Fanwork#1350 Words of spoilerbox flowchart fight tactics. No Administration speculation involved here, though.

How to murder a rank 6.5 enemy when you are a Rank 4 scrub. I'm visualizing a flowchart, so I'm trying something more creative here but I think my organizational efforts only made more of a mess for you guys to look at. For me, though, it was actually a huge help brainstorming, because I can clearly see where I'm making assumptions. There's no "Avecarn chases Hunger's friends and ignores him" branch, for example, which I didn't consider was a possibility until I thought of alternatives. I hope this is helpful.

>Begin! I recall old discussion posts about how explosives would be more effective than blaster bolts against precognitive, superhumanly graceful Jedi, and Rank-based instincts amount to basically the same thing. I'm also in the middle of writing an Age and Treachery reaction, and Hunger was having a huge amount of trouble defending Gisena while pushing against the flow of the world. Combining these two thoughts, after Hunger gives an Edeldross buff, Gisena should push herself to the limit immediately, maybe even using her Ult, and debuff Avecarn as much as possible. (Hunger protects himself with Edeldross, he shouldn't be too close to Avecarn.) Aeira should do also go all out and muddy the waters as much as she can, if she's around. She has no business being close to this fight tbh. Hunger should take advantage and try to score a blow that will bleed out, in soul and especially in body, if Crimson wins, while he's weakened. Then, Gisena and Aeira should get the hell out immediately and fall back to Verschlengorge while Hunger focuses fully on defense and distracting Avecarn. Aeira is either a liability or a sacrifice in this fight, honestly. It'll totally suck to do this without Gisena, but at Rank 6.5 one of his attacks is going to get through Hunger's guard and kill her, I think. She'll be sublime and Rank 7 bloodboosted, but even so.

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Now, hopefully Avecarn will be wounded by everyone burning the candle at both ends at this point, and hopefully he doesn't have a way to heal cursed wounds in combat time, because then time will be working against him as well as us. From there, the main goal would simply be to not make any mistakes that Rank can exaggerate to ridiculous degrees. Keep the pressure up with high-percentage swordsmanship (I'm using tennis terminology because I'm not a sorddude, but I hope the idea comes through), but don't follow the impulse to do heroic improvisations. To assist in this, Hunger should destroy everything around him without leaving convenient weak spots like the crater that contributed to Vanreir's death. Every object is a potential banana peel in a fight with an overwhelming Rank difference.

I maintain that grappling is a good idea, there are so many fewer points of failure. The new complication with that plan is Edeldross, we don't want to buff ourself while we're on him, Hunger might be slick and controlled enough to manage to hit only himself while literally on top of his foe normally, but at Rank 6.5 it'd be impossible. I don't know how long the buff lasts, but if it wears off the choice would be between keeping the grapple without the buff, buffing both himself and his foe, and breaking the grapple to re-buff, but that can't be the next level of the flowchart because that one's reserved for whether or not this even works. This is hard, eh, I'l work it in.
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In order to pull this off, the first step is getting close. We outspeed him, so theoretically we could decide the range. His Rank and Administration will make it hard, the latter of which we don't know enough about; Hunger should learn about it over the fight, but he doesn't need me to tell him that. Use Ruin and Cut Through to get to him, the combination might work as a shitty knockoff Mage-Defeating Stance. Run at him while making a whipsaw motion with the sword? Feints will fail, but Hunger should be willing to take a hit to make this work.

I'm out of ideas, but Quora says to advance where there's a wall behind him to close distance, which makes sense so do that. It also suggests feinting a slow retreat before surging forward, but the inconsiderate users are only talking about non-supernatural fights, how rude. :S Damn, so much of fighting is psychological, this guy has a list of like 14 things and 10 of them are noped by Rank. One of them is good, use striking motions that push you forward.
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He allows himself to be grappled, and does not break the grapple easily. Ha, yeah right. If we're this lucky, apply Blade until dead. I'm not a fighter, but I realize that holding a humongous sword will make this awkward. Luckily, we have swordikinesis, so if we get it behind him we have an extra limb that we can summon to us through his body, like we did with Elizabeth. Other than that bit, the assumption of this section of the flowchart our higher physical stats would carry the day. Bask in your survival and be happy.
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Well, shit, Administratoin lets him teleport or he's just that good, so much for my big idea. Time to try everything else. Fortunately, he's still bleeding out according to this flowchart, so we'll have to stall another way. Bladewinds are unlikely to work, the Primary Rotspawn showed that Rank is protective against that attack. Directly attacking his blood is out for the same reason. Be defensive and hit him with the sword until he dies. Sorry, other people need to make the tactics for this one, I'm wiped and defaulting to Cut Through.
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This is an opportunity to reapply our Edeldross buff if it had run out; carefully, because he'll know about it now. Gain distance first. Then, depending on how easily he broke the grapple and what Hunger thinks about his ability to counter it, try again. Avecarn obviously won't want this to happen, but I've already wrote my best ideas for forcing it, so if it doesn't work it doesn't work, go to the "We can't manage to grab him" section of the flowchart.
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If, despite our best efforts, Avecarn is pristine, yikes. Time to run away. We could do it either with Gisena and Aeira or separately, and I'm not sure which is the better option. He'd almost certainly chase us rather than them even before Aeira works forgetfulness magic, so they'd be safer. But even though Hunger is faster than Avecarn, Rank 6.5 would bring Looney Tunes coincidences all over his path. Cutting Through them anyway would be the solution, I suppose. One of his unknown powers is probably arresting people, based on nothing more than a vague thought that that would fit. Cut Through that as well. Eh. I don't like it.

I take back my indecision, staying together while running away is clearly the better idea, Gisena and Aeira and Hunger each have their own magics that would make escape easier. Nullity on Rank or Administration tricks, shadow on the environment because his Rank is too high to get his mind easily, and Hunger's speed buffs and his own protective Rank. Run to Verschlengorge.
>>>We Die.
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Either we escape from Avecarn or we do not. If he kills us, we die. If we lose him, we live to fight another day. If he follows us all the way home, we might actually have an opportunity. Crash-heal Verschlengorge as fast as we can, Rank 6 takes hours and Rank 7 Days, but he's only 4.5 right now so if we burn Arete we might be able to get him to a reasonable level. Then we Blood and Edeldross boost the giant robot. And continue to run away, I think, killing him would be difficult even with the robot if everyone's tired and injured. This line of thought made me consider trying to deliberately ambush him with Verschlengorge, but that's the kind of complicated plan his Rank will nope.
 
Then, Gisena and Aeira should get the hell out immediately and fall back to Verschlengorge while Hunger focuses fully on defense and distracting Avecarn.
Rihaku has said there is no risk to them with this path.

Presumably he doesn't consider them his problem so isn't willing to bother.

He was tasked with dealing with us. And that is all he will do. Hell to doing even more work!
 
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I think you guys are a bit overly worried about mental contamination from the Forebear at this stage... besides, you've got high Willpower due to Uttermost anyway!
 
Rihaku has said there is no risk to them with this path.

Presumably he doesn't consider them his problem so isn't willing to bother.
Well. Dang, that was like box 0, but the rest could still work. Would be better if they could contribute a bit, actually, so maybe only 90% at first rather than maximum overdrive.
 
Slaughter is kinda time-limited, you need to terrify people more for them to spit out gains they've already swallowed compared to stopping them from eating those in the first place. So effectiveness will go down and scale of slaughter will have to go up to achieve equivalent gains if done after the other nobles start consolidating the Amarlt holdings.
True, but it might be worth the lost holdings if we can leverage it into more power. Raw power is greater than any asset, i believe.
When time burns, it casts a light. Given our ignorance, I'd suggest we work to illuminate ourselves. True Walking can reduce the temporal cost of our information gathering and starting as early as possible ensures we have a maximal amount of time to spend. Hopefully, this can also result in accelerated growth as we learn from the accumulated wisdom of the world.

Informing our parents of our weakness is an unnacceptable risk, the Doom of the Martyr would be crippling if any competent opponent learned of it. Let the world think we are merely driven to softhearted heroism. As for their safety, we can simply relocate our family once the hour of the King is at hand.
Maximum greed! Except for what you say, i suppose, but the Doom leaking would be potentially crippling to Edwin. This gives by far the least amount of combat power, however, quite a lot of long-term potential. The least safest choices have been taken previously, it might be wise to leverage the risk.

Such is the fate of the Martyr to sacrifice his happy life in the altar of the greater good.
 
Well. Dang, that was like box 0, but the rest could still work. Would be better if they could contribute a bit, actually, so maybe only 90% at first rather than maximum overdrive.
Gisena can suppress his rank. Some. Probably by about .5 or so - which if we have Crimson puts him exactly 1 rank over us, and 1 rank below us in Blood. Which given our superior stats....
 
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Our best bet if we take Crimson Flare is finding ways to apply Blood Domain to every aspect of the fight, and the negotiations as well if that's possible. Crimson Flare's main benefit is the 7 Rank we have with Blood Effects, the more things we can apply that to the more we can win against him. +0.5 is a heck of a lot better then -1.5 for our actions.

Examples:
If he tries to administrate us, have our blood itself rebel against his control and throw off the effect.
When negotiating, have his blood ache to just be done with this and go home already, his spirit is tired and doesn't want to have to fight. We could also try to amplify the call of his relatives, blood calls to blood, increasing his desire to return to them.
Debuffing him if it comes to a fight is obvious.

Anyone else have anything along those lines?
 
Join us on unacceptable/maximum greed! We can get Crimson. It's only slightly more dangerous in exchange for not spending 14 arete on stances we don't really want.
I mean, they're not bad. I'd be perfectly happy with them later.

But yea, they're less than ideal right now. I can live with Maximum Safety, if needed.

Might as well actually update my vote to accommodate.

[X] Unacceptable
[X] Maximum Safety
[X] Maximal Greed
 
Join us on unacceptable/maximum greed! We can get Crimson. It's only slightly more dangerous in exchange for not spending 14 arete on stances we don't really want.

The only things one might want to consider is that while it may only be slightly more dangerous for a combat scenario, it also makes combat decidedly more likely, as it does nothing little on the diplomacy front. (i forgot the .7 rank will help things.)

A social win changes the dynamic a lot by allowing us entry into the temple with room to breath and explore, and introduces us to the temple injury free.
 
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I think the most important thing to do, is stick to truths. He has been stated to be an old guy who just wants to get this over with, but can suss out a lie quicker than Hunger can reel in a big one.

All we have to do is not tick his this guy is shady as flux button and we'll be gold. If we can maintain civility for like three minutes and If we don't lie, there is nothing for him left to question.
Question.

If Hunger comes off as slightly shady or slightly reluctant to deal or reveal things or capitulate or compromise... Could we tell the truth and blame part of it on a Curse we are laboring under? Also, I think somebody suggested admitting/revealing to Avecarn that Hunger is just after power, that the Temple provides worthy opponents and challenges (and thus lets him power up).

... Although that could instead torpedo his chances, because if worded wrongly, he'd seem like a guy unwilling to make deals and compromise, and of course the biggest source of powerups in the place would be the Trapped Ring sooo... nevermind, I guess...

Hm. About the Crimson Ring.

Does taking it give the ability to use Ennoble and super-healing already? I know that freeing the Azure Ring "obsoletes and refunds" those, which might make it sound as if you only get Ennoble if you rescue the ring... but is that the case exactly @Rihaku? Does getting base Crimson Flare, get some amount of Ennoblement -- just not the super-powered version?
 
The only things one might want to consider is that while it may only be slightly more dangerous for a combat scenario, it also makes combat decidedly more likely, as it does nothing little on the diplomacy front. (i forgot the .7 rank will help things.)

A social win changes the dynamic a lot by allowing us entry into the temple with room to breath and explore, and introduces us to the temple injury free.
I'm pretty sure it helps tremendously on the social front, thanks to the Rank increase. His Rank is the main reason he is so difficult to fool, as I understand matters.
 
I'm pretty sure it helps tremendously on the social front, thanks to the Rank increase. His Rank is the main reason he is so difficult to fool, as I understand matters.


Hero defeating stance bumps us to 4.5 and cuts his effect in half, going from 2 ranks up on us to 1 rank up on us.

Blood is comparing 5 vs 6.5, so a .5 difference.

The guile defeating stance also adds relevant stats like ++charisma and wisdom for the negotiation. There is an outside chance it helps us detect his own subterfuge as well, but how much that would help us i'm unsure.
 
Hero defeating stance bumps us to 4.5 and cuts his effect in half, going from 2 ranks up on us to 1 rank up on us.

Blood is comparing 5 vs 6.5, so a .5 difference.

The guile defeating stance also adds relevant stats like ++charisma and wisdom for the negotiation. There is an outside chance it helps us detect his own subterfuge as well, but how much that would help us i'm unsure.
Well, yes, the Maximally Safe option is safer, yes. That is already known.
 
My thing is if we get Crimson and it becomes a fight can we not just... make his heart stop and make him bleed out? Vanrier kept going anyway because he was a determinator. This guy is much more tired of this, and our blood effects would have a rank advantage so his rank would not protect him against it. Combined with his significantly lower stats...
 
Yeah, I was mainly highlighting the type of danger though, as most people are thinking about a fight. If we score a social win it's tremendously more helpful than a bloody combat, in my opinion. I just want people to consider how valuable avoiding the battle could be.
I expect a social win is far more influenced by having a good approach than anything else.
 
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