Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 18: Ravaging Rapscallions Rapidly Regret Regular Rampages

MRP, MIS, and SPI all require E4 and Man 5-6. Do those come pre-installed on top of POS and IRS? Are they locked until the Moebot achieves the stats at a later point (like how I assume SOPA's submodules work)? Are you house-ruling away the prereqs entirely?
That would be spoiling the surprise.
What if they don't have the manipulation for it, being charisma based?
If they're the MoeBot, they'll have the all the Attribute prereqs.
Also can you confirm the Spike's usefulness for therapy? It's been brought up a few times.
I'm not going to go into specifics regarding my opinions on the charm(s) because I don't want to taint the discussion on this just yet, but I will note the following:

The base Personality Override Spike charm draws both individuals to the mindscape of the subject, where they may talk without physical distractions. Additionally, the mindscape usually reveals subject's subconscious emotional/mental scars in a way that can be brought to the conscious mind's attention... which is pretty much the initial goal of mundane therapy sessions. If you need a visual, this is effectively the "Talk no Jutsu" cut-away effects seen in the seminal Naruto fights (Sasuke, Gaara, Obito, etc.).
 
Starmetal Caste Candidates: Miss Militia/Gallant/Inquisition/Accord
19 motes, 21 slots
Loadout said:
PARAHUMAN SHARD
Unknown: 3m

GENERAL
4th Manipulation x2: 1m
4th Charisma Aug: 1m
4th Stamina Aug: 1m
3rd Appearance Aug: 1m
2nd Intelligence Aug: 1m

SOCIAL
Unobtrusive Repartee Baffles: 2m [E2 M2 Any Social Aug]
Thousand Courtesan Calculations: 1m [E2 A3]
Emotive Esthetics of the Body Electric: 1m [E3 A4]
Conceptual Entropy Module: 1m [E3 M4]
Agenda Recalibration Protocols: 1m [E3 M5]
Radiant Iconography Display: 0m [E3 A2]
Hierarchical Dogma Lock: 0m [E1 I3]

SURVIVAL
Industrial Survival Frame:1m [E3 S4 Any Stamina Aug]
Alloyed Reinforcement of Flesh: 0m [E2 S5]

STEALTH
Integrated Artefact Transmogrifier:1m [E2 A1]
Aura Dampening Component: 0m [E2 A2]

ANALYTIC
Interpolative Syntax Emulator: 1m[E2 I2]

SPEED
Dynamic Reaction Enhancement System: 1m[E2 D3]
Incomparable Efficiency Upgrade: 0m[ E3 W5]

COMBAT 1
Aim Calibrating Sensors:1m [E2 P2]
Dedicated Harmonic Targeting:1m[E3 P3]

COMBAT 2
Perfected Lotus Matrix: 2m[E2 P2]

PANOPLY
Patriotism Provoking Display: 1m[E2 C3]
Perfected Union Patterning: 1m[E2 C3]
Motivational Vocoder: 1m[E3 C5]*
Pattern Facilitation Module: 1m[E3 C4]

*Motivational Vocoder is only really useful with it's E4 submodule.
Combat 1 applies to Ms M and Gallant, who both have shards with ranged offensive capabilities.
Combat 2 applies to Lisa and Accord, neither of whom has integral combat abilities.

And now I go to bed.
:o I didn't realize Happy Fun Spike was THAT level of hax.
POS basically means that your target cannot refuse to listen, run away or attack you to avoid social combat.
And that's without the later charms in the tree.
So yeah, it is pretty good.

Bed.
Really.
 
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That would be spoiling the surprise.
If they're the MoeBot, they'll have the all the Attribute prereqs.
I'm not going to go into specifics regarding my opinions on the charm(s) because I don't want to taint the discussion on this just yet, but I will note the following:

The base Personality Override Spike charm draws both individuals to the mindscape of the subject, where they may talk without physical distractions. Additionally, the mindscape usually reveals subject's subconscious emotional/mental scars in a way that can be brought to the conscious mind's attention... which is pretty much the initial goal of mundane therapy sessions. If you need a visual, this is effectively the "Talk no Jutsu" cut-away effects seen in the seminal Naruto fights (Sasuke, Gaara, Obito, etc.).

How does Nowhereverse/Motonic Physics interacts regarding social 'combat'?

I'm asking, since in certain situations social alchemical using charms may have less chance for success than typical oWoD character. It's problem of physics used. Social combat in Exalted is just that, combat with strict (and let's be honest, not very logical) rules. The oWoD is much less defined in that regard. Much more 'freestyle'. It you had good arguments, you could convince a person. If you did not, then not. Yes, it was influenced by stats, but really depended on roleplaying, the situation and character personality.

Here, there is a mix of interacting rules. How successful Alchemical can be in social situations? In oWoD stats and skills meant much less for social interaction than in Exalted. Taylor have little charisma and manipulation. Still, during the course of the story (both canon, and this one), she had no problem gaining friends, convincing peoples, gaining popularity, and being strong, effectively charismatic leader. I assume it was possible due to Nowhereverse physics.

Now, what does it mean for social Alchemical who uses charms and attempts to interact with people using motonic physics? Charms gives plenty of influence. But how much of potential for 'freestyle' success is lost? What is Your interpretation of it?

Also, when I look at Taylor and influence she gained in form of various types of reputation, I have a feeling, that it my be more
worthwhile way to influence general population as a whole, than charm use. Charms usualy are limited in scope, and works best for single target. Also, after Simiurg, society have allergic reaction to any attempts of mind manipulation. Social charms are form of mind manipulation. It may backfire badly.

In short, social alchemical is needed. But maybe not as much as it may seem. What's Your take on that?


EDIT - if it was answered before, please let me know.
 
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Regarding the builds and discussion for future Assembly members, some critical data to keep in mind:
- Shard-Charms will always take up 3m of the Personal Essence pool, and one Dedicated slot. They're fuck-massive resource hogs, but they're OP as all get-out so whatever.
Totally worth it, but also worth keeping in mind.


- Taylor gets to pick the new Assembly member's PRIMARY role, not any sub-roles as those are dictated by their personality and Autobot's motivations (example: Marrow).
- For your next assembly member, PR is going to be a Big Deal after all this if we don't want to just go to ground for a bit after some the shit that's going to go down at the end of the Arc. So, we can either go Social, Sneaky, or Scheming, with valid paths for each - just remember that we have about 3 months to go and each conversion takes a week off that time limit.
Right, Social definitely a thing given how we've been playing so far. We're TERRIBLE at the applied socials, due to missing key factors, misreading the situation, working from OOC prejudices, having absolutely terrible timing, trying to do multiple things at once, approaching from a completely wrong angle, etc. We only got anywhere with socials by throwing 110 xp in social skills, specialties and backgrounds, discounting Allies and exploiting that we just plain have better roll systems. We basically brute forced the problem with omakes, and bending over backwards to let the PRT media engine do it's magic. All those backgrounds are omake power.

We need social expert next more than anything else, and the favorite Scheming and Sneaky candidates need socials to ward off disaster.

- Cauldron/Eden Shards will usually veer towards replicating existing charms (and thus counting as prerequisites) since Autochthon is mostly rebuilding ("Repurposed") the broken creature/tool from the ground up to work within his themes. Scion Shards will usually work as more stand-alone creations as Autobot is converting a functioning creature/tool.
Interesting, so Eden shards will be better for stacking onto Alchemical charms, and acting as a hyperefficient Alchemical, while Scion shards would be better at providing an OCP solution to both Exalted AND Worm issues after the conversion.

Also that means Eden shards don't get unlocking hidden fun stuff I suppose?
- If an Alchemical has augmentations for all three of a class of attributes (Physical, Social, Mental), their IEU allows Earth-Bet meatrobots to play by Exalted rules for actions of that class instead of OWoD, as well as allows for them to perform minor Stunting. (For reference, Bladedancer wouldn't have been able to keep up with Marrow in the slightest without the all-Physical IEU that Marrow gave her during that whole debacle.)

Nifty, if not critical, since we're working on motonic conversion, it'd eventually be less valuable as time passes.


- IEU only has goofy interactions with Nowhereverse Shard powers, not Alchemical Shard-Charms. For example, Vista was warpin' space like a baus with Taylor's IEU, but if we converted her and Taylor hit Alchemical!Missy with IEU, then MissyBot wouldn't gain the same leap in power. This is one of the weird cases where Nowhereverse/Motonic Physics interactions favors Nowhereverse, so keep this in mind when considering whether we want to convert someone only for their powers.

Makes sense, though Autochton would no doubt optimize their shard functions somewhat.

The base Personality Override Spike charm draws both individuals to the mindscape of the subject, where they may talk without physical distractions. Additionally, the mindscape usually reveals subject's subconscious emotional/mental scars in a way that can be brought to the conscious mind's attention... which is pretty much the initial goal of mundane therapy sessions. If you need a visual, this is effectively the "Talk no Jutsu" cut-away effects seen in the seminal Naruto fights (Sasuke, Gaara, Obito, etc.).

Okay, that is good, we need some of that. Also Missy is a fairly good candidate to get the Spike, since she's more likely to use it responsibly. More than us even.

Here, there is a mix of interacting rules. How successful Alchemical can be in social situations? In oWoD stats and skills meant much less for social interaction than in Exalted. Taylor have little charisma and manipulation. Still, during the course of the story (both canon, and this one), she had no problem gaining friends, convincing peoples, gaining popularity, and being strong, effectively charismatic leader. I assume it was possible due to Nowhereverse physics.
It's possible because we're NOT charismatic, we're competent, and we only take leadership when everything has already gone to hell and they'd go with the person they need, not the person they want. If we were more charismatic we'd have control before things went to hell.

Also, when I look at Taylor and influence she gained in form of various types of reputation, I have a feeling, that it my be more
worthwhile way to influence general population as a whole, than charm use. Charms usualy are limited in scope, and works best for single target. Also, after Simiurg, society have allergic reaction to any attempts of mind manipulation. Social charms are form of mind manipulation. It may backfire badly.
This is completely wrong, as has been reinforced repeatedly. There is no special prejudice against mind affecting powers.


And Alchemical social charms in fact work best for large populations, unlike other Exalted. Their personal charms, aside from the Happy Fun Spike, mainly rely on exploiting or leveraging an individuals relationship to an organization or nation. They're far better at groups of people than single persons.

Worth noting is that even without using their charms superhuman appearance and charisma will do the trick.
 
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Starmetal Caste Candidates: Miss Militia/Gallant/Inquisition/Accord
19 motes, 21 slots
Combat 1 applies to Ms M and Gallant, who both have shards with ranged offensive capabilities.
Combat 2 applies to Lisa and Accord, neither of whom has integral combat abilities.

And now I go to bed.

POS basically means that your target cannot refuse to listen, run away or attack you to avoid social combat.
And that's without the later charms in the tree.
So yeah, it is pretty good.

Bed.
Really.

Clearly, the best thing to wire to TCC is Piston-Driven Megaton Hammer. :V

*flees*
 
Lisa/Inquisition isn't a bad choice for our next Assembly Member actually. Since we need one who's good at convincing people and she'd be good at that, especially with her power and the charms that would undoubtedly be matched to it by Autocthon.
 
Lisa/Inquisition isn't a bad choice for our next Assembly Member actually. Since we need one who's good at convincing people and she'd be good at that, especially with her power and the charms that would undoubtedly be matched to it by Autocthon.
First, we need to get her to openly and calmly speak with us. That's going to have to take place after the current siege is finally dealt with.
 
Lisa/Inquisition isn't a bad choice for our next Assembly Member actually. Since we need one who's good at convincing people and she'd be good at that, especially with her power and the charms that would undoubtedly be matched to it by Autocthon.
The problem is persuading her that it's not a complicated way of killing her. She's recoiled violently from every attempt thus far.
 
Hence the need for moebot. We need social muscle for three of our leading candidates to be viable.
Not really.
At least, we do not need dedicated social muscle to recruit candidates as things stand.

Both Vista and Who are lockins for their posts, and we're pretty firmly decided on Colin for Ori.
All are willing.
Starmetal is the only strongly debated position here.

And I will reiterate that there are multiple reasons besides her shard throwing garbage data why Lisa is not suitable for Exaltation.
Ally/tool/minion sure, but not Exalt.
 
Why is Who a useful candidate again? We already have a stealth build, so it's not her power. And Aisha's personality is ... basically shit for what we're trying to accomplish.

Not really.
At least, we do not need dedicated social muscle to recruit candidates as things stand.
You misunderstood Veekie. It's not that they need social muscle to be recruited. It's that they need it for their recruitments to be viable instead of a PR nightmare .
 
Why is Who a useful candidate again? We already have a stealth build, so it's not her power. And Aisha's personality is ... basically shit for what we're trying to accomplish.
AFAICT, her stealth likely would not stop working as soon as she hits 4 Peripheral motes, or when she attacks. Our Optical Shroud is excellent for recon, initial surprise attacks, etc. Her power can do that and more, without regard to mote expenditure.
 
First, we need to get her to openly and calmly speak with us. That's going to have to take place after the current siege is finally dealt with.
Not necessarily. One of her biggest issues seems to be that she understands too much in... some ways and entirely too little in others. She understands what Soulsteel is... but likely little else.
The problem is persuading her that it's not a complicated way of killing her. She's recoiled violently from every attempt thus far.
That's easily solved if she's in a position of a lose-lose situation.
 
Why is Who a useful candidate again? We already have a stealth build, so it's not her power. And Aisha's personality is ... basically shit for what we're trying to accomplish.
Her parahuman power is not neutralized by a flaring anima.
Additionally, she can mindwipe your short-term memory at will; in canon, she was able to do it over the phone to someone in another city.
She could interrogate you for twenty minutes and have you forget that it happened.
Alchemical!Aisha would be a terrifying infiltrator/investigator without even having to kill anyone, and there are secrets in this world that we are interested in knowing.

And that's before you add things like the combo of Optical Cloak+Hidden Assembly Conclave, which allows her to stealth a unit of up to 650 people at the same time at Essence 5.
You misunderstood Veekie. It's not that they need social muscle to be recruited. It's that they need it for their recruitments to be viable instead of a PR nightmare .
Not seeing it.

That's easily solved if she's in a position of a lose-lose situation.
No it isn't.
People kill themselves rather than face what they consider a fate worse than death.
So backing her into a corner will not necessarily yield what you seek.

Not to mention that a lose for her is a lose for US.
Panacea's stability is rather important to the world, and she is one of the two pillars on which it currently rests. So no thanks.
 
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No it isn't.
People kill themselves rather than face what they consider a fate worse than death.
So backing her into a corner will not necessarily yield what you seek.

Not to mention that a lose for her is a lose for US.
Panacea's stability is rather important to the world, and she is one of the two pillars on which it currently rests. So no thanks.
I didn't mean us backing her into the corner. I meant her being injured in a way where she has nothing left to lose if she tries the conversion. Not saying it should be our *plan* just saying it's a thing that could actually happen.
 
I didn't mean us backing her into the corner. I meant her being injured in a way where she has nothing left to lose if she tries the conversion. Not saying it should be our *plan* just saying it's a thing that could actually happen.
My point is that even in a situation like that, you can have her refuse if she thinks that Autobot is going to Master her and send her back to do his will.
Basically, a much highertech version of what Bonesaw does to her captives, and it's a trope that people would rather die than be Mastered by Bonesaw.

Or worse, she could come out of the Cradle hostile.
You don't want to deal with a hostile Thinker Alchemical.
 
My point is that even in a situation like that, you can have her refuse if she thinks that Autobot is going to Master her and send her back to do his will.
Basically, a much highertech version of what Bonesaw does to her captives, and it's a trope that people would rather die than be Mastered by Bonesaw.

Or worse, she could come out of the Cradle hostile.
You don't want to deal with a hostile Thinker Alchemical.
Eh. True enough I suppose.

Still totally possible to get her to willingly convert without a big long period to convince her if something big enough happens...
 
Still holding out for grabbing Contessa for Starmetal/Moonsilver, Legend for Jade. That's my dream.
 
You misunderstood Veekie. It's not that they need social muscle to be recruited. It's that they need it for their recruitments to be viable instead of a PR nightmare .
Correct:
Lisa - Would not join us unless under duress at present. Will become hostile and closed as an option if Aisha is converted before persuasion is accomplished. Will likely go rogue if converted under duress. Present social approach ineffective, her shard is only increasing her fears each time we try.

Aisha - Willing to join, but her brother and the Wyld Hunt will become hostile upon conversion without preparatory social influence much like Danny(and probably would team up with him given our luck). Lisa is actively working against us here unless she's convinced first. Also underaged, will suffer the same issues as Missy, without the excuse of Bonesaw's mutilation to cover her, though she could literally disappear to avoid the problem if necessary.

Colin - More than willing to join, but mentality incompatible with useful Alchemical. Is far too stubborn to convince with our social stats in a reasonable timespan. Present social approach inconclusive, he's just too damned stubborn to calibrate even with our reputation bonus and appearance thrown in. We need heavier social muscle or more time, but we do not have time.

Missy - Willing, suitable, qualified, but only slightly justifiable. Her conversion can be justified in this crisis, but will present lingering challenges unless she is capable of convincing them, fresh out of the Cradle, that this is the best course for her.

Everyone - Case 53s, Jack Slash's propaganda, Cauldron, the PRT and the government all will be asking difficult questions whoever we Exalt. So the next Exalt must be capable of answering them satisfactorily, and this is an arena where social skills are worth far more than results. Most of these are gut level emotional reactions rather than logical or results oriented, especially the Case 53s demands for conversion and the public's horrendous misconception of Autochton after Jack Slash's propaganda.
 
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Spaghetti reply.
Correct:
Lisa - Would not join us unless under duress at present. Will become hostile and closed as an option if Aisha is converted before persuasion is accomplished. Will likely go rogue if converted under duress. Present social approach ineffective, her shard is only increasing her fears each time we try.
This is literally the first time we have spoken to her since Behemoth 20, and we have explicit WoG that our naked state is exerting a significant negative malus.
At least wait until we hit her as normal before making pronouncements.

Not that I'm voting Lisa for Exaltation; too useful where she is.
Aisha - Willing to join, but her brother and the Wyld Hunt will become hostile upon conversion without preparatory social influence much like Danny(and probably would team up with him given our luck). Lisa is actively working against us here unless she's convinced first. Also underaged, will suffer the same issues as Missy, without the excuse of Bonesaw's mutilation to cover her, though she could literally disappear to avoid the problem if necessary.
Disagree.
Marrow has already executed a preparatory bombing of the relevant brains(Thank you Jack) and we hold Ally ratings for Sabah and Amy.
As long as Aisha remains enthusiastic about it, we can pull it off with minimal friction, since her guardian of record is actually alive to give medical permission.

Colin - More than willing to join, but mentality incompatible with useful Alchemical. Is far too stubborn to convince with our social stats in a reasonable timespan. Present social approach inconclusive, he's just too damned stubborn to calibrate even with our reputation bonus and appearance thrown in. We need heavier social muscle or more time, but we do not have time.
Again, I disagree;we have literally spent minutes with him since we left BB.
We invited him here specifically to impress by example, and he apparently holds a positive Intimacy towards us.
And we have a couple months yet to work.

Missy - Willing, suitable, qualified, but only slightly justifiable. Her conversion can be justified in this crisis, but will present lingering challenges unless she is capable of convincing them, fresh out of the Cradle, that this is the best course for her.
Disagree strongly.
She has Bonesaw level implants in her head, and unlike the Twins, she wasn't designed to be ambulatory; horrendous disability won't even begin to describe it.
There is a reason why Alexandria declared all captures to be effectively dead.

Everyone - Case 53s, Jack Slash's propaganda, Cauldron, the PRT and the government all will be asking difficult questions whoever we Exalt. So the next Exalt must be capable of answering them satisfactorily, and this is an arena where social skills are worth far more than results. Most of these are gut level emotional reactions rather than logical or results oriented, especially the Case 53s demands for conversion and the public's horrendous misconception of Autochton after Jack Slash's propaganda.
You are inflating the problems with the public, especially vis a vis Jack's propaganda.
Marrow's anima did us an accidental solid there by her display.

The Case 53s are likelier to be a near-term issue, but that's why we are keeping Weld and co alive.
The government? Never moves at speed, and has multiple factions; three months is more than enough time to get our ducks in a row.
Especially since we are going to be neck deep in Philadelphia/Camden's reconstruction.
Ditto Cauldron, who just threw Accord a lifeline to keep a possible line of influence.

All in all?
Significant challenges, but challenges we are already equipped to handle.
A social-specced Exalt makes things easier, but is not essential for immediate acquisition.
So I wouldn't support cramming social Charms into the next person just because.

Still holding out for grabbing Contessa for Starmetal/Moonsilver, Legend for Jade. That's my dream.
Lol.
Contessa was supposed to be Adamant; not seeing her as either Starmetal or Moonsilver.
 
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Given our track record with social challenges that aren't a general "look better" option, I wouldn't bet on it, particularly when Missy already has a high compatibility with social role(good socials for Worm, heroic track record and experience, one of the few people we could actually trust to use the Spike responsibly, returning from worse than dead to be Better)

The only other role she's as suited for is mass combat support(which coincidentally, share their Augmentation prereqs with the social charmset), and with PRT limitations on Wards, regular combat charms will have limited payout most of the time, especially with FPoP as our heavy hitter already. Our team needs psychological healthcare EXTREMELY badly, especially when they've been taken by the S9, I wouldn't be too surprised to see suicide or early retirement as a result of their ordeal.


Not to mention
- For your next assembly member, PR is going to be a Big Deal after all this if we don't want to just go to ground for a bit after some the shit that's going to go down at the end of the Arc. So, we can either go Social, Sneaky, or Scheming, with valid paths for each - just remember that we have about 3 months to go and each conversion takes a week off that time limit.

Missy with Social - Compatible, already Team Therapist without powers.
Missy with Sneaky - No particular affinity with stealth observed, she's decidedly a large scale action girl.
Missy with Scheming - Good mind with strategy as observed.

Or we could go to ground and face even more challenges.
 
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