Really the Ring and Pillars match really well with Praxis, since they both cover its hole with restoration and renewal. As a result I'm not sure what Surgecraft type would be best. A defensive one, perhaps?

I'd recommend going for effects that are tricky to obtain through the lens of swords.

It's easy to see how "cutting through space" might get you a teleport, for example, but trickier to see how you might get shadow clones out of swording really good.
 
Really the Ring and Pillars match really well with Praxis, since they both cover its hole with restoration and renewal. As a result I'm not sure what Surgecraft type would be best. A defensive one, perhaps?
Something synergetic with Evening, perhaps?

If we are speaking about arete investments we are not going to make, Surge that would allow us to bring out items of the Pillar dimension to the real world is something I could imagine. I do not think it is a 0 or 2 points element, though. With Pillars being able to create basically anything, it is a 7 pointer minimum, and would've been a 25 if it was not relying on another EFB to work.
I disagree! They both have raw power, but our sword projection is unsuited to wide battlefield control and AoE.
I am not entirely sure that is true as of now, considering how progressively more powerful our bladewinds has been getting - we are already this close to just straight up excaliblasting, and tactics to the tune "just nuke it from afar, we can do that with Thousand Cuts" are regularly paraded around.

That sort of stuff is only going to become grander in scale and more effective with Cut Through, which we are getting now, and Ruinous Valor, one of the most likely upgrades we are to pick.
 
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I disagree! They both have raw power, but our sword projection is unsuited to wide battlefield control and AoE. My opinion is that sheer scale and size is what we need to conquer-- especially if we're going to be taking on enemies and fighting. Thus, they fulfill separate niches in battle, both necessary for our ultimate goals. Please don't call us nonsensical for seeing Surgecraft as useful to our build!

Please note as well that Vertex requires some investment of picks and Arete as well! This doesn't mean we have to spend more on Vertex than Surgecraft, it just means that we have to moderate our expectations about how fast Vertex will scale to our powerlevel, and how strong the Vertices we can buy are. It's demanding and time-consuming for both us and Letrizia, and we don't have much money to spend. I'd rather spend it on the hot springs!

Yes but do remember that the blurb for surge casting says we would have to manipulate letrizia's blood for her to get it which may cost picks, Arete or an option, not to mention that is emotional and spontaneous magic which does not lend itself to planning well. One of the reasons people want vertex is to actually be able to use the nightmare praetor bonus. Beyond this it is not like surgecasting does not take effort to learn or else there would belittle distinction between having leaned and mastered it, while I do expect it is quicker to learn we do stil have to learn it. Further more it is not like letrizia does not have time to develop vertex as we will be leaving her outside the temple.

I do not expect vertex to quickly scale to use, but I do expect it to be useful and less costly than surgecasting. I also do not want descriptions of beam battles that is uninteresting to me and it is what surgecasting seems geared for not utility. While we could try for a utility element I doubt it would give us more than vertex without a steep cost because otherwise why even offer vertex. Also I would like to spend Arete on something I am actually interested in like Fisher King. And for those who say that vertex is not enough power for letrizia, we just passed up on giving her sorcery because we expect to eventually learn how to do so with cut through even when that was only being given as a blurb and not as an actual option when are Arete generation was going crazy.
 
I have no idea if this matters or not at this point but I've had an attack of indecisiveness on magic systems.

[x]Studying the Blade
[x]Pursuing Technological Solutions
[x]Vertex
 
Anyone think a 3000 word omake would sway the results at this juncture? Cause I am sitting on about that much.
 
I have no idea if this matters or not at this point but I've had an attack of indecisiveness on magic systems.
They are both good for different things! We can get some value out either. Even the weakest Surgecrafters can annihilate building blocks, which means hypothetical Surge Letrizia might just be strong enough to join us in the temple right off the bat, for example.
 
Look, by your logic neither will he use Vortex. We are mostly getting it for the daughteru. Hell, we aren't even planning on researching or doing anything with it. Surgecraft would actually be something Hunger would use compared to Vortex.

One of the main benefits of Vertex is how we don't have to use it personally to benefit from it. So long as we're initiated, we can just buy a shitload of attribute enhancements from these people and shove them all in our cloak. Surgecrafting meanwhile requires both effort on our part and represents opportunity costs in combat when compared to using our incredibly powerful sword techniques.
 
Anyone think a 3000 word omake would sway the results at this juncture? Cause I am sitting on about that much.
Mhm... Maybe? I think Surge has a modest lead in omake-force, but Vertex has seven more votes. I'd say it is about enough to solidify the omake-gap and make victory uncertain. Or very certain if it is in benefit to Vertex.

(It is also great time to post omakes because activity bonus increases arete value of omakes lol)
 
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One of the main benefits of Vertex is how we don't have to use it personally to benefit from it. So long as we're initiated, we can just buy a shitload of attribute enhancements from these people and shove them all in our cloak. Surgecrafting meanwhile requires both effort on our part and represents opportunity costs in combat when compared to using our incredibly powerful sword techniques.

On the other hand, we've already been given one example of a Surgecrafting effect that would work wonders with our powers in the form of Fullmight. Even a low cost option could be useful so long as the narrow effect its capable of is something that doesn't overlap with our sword techniques, like some kind of buff, concealment or nonlethal capture ability. That last one would especially be useful given the Doom of the Tyrant. Not having to slaughter people who disagree with us would do wonders for Hunger's mental stability in the long term.

(arguing against your own points because of a marker; what a novel experience)
 
Well Here it is, a write up of a magic or power system that I had previously been thinking about fleshing out and finally decided to after reading this quest and seeing how accretion works. I also put in a simplified explanation, a pretty badly done list of benefits and costs associated with the system, and a write up of a bit of its background.

3160 words

Experience​

Experience is the power of experience made tangible. In many respects there is little difference between experience and Experience, however that is only looking at those who have yet to plumb its depths. Experience is a power whereby the acquisition and employment of experience is optimized in several ways, more than that it compounds upon itself. As long as one is truly learning or gaining experience from practice or project Experience will accumulate as well making it difficult for the individual to be steered any more wrong than the wrongs in their experiences. An example of how this works in practice is as follows, if one were to practice a single motion or technique in specific such as a punch to the kidneys only focusing on perfecting that on specific form of punch to the kidneys it will only garner Experience towards that particular punch and not all punches or other kinds of punches or attacks to the kidneys. It will however garner Experience towards the perfection of similar motions or techniques.

This does not seem particularly notable until you remember that what makes Experience special is that it both applies to everything and that it compounds itself. In gaining the experience of being steered wrong by your experiences, or making mistakes you gain Experience of these situations, gain recognizance of them, while this might not have a measurable effect on ones success at first as one learns to deal with these situations and as one encounters more of them Experience makes them more and more rote and less and less problematic to deal with. In many ways pursuing the power of Experience is pursue the reduction of weakness and incapability.

The second primary trait of Experience is that is allows you to best make use of you prior experiences even in situations where they may have not been previously applicable, commonly referred to as stretching one's experiences. Of course, the farther from the situation of one's experience the attempted application is the less success, but this too grants Experience leading to even more compounding of the rate at which one learns and becomes adept. Using the previous example of someone who has trained a specific punch to the kidneys, while they might only have experience in that specific punch, they can then stretch that experience to increase the rate at which they learn and acquire experience to other punches up to the point which they have Experience with that specific punch further. While it may not entirely apply, it can speed their way to learning what does thus gaining Experience faster.

This leads into a trait of Experience called simulation, whereby an individual possessed of disparate but relevant experience or broad enough experiences may utilize Experience to, with a margin of error proportional to the degree of difference between the situation and their experiences, simulate novel experiences from prior ones.

With even a basic grounding of Experience one's ability to adapt and learn increases dramatically, particularly when working with other who possess Experience. An example of this can be found in terms of teamwork. So long an Experience user has an appropriate amount of experience working as a team, even if it is only with one specific other individual, they will be able to make use of that to adapt to new teams and colleagues. When the members of this prospective collaboration are both users of Experience this effect increases dramatically even to the point of allowing total strangers to work together with a level of competence that would normally take months or years to develop in a matter of days.

As one grows with Experience their ability begins to push beyond a simple increase in improvement speed and applicability. Eventually people begin to be able to reach out and make use of the experiences of consenting individuals. Furthermore, an Experience user can gain experience while doing so compounding their already fearsome rate of development. However, this method is not recommended for frequent use as it is possible for one's personality to me contaminated by the personality and memories of person they are borrowing from. This can become particularly problematic with individuals who have a higher density or intensity of experiences or memories than the borrower. This method should be used sparingly and with caution.

Another change as one's Experience develops is that one begins to be able to learn and grow in ways that were previously impossible applying the concept of experience in place where it previously did not fit. For example, someone with particularly dense Experience could allow themselves to gain experience of resisting blows to not only learn the best way to resist mechanically, but to teach their body to resist force on a conceptual level. This of course takes much time and can be very dangerous as time and time again one must exceed the threshold of their experiences to learn. However, unlike normal experiences these do not become cross applicable and sometimes even conflict, particularly so when two learnings require similar experiences to learn. Typically, only the most skilled of practiced of Experience users have more than one or two conceptual experiences impressed upon themselves.

As Experience users push even further beyond conceptual learning and experience to the furthest reaches of Experience, they become able not only to learn, simulate, and borrow but to wield their experience and its properties as though they were physical. Such an individual can make people literally feel the weight of their experiences, directly convey to them the emotions of their experiences, lead and mislead with revelations sourced from without, or even cut them with its sharpness. It is hard to overstate what can be accomplished by one who has come so far in the path of wielding their experiences, however it must be stated that much like with similar developments in experiential learning what is an is not an effective and efficient usage of this power depends on both the nature of their experiences and the lens through which the user chooses to view and focus them. Those applications which fall outside of this purview will be horrendously inefficient, though still quite effective if not as much as those which fall within. Much like most other limiting aspects of Experience this too can be overcome to some degree with enough time and effort, though the amount involved would certainly be longer than most if not all practitioners would be able to live beyond.

A lesser remarked upon aspect of the power of Experience is of course the ability to replicate one's previous experiences reliably. Whether it is that perfect stroke of the sword, the best rendition of a favorite song, or perhaps some absurd and amazing feat of athletics, with the power of Experience applied, one will be certain to replicate it. There is one issue with this process, namely that in doing this an individual expends much more effort in the accomplishment than they otherwise would have to call upon the feat through the power of Experience. While it can be a good and reliable substitute for purely relying on effort in a pinch, in truly desperate situations it may leave one exhausted before the situation is resolved. Furthermore, as the accomplishment is replicated it may not entirely fit the situation no matter how significant it was originally. All this being said, this ability too grows with an individual's attainments with Experience allowing greater replication, replication of the spirit and concept of experiences, as well as eventually physical replication of objects, auras, or other aspects Experienced. All this at ever greater costs of course.

Last but not least we come to the most forbidden and dramatic art of Experience, that of imposition and enclosure. With a sufficient sacrifice of experience, memory, and often more than just that, an Experience user who has reached the pinnacle of the craft can force a situation that is beyond even his simulation to within the confines of his Experience. This is a last desperate measure that is known to have destroyed nearly all who made use of it and seriously crippled the rest in one way or another.







Short Clearer Explanation​

The power of Experience is a general advancement of the process of becoming experienced in life, at a skill, or in a particular field of knowledge. Essentially as you learn, practice, perform, and gain experience in a task or field, in specific or in general you gain Experience alongside experience. Experience can be viewed as a process by which as one learns and experiences things they gain or generate a power that functions much akin to experience points in many ways. These experience points are gained when real learning takes place whether through practice, or experiences, or through the recontextualization of experiences. These point become harder to gain the more of them one has in a given subject much like many things might be easy to learn but hard to master. What they do is enhance ones the effects of experience in a subject as well as their ability to utilize said experiences appropriately. They also allow one to expand the usage of a particular experience somewhat beyond its original confines though this is easier the closer what they are applying a given experience to is to the original and the more Experience one has in the experience they are expanding to. Through methods like these the difficulty in gaining Experience in other skills, fields, practices, or even perspectives can be lowered thus increasing the rate at which one learns and grows. Furthermore, with enough Experience in broad enough categories one can even simulate experiences they have yet to have from Experience with a degree of accuracy. Not only this, but the rate at which one gains Experience is also increased by the total amount they have, Experience in gaining Experience compounding upon itself.

When certain amount of total Experience is accumulated a person levels up so to speak and gains access to further capabilities with Experience. These capabilities essentially are covered by moving experience from intangible to tangible domains. Beyond becoming skilled beyond reason in a broader variety of subjects than would normally be possible people can have their bodies and minds learn and improve in various ways from increasing durability or regeneration, to actually becoming nocturnal, to learning to have complete control over one's bodily functions and extremities. Typically it takes a long time to truly develop such capabilities and some of them are somewhat oppositional making them difficult to develop and hold at the same time making it rare to find individuals who hold more than one such development. However, it is fairly common on the older and more Experienced practitioners to have as many as three or four.

A further level beyond physical learning is the manifestation of normally metaphorical or intangible properties possessed by one's experiences tangibly. To make others physically feel the weight of their experiences or to be cut by the edge of them. Since this is in many ways the purest expression of one's Experience the practitioner has little to no control over what effects they will be able to manifest upon reaching this stage, those being the manifestation of the character of their experiences up till this point. Typically, the broader the set of effects the less powerful and the more focused the more powerful save in extremely rare cases. There is a school of though that says that it is better to have broader applicability because it then depth can be built more easily, but it really is up in the air whether this is true. It is extraordinarily difficult to reach the level and takes much time and effort leaving it beyond the reach of all but the longest lived and most dedicated practitioners.

Experience can reliably reproduce experiences with proportionate effort. This effort will always be significantly greater than that originally expended to perform the feat. This can be done not only with feats one has done, but with feats one has attained sufficient Experience of even if they are not one's own (the further the feat is from one's own Experience the more effort expended). Feats too far beyond one's capabilities may require permanent sacrifices relating to the feat potentially leaving you in a bad spot. Feats are replicated precisely as they were in the original situation they happened in and thus are not necessarily applicable to a given similar situation. This ability of course develops further with each level up along with the rest of Experience.

Last, anyone beyond the first stage or level of Experience may learn to sacrifice a proportionate amount of Experience to force a situation within the confines of their current experiences. This is a very dangerous last resort as it can be difficult to judge the difference in scope between one's current experience and what they would need to handle the current situation if it is beyond them. Sacrificing more Experience than one actually possesses tends to end with one dead and even more moderate sacrifices can have unpredictable final results after the situation is resolved. Typically, these increase in both permanence and damage with the amount of experience sacrificed.



Breakdown of Experience Capabilities​

Increases the speed of learning and training

Applies to and compounds upon itself

Allows one to stretch experiences or skill beyond what they would normally be capable

Allows one to simulate novel experiences with enough prior data and time

Eventually grows to conceptually apply experience in ways it previously would not such as having the body "learn" to be better through Experience.

Eventually allow one to exert intangible experience as a tangible force in accordance with its characteristics

Allows one to replicate experiences at cost

Eventually allows one to conceptually force a situation into one's experiences at dire cost.

Very Time and stamina intensive in use and development

Slow starter

Only as adaptable as one's current capabilities (or slightly more at cost)

Significant possibility of pushing too far beyond one's capabilities at great cost

Not particularly flashy

Tends to be very inefficient to use its more active components



The Traveler, Patron of Experience​

Of all things that can be said of The Traveler most start with this, though he is not the first traveler, all travelers since the first have done little but follow in his footsteps. Little is known of his history save for rumor, legend, and myth. It is said that his beginnings lay in a world in which oaths have power and that he swore an oath not to die till he had seen and experienced all the wonders and mysteries that there were to see. It is also said that he held to his oath and it's conditions so strongly that not only did his youthfulness persist throughout his time in is home, but that eventually his oath and he himself exceeded the limits of the physical and metaphysical conditions of it and stepped outside to further their travels. It is said that for years uncountable (on account of no society or individual needing to make use of such numbers himself aside) he has travelled from world to world in seek of grand experiences, fresh learning, and most of all novelty. Such are the range of his travels known to be that it is not surprising for two people who met The Traveler in the same year and city to have met him at two very different ages. Many who know and cherish the energy and enthusiasm of his youth, appreciate the skill and wisdom of his middle age, or fear the mischievous and mercurial boredom of his oldest self all life the same eras. For not even time is an obstacle for The Traveler's ranging.

Much more could be said of his legends but insofar as is relevant to us we need only speak of his great wealth of experience. Even apparent in his youth The Traveler did not just appreciate and enjoy his journey but set out upon them to learn. Beyond simple and complex knowledge and the discoveries of the unknowns of reality what he gained from his journeys was a wealth of experiences. Even in youth he was more experienced than the next hundred men put together. Even supposing all these people were cursed or blessed with eventful and interesting lives or were as driven to seek out the unknown as he was The Travelers experience was far beyond theirs still. In his middle age this started becoming a problem, for he had, at least in his own knowing, experienced nearly everything imaginable and could predict much that he had not. His life being tied to his drive to discover and learn showed in the beginnings of aging in him. The Traveler tried much to bring back that sense of wonder, from sealing portions of his memory, to even trying to stir up some trouble now and again to set worlds upon their head. All this and more he tried to little avail, even suppressing himself quite heavily his experience still continued to grow faster than the unknowns for him to explore. At one point his experience became so dense that it was as a physical force or energy becoming something somewhat akin to magic or psychic powers or other such powers.

Intrigued, The Traveler began to study this power for in it he saw perhaps a way to stave off his oncoming aging and death. He experimented with his Experience and found with it the properties of his experience could be made manifest more strongly and concretely than ever before. He plumed the depths of this new power born of his incomprehensibly long life and wanderings. Ultimately, he found that fascinating as it would not take long for him to solve its mysteries, but perhaps he thought, in the hands of other something even he could not predict might come about.

Since that day, The Traveler had made a habit of searching out those who he deems suitable and awakening the power of experience within them. Though theirs is little more than a candle flame compared to his which shines with the might and illumination of all the stars that were, are, and will be, The Traveler looks forwards to the development of those to who he has granted this gift. For this these people call themselves Travelers and attempt to follow in his footsteps accumulating what experiences they can until their dying breaths. Sometimes when a traveler pleases or fascinates The Traveler, he grants them a gift from his vast Experience. With The Traveler watching over them the Travelers have spread across countless worlds sometimes finding each other and more rarely forming bands and caravans that travel about with The Traveler as their patron hoping that their children too will earn an initiation. Such societies have formulated various methodologies and rituals for training, teaching, and seeking the favor of the Traveler and his blessing of Experience.

3160 words
 
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The question is how close are we to 24-25 and whether or not we have a chance of reaching that next round/whether or not Arete debt is an option. If so, an 18+7 setup (Cut Through and a 7 point utility Surgecraft Element) looks extremely tempting
 
I'd recommend going for effects that are tricky to obtain through the lens of swords.

It's easy to see how "cutting through space" might get you a teleport, for example, but trickier to see how you might get shadow clones out of swording really good.
Sword so hard that you are swording in multiple places at once. Kind of like Tsubame Gaeshi, but with more sword. I would argue there is nothing that can't be solved by enough sword!

But more seriously, an utility surge would be ideal, currently, our biggest hole in our build is our current lack of it.
 
Anyone think a 3000 word omake would sway the results at this juncture?
Omakes don't commonly sway people unless they're truly astounding, since it's very difficult to ensnare someone whose heart is set elsewhere via the written word. But they add sway to your vote, which is often just as valuable. So if you have an omake, or any other fanwork, and you're dead-set on a certain option winning, submitting it to help improve your chances is never discouraged.

(Plus it earns arete, so it's like a double-win)
 
The question is how close are we to 24-25 and whether or not we have a chance of reaching that next round/whether or not Arete debt is an option. If so, an 18+7 setup (Cut Through and a 7 point utility Surgecraft Element) looks extremely tempting

I would really rather push towards ring instead of detouring into something less useful.

Speaking of does anyone have any feedback on my write up? I though it was interesting and decently structured but I feel that it could still use a lot of work in places.
 
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To be fair, so does Cut Through+Almost half of the Ruling Ring!

Or Ruinous Valor + Hypothetical Praxis Magic Defying Stance.
I'm on the Ruling Ring track. I think Cut Through finally buys us enough immediate arete-safety to afford it without dying.

And given the ring is a ten fold increase in growth and we've seen what a 4 fold increase with blood picks is like...
 
Just to be clear, I currently consider Surge to be mostly an investment for Letrizia, who has a set Surge Element which does not depends on our Arete investment. If we could get some value out of 0 arete Surge purchase, well, that would be a nice bonus.

Although I do think that 7 arete Surge is probably a viable build, I'd rather go for another EFB instead. In a perfect world it would've been Pillars rather than Ring because after awhile that suspicious blurb about Primacy started scaring the shit out of me, but I'll take what I can get.
 
Just to be clear, I currently consider Surge to be mostly an investment for Letrizia, who has a set Surge Element which does not depends on our Arete investment. If we could get some value out of 0 arete Surge purchase, well, that would be a nice bonus.
I mean... letrizia can't learn it automatically. We'd have to somehow unlock it for her.
 
I would really rather push towards ring instead of detouring into something less useful.

Speaking of does anyone have any feedback on my write up? I though it was interesting and decently structured but I feel that it could still use a lot of work in places.
We should really make sure we're ready for the battle for Primacy before we get Ruling Ring. So delays could justify setting it at a lower mental priority.

Your magic system was amazing, both intuitive and evocative. I didn't really need the cleaner explanation, but I can appreciate you putting it in anyway. Haven't finished reading the part about the Traveler yet. Good job!
 
Even if we aren't ready for the contest of Primacy I still want to get Preeminence:War as soon as possible just so pushing for it is easier in the future. This thread can be easily distracted already and that's without the inevitable Devil's Advocacy against it. I'd like to have as low of a barrier to getting it as possible so we can maximise our chances of actually picking it.
 
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