Yes. Yes it would. Even putting aside the 6 figure murder - which you cannot actually put aside because it's HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE - I do not think this actually gets them what they want.
Indeed. They think there liberating the west at least partially from greed fueled conflict over it's wealth, when in reality there just creating a power vacuum that thousands of powerful figures in the west will escalate the existing conflict to try and fill.
 
Yes. Yes it would. Even putting aside the 6 figure murder - which you cannot actually put aside because it's HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE - I do not think this actually gets them what they want.
Yeah. This Solar plan is an idea that's kind of myopic. It's myopic in an understandable way, because it's striking back at an oppressor and thinking that the world is better with them gone, but assumes that the collateral damage is justified because the intent is noble and willfully shutting their eyes to the fact that the West's issues aren't all spun off of "House Peleps exists". The more holistically the plan is considered, the worse it is for them.

Those hundreds of thousands of people were born into this society, raised in it, and generally believe what they've been told about the Immaculate faith and the Perfected Hierarchy. They're mostly trying to be good by their own lights, and they're certainly not suffering to the degree that death is a mercy. Although the Realm Civil War could very easily change this, at the moment and historically they've had good access to food, shelter, education (Realm-approved), and the little things that make life rich. Friends, family, shared moments, and entertainment within their community.
 
So, speaking frankly about this in a way I want to get to more organically as we go, like, Grace is obviously Bronze Faction. (Shocking, I know, given that the topic is called A Vision in Bronze). That is, she is aligned with the largest part of the Sidereal Host, who have been engaging in the political project of shoring up and supporting the Realm for its entire history. The why of that has a few complicated reasons -- for Grace personally, though, the biggest one is just that she was born in the Realm.R egardless, though, like, what is Grace's job? The Factional stuff is just like, the way that they think is best to carry that out. Let's go back to fundamentals

As a Sidereal, she helps to ensure that the destinies foreseen in the Loom of Fate and planned by the Bureau of Destiny come up pass, because doing so reinforces the fabric of reality, and falling to do so makes things get fucky and chaotic. It is also her job to safeguard the integrity of Creation. There are other things, but those are the most relevant ones. As a Joybringer in particular, the Division of Serenity is responsible for planning out relationships that matter to destiny -- certain romances, marriages, the happiness or lack of happiness of particular people, friendships etc. We can assume that heaven has any number of destinies planned that intersect with Bittern, people who live in or visit Bittern, people in the surrounding Blessed Isle or in the West who travel to or trade with Bittern or who will just be affected by its violent destruction. This is before we even consider what House Peleps does next, which will probably be fucking unhinged in its own right.

These two sailors are supposed to fall in love. This particular patrician man is supposed to have his heart broken and become a great poet. The marriage of these two regular fucking people from Bittern's working class districts is supposed to produce a child who will grow up and one day be one of the greatest mortal glass blowers in the Realm. A petty official is meant to not find happiness in their wonton corruption, and eventually to retire and find a different life. Destiny does not care about literally every single thing that happens to everyone, but there are specific moments and people who are very impactful to specific destinies.

When a powerful Exalt or group of Exalts decides to, say, unilaterally destroy a major city and murder hundreds of thousands of lives, all that is cast into chaos, all these destinies are fucked up, will never be realised, these people die when they're not supposed to, a nexus of fucking terror and human misery spreads out from there, affecting the plans of all five Bureau of Destiny Divisions, to say nothing of most other heavenly bureaus in some way. As has been mentioned, a shadowland probably opens -- a hole torn into the fabric of Creation, where it now merges with the Underworld, and probably a really bad one. The Immaculate Order as well as Heaven will have a bitch of a time stopping that from solidifying and getting it to close again.

Sometimes, unfortunately, a city is simply destined to be destroyed. It's foreseen in the Loom, there's no way to avoid it, or its survival is associated with worse outcomes. There's no version of events where everyone gets to be happy and prosperous. That is not the case with Bittern, and it is no part of Grace's job to just let people with a particular axe to grind against the Realm do this.
 
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like, Grace is obviously Bronze Faction. (Shocking, I know, given that the topic is called A Vision in Bronze).
*Gasp*

*Dropped teacups and fainting*

As a Joybringer in particular, the Division of Serenity is responsible for planning out relationships that matter to destiny -- certain romances, marriages, the happiness or lack of happiness of particular people, friendships etc.
Can we do some shipping in this story then? I think it would be pretty fun!

Sometimes, unfortunately, a city is simply destined to be destroyed.
I thought Destiny played out according to the political desires of the gods and sidereal involved in the commity meetings.

Which are only theoretically related to the most optimal outcome for creation? (Aside from helping creation continue to exist. Which is great!)

Is Fate an objective moral good for our purposes or...?

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As an example.

Rather than the destruction if a city being necessary. It could be written into fate simply because Amoth City Smiter really wants more ruins to lord over?
 
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I thought Destiny played out according to the political desires of the gods and sidereal involved in the commity meetings.

Which are only theoretically related to the most optimal outcome for creation? (Asode from helping creation continue to exist. Which is great!)

Is Fate an objective moral good for our purposes or...?
Destinies can't just literally be whatever the gods want, they're based on what is possible from the material situation on the ground and what is foreseen in the Loom. They're chosen from among the possible future that the Loom can foresee, based on what is most feasible to bring about in addition to what various figures in heaven want on a more petty political basis. "Objective moral good" does not matter for this part, and that is not what I said. At scale, destinies being realised and woven into the Loom of Fate is good for Creation, and having them not be realised and snarling the Loom is very bad.

Fate does not really have a moral element like that, it's like, the fabric of Creation, how shit works.
 
Sometimes, unfortunately, a city is simply destined to be destroyed. It's foreseen in the Loom, there's no way to avoid it, or its survival is associated with worse outcomes. There's no version of events where everyone gets to be happy and prosperous. That is not the case with Bittern, and it is no part of Grace's job to just let people with a particular axe to grind against the Realm do this.
So the Sidereals are just hypocrites.
 
Can we do some shipping in this story then? I think it would be pretty fun!
Shipping, anti-shipping, and friend-shipping, and rival-shippig are all on the table. I'm willing to do what I have to try and get Yula and Simendor Deizil into a verbal spar.

Also like, Ledall Anay Idelle needs to chill out. I'm not sure what sort of shipping would actually accomplish this, but assuming 3rd wheeling to Deizil and Keric hasn't driven her half mad already, it's a goal which can only benefit the realm and Idelle herself.

The Last Daughter fans may riot if we don't get an emotional tear jerker interlude between V'neef Ambraea and one or both of her two lovers, or possibly three lovers depending on how much she has associated with Sesus Kasi following her adoption.

I will persist in believing Lohna isn't to old to have inspired the adoration of some love struck fool.

Last but not least, Randen Huwen has yet to be more than mentioned, denying us adorable, adorable scenes of him being an awkward bookworm smitten with the realms most adorable Necromantic Cinnamon Bun. This is a blasphemy against all creation which we cannot allow to stand.
 
It's usually going to matter more for the Division of Battles, or the Division of Endings. You can't be responsible for trying to guide the outcome of wars without some cities getting sacked. Sometimes Grace is told to make sure a marriage happens, sometimes she's told to make sure it fails, that's not hypocrisy.
 
It is a job

Ensuring cities get sacked or marriages end sounds like a depressing job admittedly

I wonder how high the turnover rate in the Division of endings is
 
It's usually going to matter more for the Division of Battles, or the Division of Endings. You can't be responsible for trying to guide the outcome of wars without some cities getting sacked. Sometimes Grace is told to make sure a marriage happens, sometimes she's told to make sure it fails, that's not hypocrisy.
If they are destinies visualized by such an all-powerful artifact like Loom of Fate, why do they need Sidereal intervention to be realized? Like I can get the fact that some entities fuck with fate just by existing, like Solars, and them deciding to destroy a city requires intervention to make sure all those destinies remain in line, but we have literally seen in the previous quest Grace intervening to realize some destinies where no such fate-defying entity was operating. So, why doesnt all these destinies get auto-completed instead of needing manual input?
 
It is a job

Ensuring cities get sacked or marriages end sounds like a depressing job admittedly

I wonder how high the turnover rate in the Division of endings is
Low. The gods involved are either specifically formed for it or managed to luck into a job that opened from one of them dieing when their unemployment rate is at least 25% from how many old positions are no longer needed. Meanwhile, the divisions can't afford to let one of their 20 Sidereals go under anything but the most extreme circumstances.
 
It is a job

Ensuring cities get sacked or marriages end sounds like a depressing job admittedly

I wonder how high the turnover rate in the Division of endings is
Considering their exaltation mean there ability pursue other careers and establish themselves as anything than a member of the Bureaucracy is doomed in general, as well as the curse encouraging the towards celestial hubris, I imagine turn over is rather low. Though Sabbaticals to destress and reconnect with creation probably have a fairly streamlined process.
 
If they are destinies visualized by such an all-powerful artifact like Loom of Fate, why do they need Sidereal intervention to be realized? Like I can get the fact that some entities fuck with fate just by existing, like Solars, and them deciding to destroy a city requires intervention to make sure all those destinies remain in line, but we have literally seen in the previous quest Grace intervening to realize some destinies where no such fate-defying entity was operating. So, why doesnt all these destinies get auto-completed instead of needing manual input?

Something to keep in mind is that the Loom was intended to work with the Five Maidens serving as an integral component and overall supervisors. This isn't possible now as they are absent due to either addiction to the Games of Divinity or the Law of Diminishment depending on the edition.
 
If they are destinies visualized by such an all-powerful artifact like Loom of Fate, why do they need Sidereal intervention to be realized? Like I can get the fact that some entities fuck with fate just by existing, like Solars, and them deciding to destroy a city requires intervention to make sure all those destinies remain in line, but we have literally seen in the previous quest Grace intervening to realize some destinies where no such fate-defying entity was operating. So, why doesnt all these destinies get auto-completed instead of needing manual input?
Because the Loom can only do probabilistic nudging. Everything else it needs gods to do. What they can't or what's so serious nobody else can handle, Sidereals do according to triage. This is all detailed thoroughly in their 3e book.
 
If they are destinies visualized by such an all-powerful artifact like Loom of Fate, why do they need Sidereal intervention to be realized? Like I can get the fact that some entities fuck with fate just by existing, like Solars, and them deciding to destroy a city requires intervention to make sure all those destinies remain in line, but we have literally seen in the previous quest Grace intervening to realize some destinies where no such fate-defying entity was operating. So, why doesnt all these destinies get auto-completed instead of needing manual input?

Free will.

Having power like the Exalted do means you can defy fate and your material circumstances in a much wider variety of ways than a normal mortal might be physically capable of, but even a humble farmer is capable of deciding to just not play along with what the giant prediction engine thinks is the most likely outcome.
 
As Mothematics said, ideally you have gods who can help take care of things when the humble farmer gets ideas, and most of the time that's true, the humble farmer can only do so much. But sometimes it's enough of a problem that you need a Sidereal there. Sometimes, the humble farmer has been possessed by a ghost, sometimes a spirit is engaging in corruption on the side, sometimes Exalts are involved, like with a lot of things involving the Dynasty. At a certain point, you escalate to a Sidereal.
 
If they are destinies visualized by such an all-powerful artifact like Loom of Fate, why do they need Sidereal intervention to be realized? Like I can get the fact that some entities fuck with fate just by existing, like Solars, and them deciding to destroy a city requires intervention to make sure all those destinies remain in line, but we have literally seen in the previous quest Grace intervening to realize some destinies where no such fate-defying entity was operating. So, why doesnt all these destinies get auto-completed instead of needing manual input?
We also know that there are areas/beings outside of Fate (primarily Fae, Yozis, Neverborn etc) as well as beings who can affect Fate unintentionally (essence users, most notably the various Exalted) so manual intervention is required to try ad nudge things back on course. Think of it as Sidereals debugging Creation.
 
Shipping, anti-shipping, and friend-shipping, and rival-shippig are all on the table. I'm willing to do what I have to try and get Yula and Simendor Deizil into a verbal spar.

Also like, Ledall Anay Idelle needs to chill out. I'm not sure what sort of shipping would actually accomplish this, but assuming 3rd wheeling to Deizil and Keric hasn't driven her half mad already, it's a goal which can only benefit the realm and Idelle herself.

The Last Daughter fans may riot if we don't get an emotional tear jerker interlude between V'neef Ambraea and one or both of her two lovers, or possibly three lovers depending on how much she has associated with Sesus Kasi following her adoption.

I will persist in believing Lohna isn't to old to have inspired the adoration of some love struck fool.

Last but not least, Randen Huwen has yet to be more than mentioned, denying us adorable, adorable scenes of him being an awkward bookworm smitten with the realms most adorable Necromantic Cinnamon Bun. This is a blasphemy against all creation which we cannot allow to stand.
V'neef Datingfisch Dartingfish needs to have a happy marriage!
To some Dynast who genuinely loves (& is loved by) him.
Love build in an arragend marriage or whatever.

Just a happy marriage of kindred hearts so happy and sappy and sweet the Joybringers sometimes just watch to get diabetes from it.


Stricken through:
Autocorrects opinion on it.
"dating" is a common anglicism in german and "Fisch" is german for fish.
I have no idea where autocorrect got the idea for that from, I don't think I have ever used the word "Datingfisch".
 
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So the Sidereals are just hypocrites.
I think it's more like they're hypocrites in the sense that... well:

>Singular Grace: "And that concludes my report. I can't believe that those Solars were so cavalier about throwing away so many lives just to strike a blow against their enemies. I can't imagine destroying a city like that, treating the carnage and destruction as a matter of course. They really are monstrous."
>Chejop Kejak, architect of the Usurpation: "I agree completely."
 
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