But we never voted for a stealth operation, so why would we need the skills for one? If we want to turn this into a Metal Gear mission ok then, sure, but our original plan was for a social infiltration with the main purpose of learning more of the Inner Temple before we fully committed to a final push.
I have thought attempting social contact with societies from a position of weakness is a terrible idea due to the Doom of the Tyrant for the full duration of this quest so I'm continuing to act to avoid it.
our new professional assassin daughteru
she's a mercenary stranger we've never met
 
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[X] Evening Sky: Shadowlord
[X] +1 pick below

I don't want to add another highschool girl to our party; one is quite enough, thank you. Moreover, I suppose it was time that the Evening Sky gang got something shiny as well.
 
The only way we can get the 2 picks options and given how good they are it's no surprise this option is the only game in town at this point.
[ ] +1 re-roll during Infiltration
Would provide a very useful layer of security but some of the 2 picks options also considerably increase the chances we have of pulling of our infiltration without complication. So it's not very surprising that nobody is voting for this.
Would get us that much closer to getting an EFB but generally getting an extra pick is better than 0.75 Arete and in this circumstance the 2 picks are so good that this never really stood a chance.
[ ] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear - Cloud-shadow of the Forebear's might.
Legendary strength and speed, and the resilience to exert them. Can be taken multiple times. [+Might, +Agility]
As good as this was early on, with our blood buffs and all the other great options we get these days, this is completely outclassed at this point.
[ ] The Ring of Power - Dominion - 2 Arete
A ring of power does not exert influence casually. It has its own will, its own preferences, and if that will should be inseparable from its owner's, its sway thereby shall be greater for it.

The available domains for Hunger are: War
.25 Rank in combat is certainly not bad and advance us towards the Ring, a dangerous path but one that many in the thread are interested in threading. It does get in the way of us picking a 2 picks, though...
[ ] Fierce Quickening - The absurd violence of Blood unleashed. Let all that falls within its dominion be spilled, if it be in service to the Ringbearer. Adds [++Agility, +Wits] to the bonuses from Quickening, subject to the usual conditions. Can be taken up to 3 times.
[ ] Augment Dominion: Blood - The world-wielding will of the Ring.
Treat the wielder's Rank as if it were (.5 Low/.25 Medium/.1 High) higher for purposes of the [Ring of Power] effect applied to the Blood domain, increasing its potency and versatility. Repeatable, but costs 1 more pick each time.
They're blood buffs, they're good and cost no Arete. Can't be taken with a 2 picks, though.
[ ] Exalted Spirit - 2 Arete. Conjunctional [Hunger, Evening Sky]. Mind made vigorous as the body. Gain +Int, +Wits, +Wis, +Cha, -Heartlessness, while in a form with physical blood. Allies under blood enhancement gain +Int, +Cha. Blood enhancement requires physical blood.
I still want to pick this at some point, it's just so good! But, realistically, that will have to wait for after we complete the Temple. It just doesn't do enough for us right now.
[ ] Sublime Transfusion - 2 Arete. The restorative vigor of blood willingly given. The wielder may donate his blood to another in order to heal them. This applies regeneration at a rate triple the wielder's own, and this healing effect is treated as if possessing conceptual potency a full Rank higher than the wielder's baseline, minimum 7. Even organisms of different species can be revitalized through such means.
Would have been a viable plan last pick, but now that we're committed to some form of infiltration, this is pretty useless in our current situation.
[ ] Vigor Incarnate - 2 picks, 2 Arete. The glory of Blood triumphant. Let those who would stand against him cower, or be undone. A simple but exceptionally powerful option.

Adds [+++Might, ++Charisma] to the bonuses from Quickening, subject to the usual conditions.
Add your Charisma to your Protection.
With 2 +s to charisma this is the best option for the original social infiltration plan. It also does not neglect combat ability in the process by providing +3 Might and +8.1 Protection and the Protection bonus will continue to increase as we increase our Charisma in the future! This is absolutely incredible value that fit perfectly with our current situation. Sadly it stands no chance of winning at this point.
[ ] Edeldross Adept - 2 picks, 2 Arete. Conjunctional [Ring of Power, Evening Sky] Through a surge of genius, Hunger vastly accelerates the growth of his proficiency with Edeldross.

*Substantially improves the effects of Hunger's Edeldross training session, increasing Magnitude to +30% and imparting significant bonuses to control. He can now consistently form barriers, blasts, and basic shapes (spear, sword, boxing glove) from Edeldross.
*Hunger can now maintain close to 100% uptime on basic self Edeldross enhancement.
*Unlocks advanced Edeldross enhancement, a time-limited technique that increases his effective Magnitude by half again.
*Doubles the rate of pseudo-Grace creation in the future. This benefit is unique to the Advancement.
A notable improvement across the board for Hunger's stats. This could be reproduced by just training his element a little bit more in the future but what can't be reproduced this way is the doubled rate of pseudo-Grace creation which is relatively good, I suppose. It's sadly rather unfocused and isn't particularly synergistic with either a social or a stealth approach to our infiltration, though it does help moderately with either.
[ ] Evening Sky: Shadowlord - 2 picks, 7 Arete. It's rare that such conjunctions occur, but the cloak of Evening has unusual affinity for the Elements of shadow. By absorbing the power of an Element willingly offered, some of its attributes may be infused into the wearer.

*+30% AGI, +30% Manipulation
*Gain +++++++Stealth, ++++Theft
*Weave of Silence: Immune to sound- and music-based attacks.
*Attention-Deflecting Shroud: +Protection from the Evening Sky now adds to Stealth.
*Assassin's Grace: 100% Critical Strike chance when performed from ambush.

*In exchange for paying Shadowcord a kingly sum of money, she will agree to let Hunger absorb her Element. This is not a permanent reduction; her ability to summon it will return slowly over the course of two years.
*Needless to say it's far more effective to have such capabilities present in Hunger himself than to rely on relatively-weak external sources
*Consumes one additional day as you farm the money needed.
An extremely powerful option but with a proportionate price tag. 7 Arete when we are trying to save for an EFB hurts and losing an Apocryphal-free day is pretty awful right now. That said, the incredible synergy with a stealth approach to our infiltration which Rihaku explicitly stated to be the safer approach, the versatility it add to Hunger's capabilities and the synergy it establish with investing in the Evening Sky protection bonuses compels me to vote for this given that Vigor Incarnate stands no chance of winning at this point

[X] +1 pick below
[X] Evening Sky: Shadowlord
 
Is the momentum shifting? Don't worry, Edeldross, I'll save you!
[X] +1 pick below
[X] Evening Sky: Shadowlord

Projectile changes class to rogue, Projectile stabs Edeldross in the back! Friendship ended with SAVEgang, Shadowlord is my best friend.

There are lots of small reasons for this. Seeing the cool Blood capstones cools my ardor for more +Progression. I strongly prefer Shadowlord to snapbuying a stance, which seems more likely the more I think about it. I keep imagining cool Age and Treachery fights we can do with stealthmode. The thought of ghosting out after a Tyrant proc rather than even a nonlethal fight is soothing. More stats to add +es to makes Edeldross and Preeminence even better. Crits are cool. We might get another vacation fight or even some Rank from the extra day. I don't want to do morally questionable things to moonbrain adventurers. Lots of Edeldross adept benefits will come in time.

The points just kept piling up, and eventually Edeldross and the Ring and frugality couldn't compete. I apologize to Adept voters and especially to the Precious.
 
The points just kept piling up, and eventually Edeldross and the Ring and frugality couldn't compete. I apologize to Adept voters and especially to the Precious.
Precious needs to wait till we get more information, seems to be what I've learned. I'm hoping the Lunar Ring will have some info for us, given all the rings are connected and its been awake a long time.

I've decided Pillars probably will make an argument for itself once we stop running into fights that we get significant picks from on a literally daily basis.
 
Personally, when I think of the power of SAVE, it's for things like Shadowlord. EFB's are great, but when I look back at Even Further Beyond, they weren't the highlight for me, looking at you All Paths, and when I think about the things I WANT in this quest, pretty much all of them are 7 pointers.

Rune King, Azure Moon, Magic Defeating Stance, Pearlessence, Inksky, Wreath. Those are the Blurbs that made me sit up and grin, that brought me the most joy, and I prefer the immediate breadth, and depth they add to Hunger.

We just bought our first EFB, Cut Through, a singularity husk scaling Praxis equivalent, what have we done with it? We're spending curse free days training our 7 point magic as apposed to our 25 point one, there are reasons, good ones, but there it is.

Lets build on what we have, build on Hunger while we explore Cut Through, rather then try to rush 3 EFB's and risk being all potential, but no substance.
 
[X] Evening Sky: Shadowlord
[X] +1 pick below

To finally become the thief we were meant to be.
Also, it's a way to get Tyrant procs without overtly antagonizing people.

If someone told you not to go somewhere, you can just sneak in.
If someone forbidden you from eating all the cookies, you can just steal them.
If you are barred by law from killing some asshole (the horror!), you can assassinate them.

The more I think about it, the more I love it.
 
Wooooo it's ya girl and she's done (with that Magus bullshit that is)

ult to the face nerd



A thousand thanks to Dark Abstraction for commissioning this one - every paid piece buys a little more free time I can spend working on quest art!
 
I don't really like this "measure how much arete my favorite option has gotten!" tendency.

And I really don't like the tendency of voters to talk about how much they need to SAVE when my favorite option is winning, and then suddenly don't need to save so badly when something they want comes along. It still happens. You can deal with things you don't like happening, we all have to.

A lot of our current problems go back to us having foolishly taken on an area outside our level, forcing expenditures into immediate survival. So trying to balance expenditures without accounting for our position feels... unwise.

Here's the thing. We have a lot of good options. There were and are many paths we can take to ensure survival, so any type of build is a valid way to survive unless there's some sort of anti-synergy going on.

Claiming that everything we did was for the sake of survival is false. I can think of exactly two examples of things that were discarded because of survival concerns - Fisher King and Heedless War. Every single other vote came down to matters of preference.

Your comment about balancing expenditures though... That sounds like a good idea. Maybe I should try creating a charter of sorts, creating a group that's bound to exchanges votes so that the members who have lost more often are given support in order to win... I'll have to think about how it could be done, and if it's even a good idea.
 
And really, we already have an EFB. I don't think we really need more at the moment.
Lets build on what we have, build on Hunger while we explore Cut Through, rather then try to rush 3 EFB's and risk being all potential, but no substance.
I'll have to strongly disagree with these sentiments. EFBs are the single most efficient use of our Arete, they are ridiculously powerful and are how we won in EFB. We're not in the same situation as in EFB, sure, and getting a bunch of EFBs won't be enough for Hunger to just win everything forever, given the shear scale of the opponents Hunger must eventually face, namely the Hidden ones. It might win us this geas task, though. Plus, not only are EFBs more efficient than any other way of spending Arete, if we collect an appropriate set of 3 EFBs we get an additional incredibly powerful bonus!

I don't always oppose spending on stuff which aren't EFBs, as an examination of the way I voted will quickly tell you, but I do think there must be a justification for spending on anything else. Either it must provide substantial bonus applicable to our current situation or it must provide some kind of incredible synergy for our build. Given how dangerous the Temple is, I've been all in favor of spending our Arete with the goal of Not Dying but I expect myself to join SAVE gang as soon as we are out of here, as long as the playerbase doesn't send us into another equally dangerous situation...
 
I'll have to strongly disagree with these sentiments. EFBs are the single most efficient use of our Arete, they are ridiculously powerful and are how we won in EFB. We're not in the same situation as in EFB, sure, and getting a bunch of EFBs won't be enough for Hunger to just win everything forever, given the shear scale of the opponents Hunger must eventually face, namely the Hidden ones. It might win us this geas task, though. Plus, not only are EFBs more efficient than any other way of spending Arete, if we collect an appropriate set of 3 EFBs we get an additional incredibly powerful bonus!

I don't always oppose spending on stuff which aren't EFBs, as an examination of the way I voted will quickly tell you, but I do think there must be a justification for spending on anything else. Either it must provide substantial bonus applicable to our current situation or it must provide some kind of incredible synergy for our build. Given how dangerous the Temple is, I've been all in favor of spending our Arete with the goal of Not Dying but I expect myself to join SAVE gang as soon as we are out of here, as long as the playerbase doesn't send us into another equally dangerous situation...

Honestly, if there was a mage-type EFB, like say Total Eclipse, that was in the running, I would agree with you. However, as it is all the EFBs people want to get run counter to the type of build I want to see. It's effectively 25 Arete going towards things I don't care about, which means giving up things I do care about.

That'd be fine if I could trust the thread to contribute Arete towards the things I do want to see outside of the EFBs. That's happened exactly once, and it was mostly because of Conjured Blade dropping 10K Omake on Investigate Schools, leading into the Imaginary Element vote where there was no choice but to spend Arete on an element, and the best choices were the 7 Arete ones.

At the end of the day, spending 25 Arete in chunks of 2 and 7 is far more likely to get me what I want then saving for an EFB. This disincentivizes EFBs for me.
 
On the one hand, I really don't care for adding another random highschool girl to our party. On the other hand, we're probably at 16-ish Arete now so buying this would still let us buy 2 Stances if necessary, which would save us from any fuckups and still S A V E for an EFB, unlike Shadowlord chased down with Pearlesence. On the third, Progression granted mutant hand, Edeldross Adept is significantly more likely to need those Stances than Shadowlord.

But maybe that's a feature...

[X] Edeldross Adept
[X] +1 pick below


5D chessmater, right here.
 
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One of the reasons I switched to Shadowlord is that I just don't see us saving up for an EFB with expenditures like these (Edit: anytime soon I mean, we'll obviously be able to do it in the longer-term). Adept is cool, but it's firmly in the 'nice to have' category. Don't see anything wrong with picking it if people like it, but what's to stop us from picking the next 2-Arete option we like? Or the one after that? If there's one thing Rihaku doesn't lack, it's cool blurbs and captivating powers. In which case I'd rather fall back on a 7-Arete option as the next tier in efficiency. I can appreciate this one's themes and powers too, plus it gives an increased margin for safety, so I just find it better to make one big purchase than try to cut off the tail piece by piece.
 
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One of the reasons I switched to Shadowlord is that I just don't see us saving up for an EFB with expenditures like these (Edit: anytime soon I mean, we'll obviously be able to do it in the longer-term). Adept is cool, but it's firmly in the 'nice to have' category. Don't see anything wrong with picking it if people like it, but what's to stop us from picking the next 2-Arete option we like? Or the one after that? If there's one thing Rihaku doesn't lack, it's cool blurbs and captivating powers. In which case I'd rather fall back on a 7-Arete option as the next tier in efficiency. I can appreciate this one's themes and powers too, plus it gives an increased margin for safety, so I just find it better to make one big purchase than try to cut off the tail piece by piece.

Depends if people are actually scared off of buying ring or not. If we spend 2 points here with 14~ left behind, we're still mainly lacking the picks, not arete for the ring right? I think we'd get the Arete we need over the course of the picks we need dropping.

Same might be true if we spend 7 here too though, it's not that far off save for fear.
 
One of the reasons I switched to Shadowlord is that I just don't see us saving up for an EFB with expenditures like these. Adept is cool, but it's firmly in the 'nice to have' category. Don't see anything wrong with picking it if people like it, but what's to stop us from picking the next 2-Arete option we like? Or the one after that? If there's one thing Rihaku doesn't lack, it's cool blurbs and captivating powers. In which case I'd rather fall back on a 7-Arete option as the next tier in efficiency. I can appreciate this one's themes and powers too, plus it gives an increased margin for safety, so I just find it better to make one big purchase than try to cut off the tail piece by piece.

Yeah but in the update to Arete ratio, Edeldross Adept is pretty much 1:1. For every update without an expenditure point, we're coming out ahead. Meanwhile, with Shadowlord, it's more like 1:3, which would throw us off track pretty significantly and even more so when we inevitably buy another 9 Arete of choices to make sure it keeps up. That would almost wipe out our reserves entirely, which would be tragic when we're currently in the double digits.

Putting that aside, I'm not sure how likely it is we'll be able to steal the Ring even with the bonuses to stealth. I imagine it would help significantly with reconnaissance but I can't imagine an entire civilization of Soul Evokers lack divinatory magics so infiltrating the truly well guarded places would still be an issue. Even more difficult would be breaking out. The second we remove the thing powering their entire civilization, they're likely to notice and while the +30% AGI is nice, it's not enough to overcome any Final Boss they might be keeping in reserve.
 
[X] Evening Sky: Shadowlord
[X] +1 pick below

Between the agi boost and the short and long term options a scaling stealth boost give, this seems worth it.
 
Depends if people are actually scared off of buying ring or not.

I for one am deeply, deeply afraid of buying the ring to soon, we are rank 4, basically shit tier to the scale of opponent we would be inviting, someone powerful enough to own a ring, and master it, likely several someones.

We are barely keeping pace with the temple, a society that has diluted the power of their ring rather then concentrating it on it's bearer.
 
Honestly, if there was a mage-type EFB, like say Total Eclipse, that was in the running, I would agree with you.
I mean, if we ever get into a secure enough situation that we can afford to vote for a pure potential EFB and it doesn't interfere with us getting a special advancement, you can be sure I'll be voting for Total Eclipse. Investing in pure Potential EFBs is, over the long term, the single best possible used of Arete and I actually greatly prefer the aesthetic of Total Eclipse to something like Pillars. We just need to be in a situation were that make sense.

It's not like I don't like mage build! Mage is one of my favorite fictional archetype and I voted for Mage Lord. I just don't let that preference overshadow everything else. You seem to think that literally every expense of Arete towards anything except a mage option is literally wasted, no matter what it give us or how strong it might make Hunger:
It's effectively 25 Arete going towards things I don't care about, which means giving up things I do care about.
and that just seems like a ridiculously extreme position to hold.

Plus, Hunger primarily is and is extremely likely to remain a swordsman. He's never going to be a pure caster no matter what, so refusing to take any option that isn't about more magic, just doesn't make sense. Hunger improving at what he does best is always going to be important and a good thing. This isn't d&d with its linear fighters and quadratic wizards, the Accursed himself uses a sword and Hunger got the potential to access Imperial Praxis equivalent effects through swording.
 
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Between the agi boost and the short and long term options a scaling stealth boost give, this seems worth it.

It doesn't grant scaling stealth though? It grants stealth that increases with Evening Sky protection purchases, so we'd need to invest in Pearlescence (another 9 Arete and 3 picks) to make it scaling.

Also, the agility boost is only 5% better then Edeldross Adept's temporary buff, and Edeldross Adept grants equal bonuses to all stats, not just agility.
 
I for one am deeply, deeply afraid of buying the ring to soon, we are rank 4, basically shit tier to the scale of opponent we would be inviting, someone powerful enough to own a ring, and master it, likely several someones.

We are barely keeping pace with the temple, a society that has diluted the power of their ring rather then concentrating it on it's bearer.
I couldn't help but laugh for a moment when I thought, hey, if going to the temple willingly gave us a couple weeks of Apocryphal mitigation, how much time would we get off for painting a giant target on our back for the ruling ring bearer of this age?
 
I guess I'm a little concerned about hypothetical Sauron kicking our shit in, but we really don't have any leads on weather or not such a figure exists, much less their power level.

I'd rather base my decision on concrete information, and hedge against known risks. If we can at some point afford the ring, let's go for it and find out what's up.

If we get access to more information, that changes a lot. Kinda miss that oracle lady now!
 
Yeah but in the update to Arete ratio, Edeldross Adept is pretty much 1:1. For every update without an expenditure point, we're coming out ahead. Meanwhile, with Shadowlord, it's more like 1:3, which would throw us off track pretty significantly and even more so when we inevitably buy another 9 Arete of choices to make sure it keeps up. That would almost wipe out our reserves entirely, which would be tragic when we're currently in the double digits.
I understand, but we won't be able to avoid significant Arete purchases. It's either by paying for Stances or finding some other way. If there was a 7-Arete social option, I would have probably chosen that one instead and tried to win that way, but right now we have stealth on offer, so I'm taking that.

Putting that aside, I'm not sure how likely it is we'll be able to steal the Ring even with the bonuses to stealth. I imagine it would help significantly with reconnaissance but I can't imagine an entire civilization of Soul Evokers lack divinatory magics so infiltrating the truly well guarded places would still be an issue. Even more difficult would be breaking out. The second we remove the thing powering their entire civilization, they're likely to notice and while the +30% AGI is nice, it's not enough to overcome any Final Boss they might be keeping in reserve.
It's not going to trivialize the challenge, but it sure is going to make things much easier for us when we don't have to batter down every door and enemy on our way through, letting us pick our targets and times of attack. And of course they would have divinatory magics, but Stealth isn't just the mundane skill I reckon, otherwise getting it would be a bit pointless. It's Stealth the stat, encompassing everything that would fall under its domain. That includes hiding from magics too for me. How else would you explain Rihaku's statement that it's the safest option?
 
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