Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 23: We Wonder Where Who Wanders When Watchers Wane

[veekie]

Are they in stasis though, or just contained? I know Gromweld stated that it forcibly keeps people alive even in cases where someone should die (so a C53 separated from his shard will die if Taylor uses optical cloak on him, but Sakis charm will keep him alive). However did he ever say that it would keep people in stasis, or just immobile? I mean if people are imprisoned, utterly immobilized, and yet fully aware and forcibly kept alive, then that would be a pretty horrific experience.

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Stasis. Remember Lord Grasp when Saki first found him? Encased in crystal, and basically time locked.

Ah, OK. Was he limited to just one possession, or was he basically just poor mans version of E5 Taylor. Regardless while nasty, its still nothing comparable to Saki being able to easily and quickly do permanent things to someone and then just leave.

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One person, he dematerializes and docks inside.
Still, fundamentally the nature of the hazard is the same, though the extent varies.

Given that all C53s are from alternate dimensions, there would be no way for PRT to check if the memories Saki restored are real or not. Yeah, it would work on known local victims, but then PRT could probably just assume that in such cases Saki was being extra carefull and not doing any obvious memory tampering.

Heck, if Saki starts restoring memories of Case53s, PRT could easily become suspicious, since all of them conveniently have recovered memories from other earths and don't have anything that could prove to the PRT that the memories are real. We know its because Cauldron has Doormaker and mostly harvested from other Earths. But if you don't know, that, it is kinda suspicious that every case of recovered C53 memory has no proof of its validity.

I dunno, I guess there could be some who bought the vial and mutated massively? But majority are probably like Prayer, and not from Earth-Bet, making independent verification impossible.

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Skills they had learned in their previous life for one. Saki cannot into skillsofts.

I don't really see the difference between it being magic or just longterm "Natural Mental Influence" (in other words, therapy).

To me, whats important is the informed consent of the patient. Who the hell cares if its "magic" (though frankly, Essence usage is arguably just a different kind of science)? So long as the guy suffering gives his free unmanipulated consent and understands whats going to happen, I see no difference between "magic" or any other treatment option.

Heck, magic is actually quite a bit better in this instance, since therapy and drugs are difficult and slow to work.

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Eh, it's mostly futile. SV's got a big Thing about sanctity of mind.

It's basically the difference between cutting out a tumor with a scalpel and transplanting a new organ in, versus making someone into Modern Art by cutting out everything.

 

[ctulhuslp]

False equivalences, given that neither involves using effective magic to effectively permanently alter someone's personality/Virtues.

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So what?
It's just the better tool for the same goal.
Believe it or nor, for a lot of troubled people small personality death is better option than living with one they were unlucky to be born with; and getting to live as stable, sane individual afterwards is pure concentrated awesome.
Altering personality is about as "murderous" as getting prosthetic hand instead of non-functional/amputated/etc one.

 

[Broken25]

Believe it or nor, for a lot of troubled people small personality death is better option than living with one they were unlucky to be born with; and getting to live as stable, sane individual afterwards is pure concentrated awesome.
Altering personality is about as "murderous" as getting prosthetic hand instead of non-functional/amputated/etc one.

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This is the kind of reasoning that eventually leads to a society where everybody gets safe, healthy, well adjusted personalities pre-designed by their benevolent Exalted overlord.

 

[ctulhuslp]

This is the kind of reasoning that eventually leads to a society where everybdy gets safe, healthy personalities pre-designed by your benevolent Exalted overlord.

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Now that's one hell of strawman slippery slope argument. So strawman I don't even need to answer, but well.
Do I really need to explain to you what is the difference between "clinically insane people can finally get guaranteed help and normal life" and "benevolent mind-controlling overlord"? Really?

 

[Broken25]

Do I really need to explain to you what is the difference between "clinically insane people can finally get guaranteed help and normal life" and "benevolent mind-controlling overlord"? Really?

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Indeed. You have to draw a line in the sand where you consider you can't go further.

And sincerely, rewriting personalities is way, way beyond that line.

It's one thing to give a couple extra of WP dots to someone with endogenomorphic depresion or blocking the memories of someone with PSTD, and a very different one to commit personality murder.

You seem to believe that informed consent allows to do anything ethically. Which is, let me tell you, wrong. There are reasons why assisted suicide is forbidden in most of the world.

(The argument is moot, anyway; Saki doesn't have neither infinite time nor Essence, and there is no point is wasting the little she has in ethically dubious undertakings).

 

[Ryune]

This is the kind of reasoning that eventually leads to a society where everybody gets safe, healthy personalities pre-designed by your benevolent Exalted overlord.

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Yes, because current psychological care is used that way today. Just because you can sculpt a mind doesn't mean you have the time, effort, or inclination to

 

[ctulhuslp]

And sincerely, rewriting personalities is way, way beyond that line.

It's one thing to give a couple extra of WP dots to someone with endogenomorphic depresion or blocking the memories of someone with PSTD, and a very different one to commit personality murder.

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Difference is rather nonexistent, because those examples were parts of person's personality too.
You could draw line in the sand on not changing already healthy people and thus make it purely healing; it would still be "personality murder", but purely beneficial one.

 

[Broken25]

Difference is rather nonexistent, because those examples were parts of person's personality too.

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Not really. Those are examples of sindromes with very clear causes, effects, and that can be treated without changing the person at large.

Deleting a persons valor to make him less prone to anger (The example that originated that discussion, nach) is a completely different thing.

 

[ctulhuslp]

Not really. Those are examples of sindromes with very clear causes, effects, and that can be treated without changing the person at large.

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Um. If they have clear effects, they have clear effects on personality, therefore they are parts of it. Causes and effects may be clear, but they are parts of what's in the head.

 

[Monotov]

very different one to commit personality murder.

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It isn't necessarily personality murder. If one can indeed murder a personality, which I don't think you can. But that's a complex metaphysical argument I don't want to have here.

You seem to believe that informed consent allows to do anything ethically. Which is, let me tell you, wrong. There are reasons why assisted suicide is forbidden in most of the world.

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While informed consent does not make doing something ethical, it can help it be ethical, which you don't seem to acknowledge. And the fact that many places forbid suicide is, in my opinion, a serious moral wrongdoing.

Also in this case, a red herring, as no suicide is occurring.

 

[Broken25]

Difference is rather nonexistent, because those examples were parts of person's personality too.

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*Sighs.*

Ok.

Example 1: Person A witness/suffer some horrible shit. He develops PSTD. POS use blocks the memories until the patient thinks he wants to confront them.

Example 2: Person B wants to rewrite his personality. He gaves consent to do this. POS craft him a different personality.

^^ Now don't tell me you don't see the difference.

 

[ctulhuslp]

Example 1: Person A witness/suffer some horrible shit. He develops PSTD. POS use blocks the memories until the patient thinks he wants to confront them.

Example 2: Person B wants to rewrite his personality. He gaves consent to do this. POS craft him a different personality.

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*shrug*
I don't see any categorical difference at all, only different degree of personality change.

 

[Vesperian]

You keep smiling, but no one can tell it's fake.

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Looks like she doesn't need the prison charm to be alone.

 

[Broken25]

I don't see any categorical difference at all, only different degree of personality change.

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So? Are you saying that the degree of change is irrelevant?

Because if you do, i refer you to my previous, humorous post.

 

[ctulhuslp]

So? Are you saying that the degree of change is irrelevant?

Because if you do, i refer you to my previous, humorous post.

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And I refer you to my answer about it being very shoddy slippery slope argument.

 

[veekie]

Running a few simple case studies on ethical use of personality adjustment.
Case 1:
-Subject: Normal person broken down by Heartbreaker into a monofocused psychopath, programmed to lethally assault any offenses against his master. Person is unable to give consent due to altered state of mind, presenting a clear and present threat to society. Original personality information unavailable or unreliable.
-Action with POS, minimal intervention: Restore virtues to human normal range, delete Heartbreaker induced intimacies. Release victim.
-Action with POS, major intervention: Restore virtues to human normal range, delete Heartbreaker induced intimacies. Attempt to restore original intimacies based on memories and records. Based on restored victim's choice, may optionally delete the period of Heartbreaker related memories and replace it with a suitable alternative agreed by the victim, to reduce risk of relapse. Release victim.
-Action without POS: Permanent incarceration as danger to self and public.

Case 2:
-Subject: Born into an abusive household, individual is raised with deliberately anti social values and inclinations. Subject is aware of the problem and seeks aid, currently under long term medication to suppress effects. Subject gives informed consent.
-Action with POS, minimal intervention: Tweak the virtues a few steps closer to their desired end state, delete problematic intimacies, add corrective intimacies to prevent backsliding.
-Action without POS: Continue chemical intervention.

There's changes and then theres changes.

 

[SwiftRosenthal]

This is the kind of reasoning that eventually leads to a society where everybody gets safe, healthy, well adjusted personalities pre-designed by their benevolent Exalted overlord.

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...And that's supposed to be a bad thing? #DesusDidNothingWrong

 

[Datakim]

Stasis. Remember Lord Grasp when Saki first found him? Encased in crystal, and basically time locked.

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Cool.

Thats actually insanely usefull. Well, it depends on how much it costs to transport people I guess, but if its not extremely expensive, it has so many potential uses. Prison and Simurgh containment ofcourse, but other things such as medical stasis and so on. I wonder if its just living things that can be put to stasis, or could other things be frozen too? Is it actual time lock or just the appearance of one? Might be interesting to experiment what the thing can do. If its an actual time lock (rather than just unconsciousness+life support), and if it can be used for things other than living things, it would have so many interesting uses.

Though I could see those kinds of things being E4 submodules.

Skills they had learned in their previous life for one. Saki cannot into skillsofts.

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True, this is a good idea. Ofcourse that assumes that PRT accepts Sakis word that she cant install skillsofts (someone certainly installed language skillsofts to her afterall).

But yeah, that would work decently atleast.

Eh, it's mostly futile. SV's got a big Thing about sanctity of mind.

It's basically the difference between cutting out a tumor with a scalpel and transplanting a new organ in, versus making someone into Modern Art by cutting out everything.

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So I see. I decided not to debate after it became obvious how utterly conflicted the views between Broken25 and me (for example) are. For example, I do believe that a terminally ill patient with nothing but pain ahead should be allowed to end her life without pain and with some dignity (to the extent death ever has it). I do believe that a person that can be considered mentally capable of making decisions should have the freedom to choose what he does with his life, so long as he causes no harm to others.

The example of Valor 5 to Valor 2 was basically a totally random one I threw up. Who knew it would cause trouble. I would have just went to Valor 4 and Temperance 2 if I had known.


I do wonder where the limit is though. We have added several dots of virtue to Taylor. Does that mean we killed her? Did we kill Saki when we boosted her valor to 2, or was it ok since it was just one dot. What if we do it again and boost her valor to 3 (unlikely ofcourse, since she is our PR specialist but in theory). That would be two dots. Would that be where Saki dies, or would she die when we reaches 3 dots by increasing her compassion further (again unlikely to happen ofcourse)?

Or would it be ok since the change was gradual? What about if people increase virtues on their own? Do they die a personality death then too? Or is it ok if a heroic mortal saves xp and buys 3 dots of valor willingly at once, or is the guy just killing himself. Poor shmuchk. Thought he was going to finally stop being a coward with his valor 1, and instead died (and paid XP for it too, truly the world is cruel!). What about if the intelligence bonus dot had won? Surely that would have been a change in how Prayer thinks and views the world. Uju, you bastard! You tried to kill Prayer! Or atleast sorta kill her, since it was just one dot so not that significant. But if you had somehow found a way to go for two or three you monster... (and yes, this is a joke).

What about Willpower? Is it not a massive change too, to take someone from low willpower to high. Should we then leave people easily mind-controlled?

What about souls!?

Surely giving someone who until then was basically a meat robot without true free will (basically almost canon after VoV incident) a soul is MASSIVELY more invasive a thing than any virtue or memory change could ever be? Does that mean we should make damn sure not a single earth!Bet human is ever not just mindraped but also soulraped by being given a soul and free will? That would surely be a spiritual violation far deeper than 3 dots of valor right? I never realised what a horrible monster I was in suggesting we give Accord a soul so he could fight the mindrape of his shard better.


I can see where this leads. It leads to me saying Broken25 is a murderer, because he killed the Broken25 from 5 years ago (and the other usual stuff like that that this kind of argument brings). Not a debate I want to have I think.

 

[lemon10]

Actually no. Pretender's possession is completely undetectable, he passed as Alexandria perfectly after some coaching.

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Objection. While his possession is normally undetectable, his possession of Alexandria wasn't.

Alexandria glanced over our ranks, and her eyes moved right past me, not even recognizing me. For the briefest instant, I met her eyes behind that steel helmet of hers, and I saw that one had a pink iris.

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Due to the fact that Alexandria was missing one eye, when she was possessed that eye appeared with a pink iris (just like Pretenders eye normally), a clear sign that Pretender was possessing her.

 

[veekie]

I do wonder where the limit is though. We have added several dots of virtue to Taylor. Does that mean we killed her? Did we kill Saki when we boosted her valor to 2, or was it ok since it was just one dot. What if we do it again and boost her valor to 3 (unlikely ofcourse, since she is our PR specialist but in theory). That would be two dots. Would that be where Saki dies, or would she die when we reaches 3 dots by increasing her compassion further (again unlikely to happen ofcourse)?

Or would it be ok since the change was gradual? What about if people increase virtues on their own? Do they die a personality death then too? Or is it ok if a heroic mortal saves xp and buys 3 dots of valor willingly at once, or is the guy just killing himself. Poor shmuchk. Thought he was going to finally stop being a coward with his valor 1, and instead died (and paid XP for it too, truly the world is cruel!). What about if the intelligence bonus dot had won? Surely that would have been a change in how Prayer thinks and views the world. Uju, you bastard! You tried to kill Prayer! Or atleast sorta kill her, since it was just one dot so not that significant. But if you had somehow found a way to go for two or three you monster... (and yes, this is a joke).

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Come on now, that's not really a reasonable argument either(pretty much a strawman really).

What I think we've concluded for Taylor is continuity of experience. People change over time, today I'm certainly more aggressive than I was yesterday due to accumulated fatigue for instance, and would not make the same decisions today as I would yesterday. But both are Me, despite the 6 hour black out in between Yesterday Me and Today Me.
The Me of today certainly looks back on teenage Me with horror, and I doubt teenage Me would agree with much of what I think now.

It's what let her definitively declare herself as the same person.
So change happens. Naturally, verbally, violently, environmentally, magically.

As such, by Taylor's understanding(broader ethical interpretations are not really the domain of this quest), POS is surgery. Intent matters. Consent matters. Context matters. Competence matters.
Degree only matters so much as to amplify how much the previous elements apply.
Subject only matters so much as how they modify consent and context.

Stabbing your friend with buzzsaw fingers is wrong.
Stabbing your friend with buzzsaw fingers to take out the bomb inside them is right.
Stabbing Noelle with buzzsaw fingers to free her victims is right.

Which is to say, Saki by these standards probably should get the background knowledge needed to certify as a psychologist and therapist to be certain that she is doing it right.

 

[Sapphite]

...Definitely seems to be part of TTS. I mean, unless there's another Scroll of Errata, Horrific Wreath has Throne Shadow Form as a pre-req,

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That's how expansion Charms work. Check out the Solar Charms in the Core book. Expansion Charms use the Exalt's hero style for prerequisites, but are not considered a part of the style itself.

and all are listed under Throne Shadow Style.

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Well, no. Throne Shadow Style is listed in the errata for Dreams of the First Age, while those three Sidereal Charms aren't. Their grouping in the Sidereal section is done to make it explicit that they're not a part of Violet Bier of Sorrows Style anymore. Here's the complete Charm tree for TSS. The best way to tell that they aren't part of the style is to see how none of the other Charms in the tree build off of them or interact with them. They are purely considered Sidereal Charms, so non-Sidereals would be able to learn TSS without worrying about them.

And Sids still being able to access them doesn't really apply too much as good a reason to not deny them to randoms practicing VBoS (which is what moving them out of VBoS would do), since they wouldn't be able to access Sid expansion Charms (or TTS without added difficulty and jumping through hoops with regards to form weapons).

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I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, but keep in mind I'm not the one arguing that the Charms were moved for mechanical balance. That was uju32.

 

[Datakim]

Come on now, that's not really a reasonable argument either(pretty much a strawman really).

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I was not really being serious there at all. I lack the knowledge, the expertise and the desire to debate this. I don't think its black and white though.

Which is to say, Saki by these standards probably should get the background knowledge needed to certify as a psychologist and therapist to be certain that she is doing it right.

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Its not impossible for her to study on the subject actually. Maybe thats something to keep in mind for a future stunt or action.

Well, if she works with PRT, she could probably mostly rely on PRT experts to help her make these kinds of determinations. Assuming the PRT comes to trust her usage of POS, they could basically call on her to help whenever theres a situation where a master victim is discovered and needs help. Or when someone seriously suspected requires more extensive verification that POS might give.

Working with and within PRT would allow her to help more people more effectively and generally help prevent her from being labeled a massive threat (obviously she is probably going to get a master rating of 10 or something), but so long as she works with the PRT, they hopefully won't hunt her down and send her to birdcage (wonder if that would hold her since her shard now uses Elsewhere for teleportation).

And sure, volunteering at hospitals (with PRT approval and cooperation) to help those seriously mentally ill and restoring memories of C53s and so on might also eventually get her a more positive reputation, if we manage to get people and PRT to trust her. Lisa is going to go nuts though.

 

[Rgal]

The greatest fear of many teenagers.
That one day you die and then your parents find your porn while gathering your effects and then you will die of shame.

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The porn that you yourself wrote.
About your parents.

 

[ctulhuslp]

The porn that you yourself wrote.
About your parents.

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Well, at least she has no parents to find it anymore!

 

[FunkyEntropy]

Not really. Those are examples of sindromes with very clear causes, effects, and that can be treated without changing the person at large.

Deleting a persons valor to make him less prone to anger (The example that originated that discussion, nach) is a completely different thing.

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We've been down this road before. Treating some with anger issues such that they irrationally lash out at any perceived slight via drug regimen vs treating it via bullshit magic isn't substantially different aside from some people going OOGA BOOGA MIND RAPE.