We are already ahead of the power-curve though. Can't we use this opportunity to invest towards the future instead? Considering how crippling conditions can be, having less of them would be ideal.

Everything is a vain hope if we don't build towards it; especially EFB. We have to start somewhere, and this looks like a especially good place. We want to bring Evening Sky up to par, so we have to build towards it; even if it is less optimal. We can't just leave it out to dry.
What makes you think we are ahead of the power curve where the Temple is concerned!? We barely defeated Vanrier and the inner residents might come out in force to face us for all we know now! Do you think we can beat potentially multiple Vanrier tier soul evocation users? I just want us to get as much power as possible and end The War For The Ring already!

After that I am all for saving Arete for EFB and upgrading Evening sky since we will have grown beyond Ber and Apocryphal Curse for a good while.
 
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We are a lot stronger then when we faced Vanreir thanks to Progression, and have the Praxis to boot. I think it's much more doable than before. More importantly, if we wait for the perfect time to improve the Evening Sky we are never going to do it; it suffers too many maluses and competes with much shinier stuff. It will always have a opportunity cost, always have better things competing with it, so we should take now instead of when it would be worse; especially since the option save for Pillars as well. A sacrifice of power for finally balancing our build is fine for me.
 
Sadly, temple is such an death trap that untill we are out immediate power will always be the better choice. Let's also remember that we have only few days of the Apocryphal Curse inactivation left, once it ends, we will be in even more danger in the Temple!
We've been explicitly told that we've outscaled the Apocryphal Curse, at least for now.

Best to take more power now and deal with the Temple as quick as possible! We can focus on Evening Sky when we are relatively less danger!
Except that I don't think we're going to be able to find an option like Inksky that easily. Magic systems don't grow on trees, after all.

Plus, we just took multiple interlocking massive upgrades to our offense: Uttermost + Cut Through was one long sequence of us spending four picks and an EFB-tier Arete expenditure on SORD GOOD. I'm sure that there are still things in the Temple that we can't casually hack our way through, but if we're just going to be overwhelmed again as soon as we get back there, we were always only ever doomed.

Furthermore, the longer we keep grabbing immediate power options without regard for synergy with our existing equipment, the greater the likelihood that we'll end up outscaled by future opposition down the line that had a coherent build and growth curve.

What makes you think we are ahead of the power curve where the Temple is concerned!? We barely defeated Vanrier and the inner residents might come out in force to face us for all we know now! Do you think we can beat potentially multiple Vanrier tier soul evocation users?
We just took Uttermost + Cut Through to deal with exactly that tier of threat. Where does this argument end?

Besides, right now we're such a glass cannon that if we get mobbed by a bunch of Vanrier-tier opponents we might very well die to a cheap shot in the back while fighting the others, precisely because the Evening Sky and our overall defensive attributes are inadequate!

Sometimes you have to choose options with growth potential and balance, if you want to keep growing.
 
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Edeldross actually does open up a way to generate findross with the tools you have now, though the mechanism is somewhat obscure...

I love puzzles.

So, what is findross? Well, we know it possesses the superlative quality of making things be as they should.

What is Edeldross? "This precursor component of findross embodies redemption, perfection, restoration and the renewal of cycles. It is the liminal gloss between real and ideal, whereby the purposeless matter of the corporeal world becomes the refined substrate of supernal augmentation.

One way to produce findross would be to create Edeldross, then use incident Nullification to nullify every concept but perfection and restoration. The resulting substance would restore things towards perfection, which sounds a lot like Findross.

[ ] Incident Nullification - Gisena is able to nullify specific phenomena or concepts on which she has practiced extensively; the more abstract and influential the target, the more difficult the Nullifcation, with even moderate nullifications being of surpassing complexity. However, the ultimate potential for this ability is vast.

Gisena is very familiar with Findross, and Edeldross is a related energy, so she should be quite adept at manipulating them. Once she's nullified Edeldross into Findross, this would allow Coalescence. There might be issues with making a male sorceress, see the section below on the nature of findross.

There are ways to induce Coalescence as well. Just gotta get some findross or findross-equivalent energy!

We would be able to manipulate findross as well, though it might still be a ways in the future.

Speaking of ways to buff Gisena, the Tyrant's Rank buff would certainly get you closer to a relevant Rank for Accretion-based findross manipulation... this on top of the Arete and Curse mitigations!

My guess is that using Rank to produce Findross is the brute-force solution, where you're so powerful that you can manipulate just about any exotic energies, Findross included.

Anyways, that's my idea for creating and manipulating Findross, as well as Coalescing.


The nature of Findross

Findross is the concept of perfection. But then, who or what is defining that perfection? Luckily we have the answer to that.

"Yup! But don't worry, I think I've grasped a new aspect to the nature of findross. If I'm correct, the Foremost utilized it as well. Letrizia's work has been quite helpful on the matter."
...
Gisena paused, mulling over her next words. "The Maiden... is every Sorceress' role model, the founder of our civilization and source of all our Graces. To quickly advance in Sorcery, one should emulate her as closely as possible. Excellence in every field. Perfection in grace and poise. And, it goes without saying, remaining a pure and chaste maiden. Not to brag, but it all came easily for me. Many lords tried courting me, but none of them ever came close to keeping up, so it was easy to avoid becoming interested. It was easy to deflect them, easy to master the arts and sciences, easy to advance as a Sorceress... I never really faced anything comparable to what you did, since I portaled away before the Hero could begin his conquest. My home civilization may be doomed, but I've never had to see it burn. Would I lose my composure if I had?"
...
"Speaking of, I'm hopeful this new breakthrough will free me of the Maiden's shadow, allowing me to improve my sorceries directly! Though I'm not certain of the exact benefits it'll bring..."

In Gisena's world, the maiden defined the perfection that Findross worked towards.

Later, a hero orc of equivalent power rose up, and attempted to redefine perfection.

the Orcish equivalent of the Maiden

Both of these beings attained Findross Singularities, at which point the concept of perfection they were working towards became self-defined. The maiden became the perfect maiden, and since she held infinite Findross within her she re-defined perfection to being being her. Had the Orcish hero won, he'd have done the same thing, except perfection would be become being more like the orcish hero.

This universe doesn't seem to have ever experienced a findross singularity, or perhaps maiden-equivalents appeared and were immediately beaten up by astral lords or something. Either way, Gisena's advances mean that in this world we don't have to be a woman or an orc we're required to emulate in order to coalesce.

Of course, we could get a findross singularity of our own. Here is how we'd do it.

(consuming this fish ignites a meta-singularity of findross within you; should you survive then you may theoretically wield the True Quintessence)

Fish, and eating, are both very near and dear to Hunger's heart, so it should come as no surprise that these two acts lead to the Findross Singularity. Power is required, but so is a definition of perfection. Hunger eating a fish is perfection to him, all that is required in addition to this is sufficient quantities of Findross to latch onto this perfection and ignite the singularity.
 
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It's been what, barely a few weeks since we got Evening Sky? It looks like a long time have passed from the questers view but in universe it's been barely a month at worst! We have shit ton of time to bring Evening Sky to an comparable level to our other Panoply. It's just that the Temple requires focus on more efficient options since it's so ridiculously dangerous.
 
Winning the game requires not dying! Not dying in the Temple, not dying to the Apocryphal Curse... all this can be achieved by pulling ahead of the power curve! Instead of fighting overwhelmingly powerful enemies and hoping that increased Protection will result in fewer conditions (is this a vain hope given how far behind your Protection is? Do you want to spend 9 Arete and 3 picks trying to patch it?), you could just be more powerful!
It's, as always, a matter of balance. Of getting away with greed. Playing for your win conditions rather than playing for survival.

Inky is weaker in short and perhaps medium term too. That's fine. It also benefits a lot from Ruling Ring, encourages us to take Charisma and discounts Pillars too. It does what we want to do, basically.

Plus it's a feelgood too.
I'm surprised you're not aiming for Quickwater given its flat Rank bonus, though...
I wanted Rank build, it didn't work out and that's it. Would it be amazing with FoR/Dominion/Kinslayer? Absolutely. But thread has already decided that they don't value Rank much so that's that.
 
Best to take more power now and deal with the Temple as quick as possible! We can focus on Evening Sky when we are relatively less danger!
No. We will never be in less danger than we are now. Ever. We have proven this. Even on a literal vacation to a resort we ended up getting killed in our 1st form. And by the time we're done with the temple, we will have so thoroughly eclipsed the Evening Sky (pun intended) that there will be no point in having it. This is what your statement actually means in the context you're saying it in:

"Best to take more power (that doesn't allow the Evening Sky to be a relevant component of that power) until the point where we're so powerful from crushing the Temple that the Evening Sky has nothing left to offer us (because it'll still be weak from lack of upgrades), then lament how it was too pitiful (since we never upgraded it) and then have to get rid of it cause it simply couldn't keep up (because we never voted to let it keep up)."
 
It's been what, barely a few weeks since we got Evening Sky? It looks like a long time have passed from the questers view but in universe it's been barely a month at worst! We have shit ton of time to bring Evening Sky to an comparable level to our other Panoply. It's just that the Temple requires focus on more efficient options since it's so ridiculously dangerous.

It's a bunch of things:
1.) We're not forced to complete the Temple as soon as possible. Unless the meta-contextual moat thing applies (in which case, Inksky has good scaling too), we can continue to scale up like normal.
2.) It doesn't matter what in game time is-- if questers see investing in the Evening Sky as inefficient, we won't vote for it, which makes it lag behind harder. This deathspiral is difficult to overcome, and I think concerns about this potentially being the last opportunity to bring Evening Sky up to speed are legitimate.
3.) We're pretty glass cannon-- Protection helps with that. I'd like to get more Protection so we don't take as many risks!
 
[X] 7 Arete Version
[X] Edeldross

This gives both a short-term power boost and long-term advancement. Discount for Pillars is great, but they are in such a faraway future that 5 Arete don't really matter, and I think we will have the time to advance Evening Sky on its own pace. Edeldross even offers a small discount for the Evening Sky EFB.
 
We are a lot stronger then when we faced Vanreir thanks to Progression, and have the Praxis to boot. I think it's much more doable than before. More importantly, if we wait for the perfect time to improve the Evening Sky we are never going to do it; it suffers too many maluses and competes with much shinier stuff. It will always have a opportunity cost, always have better things competing with it, so we should take now instead of when it would be worse; especially since the option save for Pillars as well. A sacrifice of power for finally balancing our build is fine for me.

This doesn't add nearly enough Protection to actually balance your build though. Do you intend to spend 3 picks, 9 Arete on Pearlescence immediately after, thus delaying your EFBs even further? If so, do you think the thread will follow in doing so? Are you actually saving any Arete this way, or merely spending yourself into debt?

Besides, right now we're such a glass cannon that if we get mobbed by a bunch of Vanrier-tier opponents we might very well die to a cheap shot in the back while fighting the others, precisely because the Evening Sky and our overall defensive attributes are inadequate!

Hunger has good CON, high AGI, Praxis blocks and Second Stage. I wouldn't say he's a glass cannon, though his build is offensively focused. With Protection being quite behind, you may find it far more efficient to use high AGI + Praxis blocks, as those are already strengths for him.

Edeldross' Nullity shields also offer defensive coverage, both by themselves and in anti-esoteric function by allowing Gisena to spam Tides safely!

Fish, and eating, are both very near and dear to Hunger's heart, so it should come as no surprise that these two acts lead to the Findross Singularity. Power is required, but so is a definition of perfection. Hunger eating a fish is perfection to him, all that is required in addition to this is sufficient quantities of Findross to latch onto this perfection and ignite the singularity.

Perfection is the sound of one eating fish?
 
In Gisena's world, the maiden defined the perfection that Findross worked towards.

Later, a hero orc of equivalent power rose up, and attempted to redefine perfection.

Both of these beings attained Findross Singularities, at which point the concept of perfection they were working towards became self-defined. The maiden became the perfect maiden, and since she held infinite Findross within her she re-defined perfection to being being her. Had the Orcish hero won, he'd have done the same thing, except perfection would be become being more like the orcish hero.

This universe doesn't seem to have ever experienced a findross singularity, or perhaps maiden-equivalents appeared and were immediately beaten up by astral lords or something. Either way, Gisena's advances mean that in this world we don't have to be a woman or an orc we're required to emulate in order to coalesce.

Of course, we could get a findross singularity of our own. Here is how we'd do it.

What you're telling me is that if the orcs won, every Grace would just be a variant of Muscle Wizard?

{X} Let Jotarun Win
 
This doesn't add nearly enough Protection to actually balance your build though. Do you intend to spend 3 picks, 9 Arete on Pearlescence immediately after, thus delaying your EFBs even further? If so, do you think the thread will follow in doing so? Are you actually saving any Arete this way, or merely spending yourself into debt?

Hunger has good CON, high AGI, Praxis blocks and Second Stage. I wouldn't say he's a glass cannon, though his build is offensively focused. With Protection being quite behind, you may find it far more efficient to use high AGI + Praxis blocks, as those are already strengths for him.

Edeldross' Nullity shields also offer defensive coverage, both by themselves and in anti-esoteric function by allowing Gisena to spam Tides safely!

This is a good first way of getting Protection to be a comparatively efficient thing to invest into! Especially with the new shiny Evening Sky advancements.

Similarly, while it would be more efficient for blocking to focus on stats, there are things in the Temple (wide conceptual effects, that spatial bending thing we saw, stuff like the Abhorrent Word) that are unblockable and as such Protection would be the way to go!
 
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Current vote count?

It's, as always, a matter of balance. Of getting away with greed. Playing for your win conditions rather than playing for survival.

Live, and grow strong. The latter requires the former. As a Progression-type Cursebearer, one doesn't need to expend so much power on pure potential at such an early point in the curve, especially for so late a payoff. Unless you're willing to take Pearlescence and delay your EFBs even further, what's the point? What benefit does Inksky yield you that's worth 7 whole Arete?

1.) We're not forced to complete the Temple as soon as possible. Unless the meta-contextual moat thing applies (in which case, Inksky has good scaling too), we can continue to scale up like normal.

Hunger intends to complete the Temple ASAP.
 
I think we will have the time to advance Evening Sky on its own pace.

We won't though. You won't even vote for a superlatively good Evening Sky option now, when we aren't even under the threat of the Apocryphal Curse, have already outscaled it, and have just bought a sword combat-focused 4 pick defining advancement and a sword EFB that gives us sword-specific Praxis. There is no chance whatsoever that you will ever meaningfully vote for any Evening Sky upgrades if you won't vote for this one.
 
This gives both a short-term power boost and long-term advancement. Discount for Pillars is great, but they are in such a faraway future that 5 Arete don't really matter, and I think we will have the time to advance Evening Sky on its own pace. Edeldross even offers a small discount for the Evening Sky EFB.
Though mastery is a long and arduous process
I think if we split our focus on both magic and SORD we will be eclipsed by another one trick pony like Vanrier. While Edeldross provides some interesting potential power-ups, Graces are not something earth shattering. Evening Sky will scale with us and actually grow to cosmic scale.

Imagine Hunger using a planet sized Evening sky and manipulating it to punch something.
 
We won't though. You won't even vote for a superlatively good Evening Sky option now, when we aren't even under the threat of the Apocryphal Curse, have already outscaled it, and have just bought a sword combat-focused 4 pick defining advancement and a sword EFB that gives us sword-specific Praxis. There is no chance whatsoever that you will ever meaningfully vote for any Evening Sky upgrades if you won't vote for this one.
Except this is the worst time to vote for Evening Sky despite what you are claiming. The temple is still a thing we must overcome. Have you forgotten how we have been barely scraping by? As for us out scaling Apocryphal Curse, that might be true in the world outside the temple but in the temple itself? There are still powerful fucks and bad match ups it can throw at us with minimal effort imo.

Sword Praxis is also partially an potential based EFB, once we have sufficiently developed it, than we will talk.
 
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I think if we split our focus on both magic and SORD we will be eclipsed by another one trick pony like Vanrier. While Edeldross provides some interesting potential power-ups, Graces are not something earth shattering. Evening Sky will scale with us and actually grow to cosmic scale.

Imagine Hunger using a planet sized Evening sky and manipulating it to punch something.
If this is the concern wouldn't Quickwater be the answer, since Inkswell offers new advancements related to magic and such?
 
Ok, seems like my greed can't withstand the forbidden magics of devil advocacy. A wholly expected betrayal for the sake of Edelgross. Eldergloss? Anyway, Hunger might yet become a princess by taking the unpronounceable Element!

[X] The Kaguya
[X] 7 Arete Version
[X] Edeldross
 
I think people just want to remove the Evening Sky from our panoply, honestly. There's a consistent refusal to take things that actually improve it. The only recent purchase taken that it offered was Fall of Night, which was purely for its capacity to help the Forebear's Blade be better at swording. Whatever justifications are used, it's still a willful denial of development for something that ostensibly should stand on the same level as our sword and ring.

There's no actual point in having the Evening Sky, if there's never any investment into it. If the thread listens to Rihaku, as they often do, say that "The Evening Sky option is weak and lame and you should never take it in the face of a more powerful option", as he often does, then there's no point beating around the bush about it. The thread needs to just look in a mirror, be honest with themselves, and vote to toss the Eveing Sky into a trashcan and get something else.

No. We will never be in less danger than we are now. Ever. We have proven this. Even on a literal vacation to a resort we ended up getting killed in our 1st form. And by the time we're done with the temple, we will have so thoroughly eclipsed the Evening Sky (pun intended) that there will be no point in having it. This is what your statement actually means in the context you're saying it in:

"Best to take more power (that doesn't allow the Evening Sky to be a relevant component of that power) until the point where we're so powerful from crushing the Temple that the Evening Sky has nothing left to offer us (because it'll still be weak from lack of upgrades), then lament how it was too pitiful (since we never upgraded it) and then have to get rid of it cause it simply couldn't keep up (because we never voted to let it keep up)."
*Knock*
*Knock*
*Knock*

Threefold. Alright. Since you feel so strongly on the matter, I'll take this one on confidence.
But I expect Inksky voters to be willing to spend Arete on the Sky after this point. Not eventually, but when the opportunity arises.
There is no point in choosing potential that we lack the will to pursue.

[X] The Streamline
[X] 7 Arete
[X] Inksky
 
Honestly, I just want us to finally take an option that potentially allows us an avenue to empower Gisena through inducing Graces, that way lies more nullity support and Curse mitigation.
 
This doesn't add nearly enough Protection to actually balance your build though. Do you intend to spend 3 picks, 9 Arete on Pearlescence immediately after, thus delaying your EFBs even further? If so, do you think the thread will follow in doing so? Are you actually saving any Arete this way, or merely spending yourself into debt?
Inksky is just straight up more Arete-effecient though? It's more than 2-Arete's worth of power while discounting Pillars by 5. I don't know if the thread choose to invest in the Evening Sky or no, but his increases it's chances considerably, so that's why I'm voting for it. If we don't take Pearlescence with this we surely won't without this.

Live, and grow strong. The latter requires the former. As a Progression-type Cursebearer, one doesn't need to expend so much power on pure potential at such an early point in the curve, especially for so late a payoff. Unless you're willing to take Pearlescence and delay your EFBs even further, what's the point? What benefit does Inksky yield you that's worth 7 whole Arete?
Its very Arete efficiency actually allows us to take Pearlescence while not being as behind on saving for an EFB due to discount; it's an excellent compromise this way. And the benefits of a better Evening Sky extend far beyond the mechanical for many, I imagine...
 
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