Thoughts on a different matter tho---even if we don't immediately bumrush ourselves to getting another Imperial purchase for SORD (i really want Pillars first), I'd put my money on A-DS instead of F-DS. F-DS is like...budgeted SORD Praxis, and we'd be better off with the latter since it builds up on Cut Through shenanigans. Seeing as we're bound to be fighting off a bunch of other shmucks that would make use of the entirety of the Temple as their weapon, Guile-Defeating would be a fine purchase.
If was get Crimson here we will not get a Sword purchase until after we get an Evening Sky one. I'll push Pillars, other will push Eclipse, and we may have another available when this happens. We can't sustain 8 arete/update. I doubt I'm the only one burned out. Unelemental's one was insane, among others.

So we have a bit before that comes up again.

Especially since I am *not* for rushing another EFB while at the temple. There's just no reason to - Pillars will have nearly a month before we can make use of it, as it's too late to get it before the next New Moon baring something very unexpected, and Total Eclipse is a Long-term EFB so not what we need at the present time.
 
All I'm saying is that with regards to the 'S'-word for our build, A-DS would help us out more long term. So if we end up needing a more utility/additional effect EFB for the sword, which we eventually will if we somehow have any plans for Squared Trinity, A-DS > F-DS due to Praxis.

I'm still sticking to Pillars > 2 other EFBs > Ruling Ring at the moment.

From what we know, it'll probably be Pillars > A-DS/Once and Future > Evening Sky that focuses more on Majesty/Space concept > Ruling Ring unless we get more information on the available EFBs.

And that's not taking into consideration the voterbase going for the Relationship EFBs...which would probably be SUCJ > Gisena EFB > Gorge/Aeira EFB.
 
If was get Crimson here we will not get a Sword purchase until after we get an Evening Sky one. I'll push Pillars, other will push Eclipse, and we may have another available when this happens. We can't sustain 8 arete/update. I doubt I'm the only one burned out. Unelemental's one was insane, among others.

So we have a bit before that comes up again.

Especially since I am *not* for rushing another EFB while at the temple. There's just no reason to - Pillars will have nearly a month before we can make use of it, as it's too late to get it before the next New Moon baring something very unexpected, and Total Eclipse is a Long-term EFB so not what we need at the present time.
In a way it's kind of freeing. Not having to save means we can spend Arete on stances or other misc offerings that cost significant Arete.
 
For the proponents of the Ruling Ring, I'll note that the Three Forebear EFB brings you significantly closer than going from Crimson Flare into the Trinity Special Advancement. Either way, there will be one EFB between you and your goal but the latter is massively incentivized to buy more Rank through Once and Future, which would effectively win us this task by itself. Meanwhile, the Triple Forebear EFB is very power focused and would like to pick up Ruling Ring for both the potential it provides in its own right and the accelerated access to the Imperial Praxis. It's also by far the most prepared to face the contest of primacy, with immense supernal might, resistance to esoteric effects and Willpower through Praxis effects.

As for Not Dying Gang, what do I even have to say? All-Defeating Stance was already stated to be massive overkill for one of the Temple's mightiest luminaries. The resistance to all forms of lateral assault and mitigation of the Apocryphal are simply the cherries on top. Crimson isn't even directly relevant here and much of its power is gated behind defeating the Temple, which would be too little and too late. The choice is clear.

For the Mage voters out there, neither path is particularly likely provide you an EFB, if that's what you seek. However, the Blade lacks the utility of Crimson Flare and is thus is forced to turn to Edeldross. To see continued investment there and not in the powers of Blood, the Blade is likely your best bet (to say nothing of the Praxis). It's not as though a sword can uplift or heal after all! Crimson Flare would instead render Edeldross largely redundant outside of its attribute multipliers. I think it deserves better than to be relegated to that fate, don't you?

To those of us concerned with the moral dimensions of our character, while much has been made of the conquest and might of the Forebear, we've failed to truly acknowledge the genuine affection he feels for his companions. Could someone with something as selfless as What Rains May Come truly be evil? Consider the ethos of that technique: "I will bear your burdens and destroy that which burdened you." Is that not care, if through the idiosyncratic lens of the Forebear? Is it not love? To say nothing of Undying Vanguard; he would sooner die then see his companions fall in battle. For someone who has lost as much as Hunger, that is a worthy ideal to follow.

The Forebear is not cruel because he has no need for cruelty. Why be brutal when you could be kind if the outcome is inevitable either way? In a world like this, mercy is a luxury of the mighty. Would we have had to kill Vanreir if we were stronger? No, we could have peacefully subdued him and directed his genuine heroism to a more worthy task than the subjugation of the moon-mad. He deserved better than the die for the wretched, greedy ingrates of the Inner Temple. Should we fail to negotiate with the High Marshall, shall we put this kindly grandfather to the sword as well? Because if we triumph, that is the likely outcome without the might necessary to fight without the intent to kill.

I don't say all this because I'm particularly biased here; I would be happy with Crimson Flare as well (I voted for it, after all!). But for our current circumstances, I genuinely do think All-Defeating Stance would be superior in the short term and that the long term results wouldn't be unpleasant for any of the major constituencies of this quest.

EDIT: Wording changed for clarity
 
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Pillars or Eclipse would be the next EFB, presumably. After that, I suspect people are going to want to heavily invest towards Once and Future as a means of bridging the gap in our Rank since we're clearly seeing now how much of a boon & detriment a 2 Rank differential can be.

If we don't go for OaF though, I suspect we're going to be investing in a number of 2 & 7 arete options for the Praxis. For the power, the thematics, or the lore, if not all of them at once.
 
Amg, something my addled brain told me before solid consciousness settled in.

One of the probable reasons as to how we're all somehow generating this much Arete is because we feel each increment more than we did for Beyond Points. In that, we feel the results of our efforts more strongly per update in the form of seeing the Arete Counter go up as compared to the Arete Options that become purchasable.

Woo. Time for coffee.
 
One of the probable reasons as to how we're all somehow generating this much Arete is because we feel each increment more than we did for Beyond Points. In that, we feel the results of our efforts more strongly per update in the form of seeing the Arete Counter go up as compared to the Arete Options that become purchasable.
I think it's more sheer desperation than anything else, for this update.
 
- A Simple Transaction -
- I -

Every story spoken has been spoken before.

The boy from Earth stumbles into another realm. A world of wonder and magic, suffering beneath the Tyrant's cruel yoke. The boy becomes a man, the man becomes a hero, the hero defeats the Tyrant, and all live happily ever after. So destiny has decreed.

But the Tyrant is not so easily overcome.

So the story with something familiar to a lot of us. It's a plot that crops up a fair bit in Isekai nowadays, all though aesthetically I think it ends up having a lot of commonality with portal fantasies as well. Lord Hunger's ordeal initially seems like a reverse in many ways of Nameless'. Rather then a cruel overlord meant to prop a unjust stagnating society built on a edifice of oppression and exploitation, this time our main character would play the part of the hero meant to tear said Tyrant down. Destiny even saw fit to set him up with a happy ending for all his hard work once he was done.

In fact, if someone were to tell me this was some earlier era of of the EFB world where the fates weren't quite as cruel or that The Tyrant was a overlord, with Hunger being a Age of Glory pick like the rubric guy the elves summoned, I wouldn't be terribly surprised. Arete even sounds like a magic system that Summer would instill in the world and given his desire to break down the old social orders while promoting learning, Hunger seems like someone I could see Autumn backing. I highly doubt this is the case however.

The next line after the summary I think is fairly evocative and does a good job of making you envision the Tyrant as a true threat. I'll dig into that later on, but I wanted to make a point of saying how it really grabbed my attention on the first go through.

One thing I will say though is that i'm kind of curious if it Hunger ever thinks about his home planet. He doesn't seem to really talk about it overly much. He left at a fairly young age and I wonder if he ever thinks about what became of the people he knew or what his life might have been had he stayed. Was he like Seram at first, frustrated with his mundane life and eager to take a chance in a different world with a different set of rules where he was told he was guaranteed victory? When the Tyrant was slain and the family he had built here along with him, did he ever consider finding a way back to Earth to be with the family he left behind?

I think Hunger ending up their is a bit of a tragic tale for him, but he was a man who didn't seem like he could stomach injustice, something our own world has no lack of and is just as likely to horribly punish you for seeking to correct. At least in the one he ended up in Lord Hunger had a chance to do a lot of good thanks to his talents. Most of the problems we have here can't just be sworded away. Plus, at least now the Accursed has given a chance to right wrongs one more time and earn his happy ending.


He is wise to destiny's tricks, greater than destiny's stewards. He sets the world spinning to the direction of a new master. Destiny falters; only causality remains. And mere causality does not suffice a hero from coddled Earth to stand against the Tyrant.

The hero fails, time and again. The people of the world suffer for his impudence. He loses an arm, an eye, half a lung, all the natural vigor of his youth. The companions with which he journeyed become a procession of the dead. His quest, prophesied as the dalliance of a season, becomes a grim slog of years.

There is no certainty of victory; barely any chance of it. But the hero's heart is full of hate, and it is much too late to stop.

He learns from his enemy. Mirrors the monster's unmerciful cunning, turns to those forbidden arts his long-dead mentors warned him against. Finds in them, at last, an arena in which his talent exceeds his adversary's.

Years more of preparation, to realize the power that talent portends. Time bought dearly with the blood of his allies, a patchwork insurgency of the desperate and condemned. In sparse moments, the hero and his surviving companions carve out a life for themselves, stealing what joy they can. The long, bitter path of his journey trudges towards culmination.


The fact that The Tyrant literally shattered destiny once it had decided that his downfall needed to happen only helps sell this guy as overwhelming opposition. It's like if Sauron had managed to smack around the Maia by the time Gandalf had just left the shire with Frodo. I've considered the possibility that these stewards of destiny are the same as the Hidden Masters that orchestrated Hungers own's downfall, but I have my doubts that Hunger could have eclipsed him in power at the final battle if that was the case. Then again, I suppose it did take the Forebear's sword shattering to take him down at the height of Hunger's power,

Anyway, I'm pretty impressed kept soldiering on. He was told that he would secure victory against the tyrant in a few months, but years passed by. He began to lose his body, his comrades died in droves. No power he was told was worth seeking was enough to come close to closing the gap in all those years. At a certain point, it would have been hard to blame him for simply giving up and disappearing into the crowds of commoners. Under the yoke of the tyrant it certainly wouldn't have been a good life, but I imagine it would have been a much safer one. I don't think I could have blamed him if he did. I've worked hard for things in my life and sacrificed stuff that was important to me, but not to this extent. All most people end up being able to do irl is be a good person in a not so good world. That he kept on fighting and eventually found a path to exceed the Tyrant is a admirable trait, part of why I'm so up on his chances in this coming update.


One final sally against the Tyrant. As before, their powers are unevenly matched. But for the first time, that imbalance is in the hero's favor.

And yet even that is not enough. The gap in power does not suffice to overcome the gulf of skill still between them. There is no more time. There are no more chances.

The killing stroke descends. The hero's final companion throws herself into its path. The hero becomes a widower.

In the Tyrant's implacable guard, a momentary opening appears.

Burning selfhood like tallow, the widower mounts one final onslaught. In his eyes there is no more victory, no dreams more of failure or success. Only the enemy which must be destroyed, no matter the cost.

The widower prevails. The Tyrant is no more. The peoples of the world celebrate their liberation. Joy and adulation rain upon their silent champion, who stares ahead unblinking.

After the parade the widower buries his wife and their unborn child. It is eleven years to the day since he arrived in this world.


Finally, it pays off. Over a decade of fighting a seemingly hopeless battle, of desperate retreats and skirmishes for pitiful gains where his friend died in droves. All to secure this one moment. I wonder how Hunger must have felt when he finally went up against the Tyrant. Was it elation at finally feeling like he had a chance at victory, or frustration that even after attaining so much raw power their was still such a gulf between them that he couldn't push the Tyrant around as easily as he did when positions were reversed.

A part of me also wonders if the current Lord Hunger would have any chance against him given his current state, assuming we get Flare and Shadowcord. Rank can do a lot against unranked opponents, and Letz Sharpbright I think should make her a better pilot. If I had to make a plan, it'd probably be her distracting him in her mech, With Gisena in there as well to nullify exotic attacks, the cutest merc ever could help conceal us for a chance to get the Tyrant in a sneak attack. Between heavy buffs and debuffs, maybe it would work.

Crippled by the effulgence of that final strike, the widower is a pale shadow of his prior self. But in the eyes of the people, he is still the hero that was; their protector, their shining knight, their salvation, howsoever delayed though it may have been. And, with the passing of seasons, a glimmer of hope arises in the hero's heart. That, though the cost was ruinous, more than he could bear, there was good in the world still waiting to be fostered.

Freedom, Justice, Truth. In time, democracy. A society with the power and wherewithal to be organized around its highest ideals, rather than brute necessity. It is what they would have wanted - and if he no longer wields a hero's strength, still he has a hero's influence.

But the world did not sit idly while he mourned. The kings and dukes who fought aside the hero have filled the vacuum of power left by the Tyrant. And they are content with the system at hand. Theirs is a society of nearly faultless structure, stably and evenly arranged. Their yoke is light, the people are fed. Is that not justice? There is no place here for the instruments of modernity, much less its frivolous ideals.

The hero is not dissuaded. Too many have died for him to surrender this dream. In that resolve the nobility see the beginnings of a Tyrant by a different name. They act. Treachery achieves what all the overlord's power could not: the hero undone at last. Discarded by those who had no more use for him.


Once again you see his determination shown here. He's lost the people he's loved and his power, arrayed against the material interests of powerful people in the world. Yet he still works tirelessly to get them to accept reforms that could change the lot of normal people for the better.

That line about the nobles seeing the beginning of the Tyrant in the hero is probably just what they've done by painting Hunger as morally equivalent, but it does make me wonder if the Tyrant ever had sympathetic motivations for his reign of terror.

In the hero's final moments, despair and hate raging equally across his heart, comes a being with the form of a man, offering vengeance in the form of a bargain.

The being is power beyond measure, beyond the hero's wildest reckonings, the solemn steady heartbeat of all creation, the sword by which all stories would end.

"Are you the-"

The man cuts him off with an upraised hand. "No, I'm not the Devil, nor am I associated with any that claim to be him. There will be no souls, no contracts, no signing in blood. My offer is that of a simple transaction. I am bound by countless Curses, leaving me greatly diminished, a thin figment of what I once was. Take up a portion of my burdens, and in exchange receive a fraction of my power."

Power enough to escape this world, or remake it. This he understands without speaking. Even knowing this, he can not help but dislike the being. If this Accursed one had deigned to act sooner, could his wife and son have been saved?

But it had not, and mere dislike means nothing.

What else is there to say?

"I accept."

Mournfully the being closes its eyes. "So be it."

"If you wish only to survive," it continued, "I will grant you a modest portion of my burdens, and power enough to be free of this realm and its shackles. But if you seek vengeance against the powers truly responsible for your suffering here, then you must take on a far more onerous burden. In exchange, you will receive the power of unbounded progression, growth without limit or surcease."


People mistaking the Accursed for the devil will never get old. The fact he says it in almost the exact same way he tells this to Seram makes me think it's a line he has to use a lot. Though that that Hunger would even ask that in a seemingly serious way makes me curious about his religious leanings. Anyway, considering Accursed's reaction to us taking feeling being a bit of happiness, and going for vengeance being much more solemn, i'm starting to get the feeling he gives these choices to people partially out of sense empathy for his fellow man. It's hard for me to imagine someone who would sacrifice as much as the Accursed has, even for outside power, for no external motivation and I believe Rihaku has mentioned before he spends a lot of time fucking up a bunch of cosmic horrors.
****

Only about 1302 words. Though haven't reacted to the voting options. Hoping to do this with the rest of the updates when I get a chance. I'd be happy if this ends up helping us a bit before the fight.
 
A Potential-Type Cursebearer already has a potential of 'Yes', and as Rihaku said before, 'more power' is almost always correct for Potential-Type Cursebearers, even as 'more potential' is almost always correct for Combat-Type Cursebearers.

Plus like, it would be nice not braving % death every update in the name of greed.
 
Plus like, it would be nice not braving % death every update in the name of greed.
That's primarily a result of people taking dangerous options, rather than our build. I suspect even if we made our build ideal we'd still end up with a death chance because people will decide "I want to explore this dragon's mouth from the inside!"
 
That's primarily a result of people taking dangerous options, rather than our build. I suspect even if we made our build ideal we'd still end up with a death chance because people will decide "I want to explore this dragon's mouth from the inside!"
That's incorrect, like saying a spaghetti is made from sauce and sauce alone. One needs pasta and sauce, and without either one cannot have spaghetti.

And in this case it's greed and taking dangerous options.

There's also the fact that we'll probably have to kill a nice grandpa if we go Crimson and it devolved into a fight.
 
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The Forebear is not cruel because he has no need for cruelty. Why be brutal when you could be kind if the outcome is inevitable either way? In a world like this, mercy is a luxury of the mighty. Would we have had to kill Vanreir if we were stronger? No, we could have peacefully subdued him and directed his genuine heroism to a more worthy task than the subjugation of the moon-mad. He deserved better than the die for the wretched, greedy ingrates of the Inner Temple. Should we fail to negotiate with the High Marshall, shall we put this kindly grandfather to the sword as well? Because if we triumph, that is the likely outcome without the might necessary to fight without the intent to kill.
How do you draw might from inevitability when you lack the will to destroy that which opposes you? Supreme power may render dissent and disposition meaningless, but only because it becomes indiscriminate. I.E. - it becomes the responsibility of your foes to surrender, not of you to offer mercy.
 
How do you draw might from inevitability when you lack the will to destroy that which opposes you? Supreme power may render dissent and disposition meaningless, but only because it becomes indiscriminate. I.E. - it becomes the responsibility of your foes to surrender, not of you to offer mercy.
Mercy is the luxury of the powerful. Those who are weak have to take any chance at victory, the only way out is through your foe's corpse.
 
There's also the fact that we'll probably have to kill a nice grandpa if we go Crimson and it devolved into a fight.

Good thing we have non lethal options in the form of Edeldross then. While it is not the strongest as of yet we did put 9 Arete into it and the increase to rank 5 should help. Since we are trying to infiltrate I doubt we will kill him unless we have to and I would bet there is a lot of unconventional stuff we can pull with blood powers to up our persuasiveness. Just earlier I suggested we use blood effects of simulate the results of disturbed emotions or some such when trying to convince him.

Every little bit counts and I bet I am not the only one with such ideas.
 
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Update in 20-30.

"Fine," Hunger said, after a moment's thought. "If you've thought through the logistical implications, you can come with us, though we won't provide any guarantee of safety. This path is dangerous and will only grow more so."

He would trust Letrizia's judgement on this matter, at least for now. The young duchess was in many ways naive. It was sometimes hard to remember that she was a veteran warrior entrusted with her nation's greatest superweapon. He believed she had the wherewithal to consider matters objectively when truly serious decisions, like this, came about.

"Thank you so much!" Aeira bowed again, even more deeply than before. "Yes, I have set up an account for an escrow company into which you can deposit funds now and remotely. The money will be released to my family on a time-delayed basis, assuming you intend to pay upfront with cash, and returned to you if my service is not satisfactory. One of my classmates has an Element that allows for limited-throughout communication across the Voyaging Realm. It's not totally reliable, but we should be able to get signal at least one day in ten. That will also enable me to slowly navigate back to the Sovereignty if we must part ways. I can bunk with Letrizia and will bring my own supplies in terms of food and toiletries."
 
For the proponents of the Ruling Ring, I'll note that the Three Forebear EFB brings you significantly closer than going from Crimson Flare into the Trinity Special Advancement. Either way, there will be one EFB between you and your goal but the latter is massively incentivized to buy more Rank through Once and Future, which would effectively win us this task by itself. Meanwhile, the Triple Forebear EFB is very power focused and would like to pick up Ruling Ring for both the potential it provides in its own right and the accelerated access to the Imperial Praxis. It's also by far the most prepared to face the contest of primacy, with immense supernal might, resistance to esoteric effects and Willpower through Praxis effects.

As for Not Dying Gang, what do I even have to say? All-Defeating Stance was already stated to be massive overkill for one of the Temple's mightiest luminaries. The resistance to all forms of lateral assault and mitigation of the Apocryphal are simply the cherries on top. Crimson isn't even directly relevant here and much of its power is gated behind defeating the Temple, which would be too little and too late. The choice is clear.

For the Mage voters out there, neither path is particularly likely provide you an EFB, if that's what you seek. However, the Blade lacks the utility of Crimson Flare and is thus is forced to turn to Edeldross. To see continued investment there and not in the powers of Blood, the Blade is likely your best bet (to say nothing of the Praxis). It's not as though a sword can uplift or heal after all! Crimson Flare would instead render Edeldross largely redundant outside of its attribute multipliers. I think it deserves better than to be relegated to that fate, don't you?

To those of us concerned with the moral dimensions of our character, while much has been made of the conquest and might of the Forebear, we've failed to truly acknowledge the genuine affection he feels for his companions. Could someone with something as selfless as What Rains May Come truly be evil? Consider the ethos of that technique: "I will bear your burdens and destroy that which burdened you." Is that not care, if through the idiosyncratic lens of the Forebear? Is it not love? To say nothing of Undying Vanguard; he would sooner die then see his companions fall in battle. For someone who has lost as much as Hunger, that is a worthy ideal to follow.

The Forebear is not cruel because he has no need for cruelty. Why be brutal when you could be kind if the outcome is inevitable either way? In a world like this, mercy is a luxury of the mighty. Would we have had to kill Vanreir if we were stronger? No, we could have peacefully subdued him and directed his genuine heroism to a more worthy task than the subjugation of the moon-mad. He deserved better than the die for the wretched, greedy ingrates of the Inner Temple. Should we fail to negotiate with the High Marshall, shall we put this kindly grandfather to the sword as well? Because if we triumph, that is the likely outcome without the might necessary to fight without the intent to kill.

I don't say all this because I'm particularly biased here; I would be happy with Crimson Flare as well (I voted for it, after all!). But for our current circumstances, I genuinely do think All-Defeating Stance would be superior in the short term and that the long term results wouldn't be unpleasant for any of the major constituencies of this quest.

EDIT: Wording changed for clarity

Saying the the Full sword option is actually the Mage-focused path you guys; just ignore all the investment into swording and how that would make swording be a much more efficient path for our development is quite the galaxy brain take. That Flare would obsolete Edeldross even more so; more buffing is always better, the creation of shields, blasts and flight is something unsuited to the conceptual abilities of the Ring and we can develop goddamn Graces with it. The only overlap they have is actually synergistic. Taking Pillars would do much more for developing Edeldross than making it compete with the already advantaged Blade.

I actually think Pillars into Ruling Ring is actually much better than Once and Future; more progression sooner is always better; and we don't know what is actually required for the contest of primacy; meaning the flexibility of Pillars might be better than Once and Future, and if we end up needing Rank we can just use Pillars to grind it anyway.

I agree that concerns about Forebear mental contamination are overstated; but I don't actually want Hunger's greatest powers be solely about aping the Forebear; that's just boring to me. He already has ton of conceptual space in the quest and in the minds of voters; I find giving it more to him unappealing. I want to let Hunger define his own Progress for a change, not to stay in the Forebear's shadow.

Plus, I don't think anyone who is described to have brought billions of worlds to heel and razed many more is a fundamentally good dude. Maybe he was sympathetic in his goals, but morality has long left the building already. I don't think not wanting to emulate him is wrong. It's important even; the Accursed warned of such a thing. Power may have no inherent morality; but arguing that his path was actually good is problematic.

If we just want to take what was admirable about him and leave what we disagree; that's much better represented through Trinity than three Blade EFBs. Let's not just jump head first into a pool we might not like the deep end of.
 
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