Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 5: Eye Eyes Eyes Eyeing Eye Eyeing Eyes

megaflere said:
But we're remote piloting Taylor so we don't actually get much choice in what she does outside of our two actions and virtues, right? In that case that's no double edge at all.
GMs have a lot of influence over how much Virtues can cause characters to mess up, but it's not hard to come up with such scenarios. For example, suppose that a hero sees an unconscious person while chasing a villain through a burning building. High Compassion means that the hero cannot continue chasing the villain without enormous mental stress, while high Conviction means that the hero cannot stop to help the person without incurring the same. In cases of high Compassion and high Conviction, it's mental stress no matter the hero's choice.

At the moment, EOA has high Valor, high Compassion, and high Conviction, because 3 is the point where Virtues exceed the human norm. For example, a character with Valor 3 cannot back down from a challenge without incurring mental stress. Raising Temperance to 3 means that EOA will have high ratings in all four Virtues, which is more-or-less an invitation to constant stress.

In short, I'm concerned that having four high Virtues will cause EOA problems even when we are not in control and can thus mitigate the fallout to some extent.
 
Alratan said:
Once an arc, so not that frequently.
Once per arc per dot to be accurate.

To any virtue appropriate roll:
3: +3, 3/arc; This about breaks even with Willpower, so it's mostly useful for when one automatic success won't cut it, and you need to gamble to win.
4: +4, 4/arc; This starts being superior to Willpower, you would probably roll at least one success, and may win more
5: +5, 5/arc; This becomes strictly superior AND plentiful enough to spam.
 
I'm not sure now much post-Scion is Taylor is still Taylor, really.

For people voting, please recall that our swarms can now surf the internet, so it should be a free action.

We may also want to introduce Iris to Missy's powers under controlled conditions now, while we still can.
 
Creticus said:
GMs have a lot of influence over how much Virtues can cause characters to mess up, but it's not hard to come up with such scenarios. For example, suppose that a hero sees an unconscious person while chasing a villain through a burning building. High Compassion means that the hero cannot continue chasing the villain without enormous mental stress, while high Conviction means that the hero cannot stop to help the person without incurring the same. In cases of high Compassion and high Conviction, it's mental stress no matter the hero's choice.

At the moment, EOA has high Valor, high Compassion, and high Conviction, because 3 is the point where Virtues exceed the human norm. For example, a character with Valor 3 cannot back down from a challenge without incurring mental stress. Raising Temperance to 3 means that EOA will have high ratings in all four Virtues, which is more-or-less an invitation to constant stress.

In short, I'm concerned that having four high Virtues will cause EOA problems even when we are not in control and can thus mitigate the fallout to some extent.
Amd? what's to stop the hero from just grabbing the unconscious person without stopping, continue running full tilt after the villains and dump them outside the burning building in the closest safe spot? that would satisfy both virtues, or if they have High Valor and get insulted, just repay the insult by challenging them to something they take pride in so as to prove themselves superior like a game of one on one basketball/HALO, or just any number of alternate ways to satisfy the virtues. A massive Nurgle's Rot-esque plague infecting people and high Compassion and Conviction forcing you to choose between helping them and stopping the spread of the epidemic? just COMPASSIONATELY kill them to free them from their pain and end the plague.
 
1986ctcel said:
Amd? what's to stop the hero from just grabbing the unconscious person without stopping, continue running full tilt after the villains and dump them outside the burning building in the closest safe spot? that would satisfy both virtues, or if they have High Valor and get insulted, just repay the insult by challenging them to something they take pride in so as to prove themselves superior like a game of one on one basketball/HALO, or just any number of alternate ways to satisfy the virtues. A massive Nurgle's Rot-esque plague infecting people and high Compassion and Conviction forcing you to choose between helping them and stopping the spread of the epidemic? just COMPASSIONATELY kill them to free them from their pain and end the plague.
Exactly this.

Apply our stats as well. Taylor would be perceptive, intelligent and quick thinking, all of which she is at superhuman levels. Settling for the crappy outcome isn't something she needs to do as Enduring Order Administrator. The optimal outcome can be achieved yet.
 
1986ctcel said:
Amd? what's to stop the hero from just grabbing the unconscious person without stopping, continue running full tilt after the villains and dump them outside the burning building in the closest safe spot? that would satisfy both virtues, or if they have High Valor and get insulted, just repay the insult by challenging them to something they take pride in so as to prove themselves superior like a game of one on one basketball/HALO, or just any number of alternate ways to satisfy the virtues. A massive Nurgle's Rot-esque plague infecting people and high Compassion and Conviction forcing you to choose between helping them and stopping the spread of the epidemic? just COMPASSIONATELY kill them to free them from their pain and end the plague.
That's... not how it's meant to work. Virtues are meant be power with a price. You don't get to dodge the price. Your decisions have consequences, and you have to own them. It's part of the point of Exalted.
 
Heh. I can't be the only one who finds Piggot's snipes at Taylor to be incredibly annoying and infuriating? I mean, especially with the OOC knowledge available to us -- we know how Piggot and the PRT manipulated Taylor in having her join the Wards, and how they hid the full situation from us.

It's just... I don't get why Piggot (it feels like) is taking every opportunity she can to knock down Taylor. She never lets extenuating circumstances (Taylor not being at 100% in the initial meeting with the PRT; having Taylor's initial room not have computers and thus no connection to the outside world; those come to mind most) get in the way of putting Taylor down.

And, heck, it feels like she also finds things to complain about even if Taylor didn't do anything wrong. Cook something good? Take it to Tinkering review. Make poor tea? Threaten to dock Taylor's pay. Stumble upon corruption/infiltration in the PRT? Bitch about a newbie Ward not following security procedures.

Just... what really gets to me, is that it seems like Piggot feels like Taylor's entire existence is just something troublesome to her, and that Taylor's abilities (i.e. Tinkering), willingness to bend over backwards for the PRT, willingness to forgive and forget and move on, willingness to take a bullet for the other Wards, uncovering of PRT corruption/infiltration etc, are not even a positive factor to think about.

Like Taylor is... not a Ward or even a person but just a burden.

Take a bullet for a teammate during your debute? Well that's just another PR clusterfuck that Weaver is at the center at! And why the hell didn't she make sketches of the snipers ASAP? Just another irritation.

Obviously I can't get into Piggot's head for this, of course.

Maybe she got a gut feeling about Taylor that makes her think there is far more to her than meets the eye, and that that causes her to distrust Taylor.

Maybe she really is impressed by Taylor's cooperativeness and helpfulness, but that she's decided to push and test Taylor to see how she reacts and if she is really committed to the cause and so on.

Maybe she thinks Taylor's Trigger Event gave Taylor tons of neat stuff and even drastically swung her social status to boot, like as if it solved many of old Taylor's problems and improved her status all across the board, and thinks it might go to Taylor's head.

Maybe she's dealing with a lot of stress from the events that were set off by the Locker "murder" and then by the attempted assassination of Weaver.

Maybe there's just something about Taylor's personality that pisses her off.

But is it just me, or has Piggot been unusually harsh on Taylor specifically as compared to how harsh she is on the other Wards?

Is she like this to everybody?

---------------------------------

One reason to think about Occult being useful; it's probably the Ability that can tell us how our Charms work, what they can do, and how they interact with Earth physics.

And that's something that will always be handy.

And it is not something we can just leave off to Iris, because he is focusing on learning many things and because we can't telepathically talk to him and because if we ever run into a surprise or new situation and have to figure out how the mechanics interact? We're going to be relying on our knowledge of physics and Essence.

On that note... It might be worthwhile to make some kind of device, or come up with some system, to more easily communicate with Iris when we're away from him. We had a bit of figuring out how to talk to him when we weren't there in person.

Oh, and... We should also consider just asking Iris as much about Alchemical Exalted as possible. He is a major source of knowledge about Alchemical Charms. He can probably tell us all the basics about the Charms and what we can expect from them!

It would be so much more efficient for Taylor to advance her understanding of her own Alchemical self by relying on Iris, rather than just slowly discovering everything as we go along.

We've talked to him about Essence and now even stuff like geomancy for our workshop.

But how about just simply asking him to tell us as much about Taylor's Alchemical Charms, and the personal physics she runs under, as possible?

Does Taylor even know about Hardness and Ping damage being a thing yet?

For that matter... What does the Iris know about Endbringers? Especially the Simurgh. Taylor worried about the Simurgh -- and that was just when she thought she was merely an incredible Tinker!!

(Though, not quite sure how to tell the Iris in ways that don't panic him.)

Still, the Endbringers are a Big Fucking Deal, and we should prepare more for them. Or at least think more about them.

We can stunt these actions under the interact-with-Iris actions;
  • Ask Iris for help on understand what our Alchemical Charms are, do, how they work, etc. And also to understand what physics Taylor is running under, with her being Exalted.
  • Tell the Iris about Endbringers, especially our worry about the Simurgh.
Jinnt said:
I think we will have less of a problem nipping this in the bud early then leaving it to fester.
That is not how recovering and moving on from trauma works. People cannot "nip this in the bud" when it comes to problems.

Unless you consider "repressing the shit out of it and trying your best to forget it entirely" to be "nipping it in the bud".
Even if that is how Grom feels I don't actually think it HAS to be the case.
Well, IIRC it's also what current data about trauma and psychology says too.
As far as I can tell at worst we had our head equally as scrambled as it would have been by the shard and lost a few memories. The fact that Auto was also implanting a soul in us means this is as good a continuation (for lack of a better word) of self as could be hoped for. Even if we aren't 100% Taylor we should be as much of her as we still can.
Taylor's old life sucked. Thinking on it would be actively detrimental to one's mental health.

Trying to be as much the old Taylor would also be bad, because that Taylor was experiencing a year+ of bullying from her best friend. That is not a good head-space to be in.

Also, if you think that not trying to be the old Taylor as much as possible means that old Taylor is dead... what is your opinion on canon!Worm, then? Because the Taylor post-Trigger Event changed a hell of a lot from the old Taylor. By your metric, this would have been a bad thing and Taylor should have tried to be herself as much as she still could.

Except canon-Taylor distanced herself from her shitty life by trying to be a cape. She did not want to have a sucky life.
Losing all of Taylor to EOA means she definitely is dead.
As I said above -- by this rubric, Taylor in canon deciding to distance herself from her pre-Trigger life, meant that the old Taylor was dead. :rolleyes:


If we were to dwell on the old Taylor's life...

It sounds a bit like this would touch upon our Trigger Event. Because if we are focusing on "the person we were before Trigger/Exaltation", then we would also be thinking about "how the Trigger Event and Exaltation changed us".

And that's bad. It's not a good thing to focus on horribly traumatic memories or sources of PTSD.

And aside from the fact that this would be necessity touch upon the locker... ... it would also touch upon our family. Our dad -- who is now vanished -- and our mom. Who is dead. And the horrible betrayal that Emma did. And the year+ of bullying.

... Shit, I was only thinking "it might bring up bad memories because our dad has vanished and our mom died" but then I remembered "Taylor's life before the Locker was absolutely shit." That canon-Taylor actively used the idea of becoming a Cape as escapism as a way to deal with her life.

The things that most Taylor the way she is, happened in the past year-ish, and those were all really bad events. And if you go further back to when there were good things, it... still would probably be melancholy at best because we would be thinking back to times with Emma (a backstabber), our mom (dead), and dad (vanished).

-------------------------------

You know what? It might be better to not think of the old, bullied, betrayed Taylor at all.
Gromweld said:
Taylor Hebert is a cold, dead corpse in the PRT Headquarter's Morgue. You are Enduring Order Administrator, who happens to work entirely off of the soul of Taylor Hebert and possesses an identical recollection of her memories. Whether that also makes you Taylor Hebert, her reincarnation, or something else entirely is... not something I'm going to spell out.
Jinnt said:
There you go it's up to us to determine what this means about ourself. I think that means we should decide to try and be Taylor AND EOA.
Ooorrrr we could decide that the current Taylor now? IS Taylor. Is Taylor not allowed to change herself? By this rubric, any person who goes through an incredibly life-changing experience should do their utter most to be as similar to the way they were before the experience and that to do otherwise would be as if the person had died.
Instead of deliberately choosing to psychologically sabotage ourselves (which is exactly what purposefully dwelling on horrible events would do to a person) to satisfy your own perception of what personhood is.
Why can't you interpret Gromweld's statement another way?
You seem to take it as confirmation of a separation.
I, on the other hand, looked at the "work entirely off of the soul of Taylor Hebert and possesses an identical recollection of her memories" bit and concluded "Yes, we are fundamentally Taylor Hebert".
Think of what makes a person a person IRL. It's things like memories, desires, feelings, and so on. That core? It is still in Taylor Hebert.
 
uju32 said:
In Worm?
The original It Gets Worse universe?
Taylor is an Alchemical, not a Solar.
You are assuming all things will work out, when we have precog opposition both human and Endbringer.
The situation was resolved, the hero left the civilian in the safest spot they could find and went off after the evil villain, so it's up to guys neighbors/the police/other nearby heroes and such to look after the guy the hero did their part its not their problem anymore?
 
1986ctcel said:
Amd? what's to stop the hero from just grabbing the unconscious person without stopping, continue running full tilt after the villains and dump them outside the burning building in the closest safe spot? that would satisfy both virtues, or if they have High Valor and get insulted, just repay the insult by challenging them to something they take pride in so as to prove themselves superior like a game of one on one basketball/HALO, or just any number of alternate ways to satisfy the virtues. A massive Nurgle's Rot-esque plague infecting people and high Compassion and Conviction forcing you to choose between helping them and stopping the spread of the epidemic? just COMPASSIONATELY kill them to free them from their pain and end the plague.
Circumstances can be unkind.

Your proposal supposes that the hero can pick up the unconscious person without either changing course or slowing down or both while chasing the villain. Furthermore, high Valor means that a person cannot back down from a challenge. Period. Your proposal means turning down the challenge, incurring mental stress, and then launching a new challenge. Similarly, channeling Compassion to kill people is either improbable or outright impossible, barring rare exceptions such as the Neverborn.

After all, the Virtues are notoriously inflexible.
 
nyanderful said:
Why NOT dodge the price? Exalted is about taking charge of your destiny. Part of that destiny is to do the impossible in the pursuit of your values.
Exalted are allowed to try to do the impossible.

There is no guarantee that they'll succeed. Most don't.
 
Creticus said:
Circumstances can be unkind.

Your proposal supposes that the hero can pick up the unconscious person without either changing course or slowing down or both while chasing the villain. Furthermore, high Valor means that a person cannot back down from a challenge. Period. Your proposal means turning down the challenge, incurring mental stress, and then launching a new challenge. Similarly, channeling Compassion to kill people is either improbable or outright impossible, barring rare exceptions such as the Neverborn.

After all, the Virtues are notoriously inflexible.
well if you don't think mercy killing someone suffering from anything like Nurgle's Rot is compassionate well you've never heard of it, THIS is Nurgle's Rot.
 
1986ctcel said:
well if you don't think mercy killing someone suffering from anything like Nurgle's Rot is compassionate well you've never heard of it, THIS is Nurgle's Rot.
When the Primordials burned the metaphysical laws of existence into reality, the definition of Compassion they chose isn't necessarily quite what we call compassion.
 
1986ctcel said:
well if you don't think mercy killing someone suffering from anything like Nurgle's Rot is compassionate well you've never heard of it, THIS is Nurgle's Rot.
High Compassion means doing your utmost to help the sufferer. Being Compassionate (note the big C, not the little c) means doing your utmost to finding a cure, ensuring that the sufferer's affairs are in order, and then easing the pain as life comes to an end.

High Conviction, on the other hand, is fuming about you wasting valuable time that could be used to further your goals.
 
Garlak said:
But is it just me, or has Piggot been unusually harsh on Taylor specifically as compared to how harsh she is on the other Wards?

Is she like this to everybody?
As far as I can tell, from canon, she's like this to all the other Wards, all the Protectorate members, and in fact, to every single parahuman. She blames parahumans for what Nilbog's monsters did to her, and considers all of them canned hazards, ready to explode into another Nilbog given the right trigger. But she tries to at least pretend to be professional.

She is incidentally, also sour on all young people and fit people, because they have what she can't. Fitness. And the only way out is to trust her body to a young parahuman. She's not going to do that either.
 
As it may have got lost in the recurrent discussion whether to screw ourself over by buying even more excessively high Virtues, can I suggest that the people voting remember that our insects can now access the internet.

That means that if you can be bothered to write a stunt up, looking things up on the internet and doing research can be made into a free action.
 
Creticus said:
High Compassion means doing your utmost to help the sufferer. Being Compassionate (note the big C, not the little c) means doing your utmost to finding a cure, ensuring that the sufferer's affairs are in order, and then easing the pain as life comes to an end.


High Conviction, on the other hand, is fuming about you wasting valuable time that could be used to further your goals.
High compassion also means ignoring your duty in the face of the tragedy right in front of you. Sometimes that can be a good thing, but other times it just makes things even worse.

Incidentally if anyone's afraid Taylor's losing herself to EoA then you really shouldn't be voting to change any virtues at all. Every time we change those we get further away from Taylor's original personality. I'm not sure we can lower our virtues either, so there's no take backs for this.
 
Zefferen said:
Incidentally if anyone's afraid Taylor's losing herself to EoA then you really shouldn't be voting to change any virtues at all. Every time we change those we get further away from Taylor's original personality. I'm not sure we can lower our virtues either, so there's no take backs for this.
Unless we get one of the Fair Folk to eat part of her soul, Virtues, and the warping of Taylor's personality they produce, are forever.
 
How exactly does that work anyway? It just doesn't really make any sense to me. A normal human can become more compassionate or less so with time, so is it part of exaltation itself? Is it some kind of not well thought out primordial defense thing?
 
Zefferen said:
High compassion also means ignoring your duty in the face of the tragedy right in front of you. Sometimes that can be a good thing, but other times it just makes things even worse.

Incidentally if anyone's afraid Taylor's losing herself to EoA then you really shouldn't be voting to change any virtues at all. Every time we change those we get further away from Taylor's original personality. I'm not sure we can lower our virtues either, so there's no take backs for this.
Debatable. Canon!Taylor had significantly above average Compassion and Conviction, below average Temperance and average Valor. Over the course of the canon story her Conviction grew significantly(making her one of the most driven people on the planet), her Valor and Compassion grew somewhat and her Temperance more or less unchanged from where she started. Experience helped with all these.

So not that different.
 
veekie said:
As far as I can tell, from canon, she's like this to all the other Wards, all the Protectorate members, and in fact, to every single parahuman. She blames parahumans for what Nilbog's monsters did to her, and considers all of them canned hazards, ready to explode into another Nilbog given the right trigger. But she tries to at least pretend to be professional.

She is incidentally, also sour on all young people and fit people, because they have what she can't. Fitness. And the only way out is to trust her body to a young parahuman. She's not going to do that either.
you know that always bothers me about her, the capes in the operation ran because they were really just superpowered civilians with no military training who would rout when under the pressure/stress Nilbog's monsters induced. After that you'd expect her to be onto the Wards and Protectorate to train as hard as possible in powers and squad tactics and such? Basically I'd have expected her to gain a "Never again" mentality after that experience.
 
Jinnt said:
That's not what Grom has at least been hinting at though
I disagree with your interpretation of that.

From my point-of-view, when I try to figure out the ways in which you would come to your conclusion... well, when I simulate that, the situation/answer I get comes out to "Jinnt probably has a straightforward view of the event. He sees that Taylor died. Full stop. That Taylor's physical body expiring is one factor to check off on the 'a person died' list -- possibly the most important one because it pertains to continuity of consciousness -- and that because of that, Taylor now should make up for what happened. 'Make up for' in the sense of *compensate* for the change in state, that is -- I don't mean 'make up for' in the sense of 'atone'."
I also think you are missing my point somewhat I'm not saying Taylor can't change she can and should everyone changes.
I don't think I'm missing your point. I think I get your point. I just think you're wrong.
But if she gives up too much in favor of the Exalted side she isn't going to be Taylor at all she's going to be Enduring Order Administrator.
Yeah, this here is probably the main disconnect for you and me here.

You see Taylor now as "not really Taylor". You view her actions and personality as somehow "being more like somebody not-Taylor" and that this is bad, wrong, because she is 'attuning' or growing an 'affinity' for something inhuman.
I think we need to ground our self in our humanity and yes that means taking the good with the bad.
And I think that your choice is just "forcing a human being to suffer."

No, really.

That is what it comes out to me. You are literally convinced that is is better for the person Taylor is now to suffer than to not suffer. You think that a human being's well-being and suffering is of less value than of conforming to some arbitrary ideal.

Just... Think about it. You are saying that Taylor's actions now... that what she does now... that her feeling, her thinking, her socializing, her dropping spaghetti when talking to people, dealing with crushes, trying to improve and take command of her life, trying to be a hero... that all of that...

... is not part of the human condition.

That SUFFERING is more true. That arbitrary suffering is "more like, ya know... a real person. Not a fake like she is now."


That, uh... um... That's how I interpret your position.


As you can tell, I feel it is a huge slap in the face of humanity.

I feel like it actually dehumanizes people.

That it ignores the human condition in favor of just simplicity. That you're just hung up on a physical body expiring and believing that that fact overrides any other thing. That a human being can't be a human being the way we are now.

I think it makes normal -- and not so normal! -- daily life trivial.

Because, at its core, your message is that Taylor has not been human. That she's just a fake human.

And that it is preferable to inflict mental and emotional suffering on a human being (by actively trying to think about and connect to the pre-Trigger Taylor) than to let them be happy.

I don't like your conception of the human condition.


Note: I do not view my position as being pro-Exalted, pro-Enduring Order Administrator, pro-transhumanism, or whatever.

I view my position as being fundamentally pro-human. Compassion.
 
Zefferen said:
How exactly does that work anyway? It just doesn't really make any sense to me. A normal human can become more compassionate or less so with time, so is it part of exaltation itself? Is it some kind of not well thought out primordial defense thing?
Humans in Creation/Autocthonia aren't the same as humans in real life or Earth-Bet. For Creation!humans, Compassion is a real metaphysical characteristic that things in the setting can directly interact with. For example, a Fair Folk can eat it, or turn it into a physical object that you can touch. For RL!humans, compassion is an arbitrary emergent category behaviour that some cultures use as a way to measure people, with no deeper significance.

For Creation!humans, their Virtues are a fundamental defining part of their soul. Them not going down without magical intervention is part of their metaphysical nature.
 
1986ctcel said:
you know that always bothers me about her, the capes in the operation ran because they were really just superpowered civilians with no military training who would rout when under the pressure/stress Nilbog's monsters induced. After that you'd expect her to be onto the Wards and Protectorate to train as hard as possible in powers and squad tactics and such? Basically I'd have expected her to gain a "Never again" mentality after that experience.
Never overestimate human rationality.
 
Back
Top