A Simple Transaction I

[Hirorubie]

It should be interesting to see how the Temple responds to having a significant chunk of their military force killed.

It's probably nonstop panic in there, people rushing around, assembling troops, trying to figure out what happened. I think that they aren't confined to the Temple, and are capable of sending out out an army. The huge Temple doors aren't for letting armies in; they're for letting armies from the interior out.

Meanwhile, Hunger is trying to decide if he should go vacationing or fishing or just doing nothing at all.

If vacation wins, there's a decent chance we come back to find the encampment a smoking ruin.

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I'm really curious about their big guns. With them knowing we are an R-type, and knowing their First Sword just got absorbed, I could see one or multiple Inner residents coming out. Us taking a vacation right now could be for the best.

Like you said, I can easily see them eliminating everything in the area rather than inevitably getting outscaled, and we may dodge them completely and come back when they don't expect it at all.

 

[Projectile]

What makes it so that we "have" to get an EFB as soon as possible? Wouldn't it be better to cover all our bases, ensure we're safe, and then get an EFB?

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It is not, strictly speaking, mandatory. However, the Ring is my precious, therefore it is mandatory.

In all seriousness, though, you're right. We'd probably survive without one, (well, survival isn't guaranteed in the temple) and 7-Arete options are still awesome. EFB's have got more bang for their buck, but it's a lot of buck, but it's a lot of bang, so if we get one we should have more room to go on vacation and fish.

 

[BrainInAJar]

The counter-point is if we never get it; other EFBs are competitive with it in their own ways and it's bad for us if we spend 9 Arete on a Preeminence then don't finish the job for the full Ruling Ring any time soon after that.

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Preeminence isn't bad, it just isn't flashy. 0.5 Rank and 10 stats is amazing. Even if we don't pick the Ring, Preeminence War is a good purchase. That it makes an EFB a 9 Arete purchase just makes it even better.

 

[DarkSideBard]

What makes it so that we "have" to get an EFB as soon as possible? Wouldn't it be better to cover all our bases, ensure we're safe, and then get an EFB?

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Mostly, it's that bigger chunks of power tend to have bigger effects than the cumulative effects of smaller chunks, uniquely good synergies aside. That's why taking 1 4-pick is usually better than taking 4 1-picks.

For Ruling Ring and other potential-EFBs, personally I just see rushing to it as a sensible move, especially when we're trying to outscale our problems. The earlier you get ++progression, the more you benefit from it. Every vote that we don't have it or move towards it, we're depriving ourselves of a lot of XP from future updates.

Of course the only reason to hold off is if you have a strong reason to believe that taking a Ring component pick will get you killed. Which is why something like Heedless War didn't come close to winning. But if you're under no immediate threat, and are in fact mandated to take a rest from that stuff which you know will be successful, then why wouldn't you go ahead with ring votes? Especially in a case like this, where the power it offers is actually pretty high? I guess you could say that it's restricts the Arete cost for our next build vote, but as you could see in the last one, we can accumulate power fine without spending much Arete at all. Form of Rage consumption aside, though that was more incidental than actual Arete cost.

 

[ImperatorV]

Nameless didn't have the Apocryphal Curse. 25 Arete options buy us safety for a long time, by putting us much higher above the Apocryphal curve than an equivalent expenditure of Arete otherwise would - and for progression-type EFBs, they effectively flatten the Apocryphal Curve a significant chunk by themselves.

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Hm. I guess my main concern is that by trying to rush an EFB, we'll completely disregard my pet issue of magic systems. And then once, say, the Ring faction gets an EFB, the sword faction will demand we get their EFB, and we'll never get around to getting magic at all.

The fact of the matter is, the ring faction won a big victory with getting Bloodmight. And the sword faction won a big victory with Uttermost. When everyone immediately starts talking about rushing back into getting Ruling Ring or Cut Through, it feels a lot like Ring had their turn, and Sword had theirs, and now they're both skipping the Mage's turn to get back to their stuff. I'm feeling locked out.

The reason I brought up the topic is I feel like we can afford to delay getting an EFB for a while to let a certain so-far marginalized group have their day. Getting an EFB isn't in my mind necessary, just really good. And there are other really good options.

Also, we have 4 Arete now. 4.5 with Vacation or 5 with fishing contest. We're close to being able to get another 7-Arete choice. I'm just campaigning in advance in the hopes that it will actually help, as much as I doubt it will.

 

[Unelemental]

I don't think Preeminence is bad as you seem to imply. 0.5 Rank is said to be a significant increase at our level and it also comes with ten plusses in stats. Taking care of its prerequisite in a lull in our activities just makes sense. Preeminence can be a perfectly fine choice for survival considering our weakness in esoteric stuff, in which Rank is a partial answer to. Picking it now means our freedom in choosing builds increases, not decreases.

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I would just compare the Balance and the Heedless War builds from back then. Balance only had two Echoes on War and Thousand Cuts instead of Dominion+Preeminence. Yet the Heedless cons said it was weaker than any other build by a large margin. So no, I don't think Preeminence will be enough on its own when we have to choose between it and some other more suitable 7-Arete option to save our ass.

0.5 Rank and +AllStats is good, great even. But it's not a game-changer.

Edit: E.g. if we need esoteric defense, we get Pearlescence, not a generalist option that does a tiny bit of everything.

 

[BrainInAJar]

I would just compare the Balance and the Heedless War builds from back then. Balance only had two Echoes on War and Thousand Cuts instead of Dominion+Preeminence. Yet the Heedless cons said it was weaker than any other build by a large margin. So no, I don't think Preeminence will be enough on its own when we have to choose between it and some other more suitable 7-Arete option to save our ass.

0.5 and +AllStats is good, great even. But it's not a game-changer.

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We had a way bigger weakness when it came to offence in which even Balance fixed with Thousand Cuts, which Heedless did not have, so of course it wasn't as safe. But our circumstances are different now. We have no lack of offence, but are deficient in using and defending against esoteric effects. Gaps in which Rank is much better at filling than more raw power. It basically has become better since then.

 

[Lealope]

The thing I'm most curious about is if ++Progression also impacts other EFBs. I don't think it would since Arete seems like an entirely separate metric for measurement and we haven't seen an EFB that costed more than 1 pick, assuming they cost picks at all, but the idea makes me kinda drool.

Preeminence isn't bad, it just isn't flashy. 0.5 Rank and 10 stats is amazing. Even if we don't pick the Ring, Preeminence War is a good purchase. That it makes an EFB a 9 Arete purchase just makes it even better.

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Yeah but it's not Preeminence on offer here. If it was and we could pick it up, I'd be right there with you since that would leave us a mere 9 Arete and a rare enemy away from getting that delicious Ring. But I don't think Domains are worth it given how common they are and the relatively marginal benefit they provide.

And versatility is another concern too. Chances are, we'll get completely dogpiled by both the strongest Outriders and some Inner Residents when we get back. A bit extra versatility would be nice to have considering the mention of how thoroughly we could get fucked by some bad matchups, which Philosopher's Wreath would provide in spades. Certainly, it would be much less risky than initiating the completely unknown contest of primacy at this point.

Also, c'mon guys, memes aside, the mage voters have worked pretty hard and gotten shafted pretty much every time. At the very least, pick up something that will help facilitate swording like teleportation or temporal acceleration or something.

 

[Maragas]

The thing I'm most curious about is if ++Progression also impacts other EFBs. I don't think it would since Arete seems like an entirely separate metric for measurement and we haven't seen an EFB that costed more than 1 pick, assuming they cost picks at all, but the idea makes me kinda drool.

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It doesn't seem limited like Blood: +Progression
I would bet on all Progression.

 

[BrainInAJar]

Yeah but it's not Preeminence on offer here. If it was and we could pick it up, I'd be right there with you since that would leave us a mere 9 Arete and a rare enemy away from getting that delicious Ring. But I don't think Domains are worth it given how common they are and the relatively marginal benefit they provide.

And versatility is another concern too. Chances are, we'll get completely dogpiled by both the strongest Outriders and some Inner Residents when we get back. A bit extra versatility would be nice to have considering the mention of how thoroughly we could get fucked by some bad matchups, which Philosopher's Wreath would provide in spades. Certainly, it would be much less risky than initiating the completely unknown contest of primacy at this point.

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Anything we can get here has marginal utility since we're Vacationing most likely. At least Dominion is an investment for the future.

And Rank is literally the most versatile thing we can get. It literally helps anything we can attempt. And we don't need to initiate a teste of primacy now; being in a position to pick up an FEB for only 9 Arete whenever we are ready is plenty good too.

Also, c'mon guys, memes aside, the mage voters have worked pretty hard and gotten shafted pretty much every time. At the very least, pick up something that will help facilitate swording like teleportation or temporal acceleration or something.

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A bit late to feel guilt after supporting Uttermost so vehemently...

Considering mage options seem to be getting steadily less support due to repeated losses, I think the boat has sailed on that one.

 

[Thomasfoolery]

Also, c'mon guys, memes aside, the mage voters have worked pretty hard and gotten shafted pretty much every time. At the very least, pick up something that will help facilitate swording like teleportation or temporal acceleration or something.

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I mean, significant ground has already been ceded, we've gone from being a swordsman who had some narrative power magic like abilities to gestalting into blood mage as well. And Ruling Ring will further expand our magical breadth. Just as there a people who want Hunger to be a much more pure caster type there are people who wanted magic to not be a big part of his archetype at all. The way it's talked about as if no compromises have been made seems to be selectively interpreting the facts.

 

[George]

I mean, significant ground has already been ceded, we've gone from being a swordsman who had some narrative power magic like abilities to gestalting into blood mage as well. And Ruling Ring will further expand our magical breadth. Just as there a people who want Hunger to be a much more pure caster type there are people who wanted magic to not be a big part of his archetype at all. The way it's talked about as if no compromises have been made seems to be selectively interpreting the facts.

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Ring is magic but it's not a mage archetype at all, it's based on will and feeling rather than intelligence and logic

 

[Thomasfoolery]

Ring is magic but it's not a mage archetype at all, it's based on will and feeling rather than intelligence and logic

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Yes, but people don't say. "I want Hunger to be a D&D wizard (Insert whatever preferred caster archetype you wish) and that always loses". The thrust is generally "I want more magic, and that always loses" which is re-framing the issue to make it seem as if their specific desires cover a broader range of possibilities than it actually does.

 

[Prospalz]

A large, massive, primary even, part of why I supported Uttermost is that it discounted an EFB massively and made saving/and or work for it a goal actually achivable in the short-term. Short-ish, at least.

With that in mind, I feel that trying to spend roughly 1/3 of a EFB worth on options that do not actually work toward getting an EFB after that is just... I just can't support that, lol. Even going for Ruling Ring instead of straight up saving for Cut Through rubs me in the wrong way slightly, as of now.

I am sure eating a real big crow about that whole "heedless war lost hard and will continue losing" statement I made yesterday huh.

 

[DarkSideBard]

Ring is magic but it's not a mage archetype at all, it's based on will and feeling rather than intelligence and logic

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Come on, that's just splitting hairs. The only real difference is that it's not from a new magic system, instead of just a variant Accretion development.

 

[George]

Come on, that's just splitting hairs. The only real difference is that it's not from a new magic system, instead of just a variant Accretion development.

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How we cast the magic is a real difference. It changes the character archetype including stuff like what attributes we want to improve and how the fights are written.
Your statement here is like saying it'd be the same shit as now if we swung our sword with telekinesis that we manifest by being super smart, dodged by teleporting, and were super frail - as long as we kill enemies with the Forebear's Blade and A Thousand Cuts. It's just utter dismissive nonsense that refuses to empathize with the opposing viewpoint.

 

[Lealope]

Anything we can get here has marginal utility since we're Vacationing most likely. At least Dominion is an investment for the future.

And Rank is literally the most versatile thing we can get. It literally helps anything we can attempt. And we don't need to initiate a teste of primacy now; being in a position to pick up an FEB for only 9 Arete whenever we are ready is plenty good too.

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Rank helps anything we can attempt but it doesn't expand the domain of what we can attempt, which is the issue at hand here. And again, if this was Preeminence, I'd be right there with you. But it isn't, so I think we're better off saving for the future than making an uncertain investment.

A bit late to feel guilt after supporting Uttermost so vehemently...

Considering mage options seem to be getting steadily less support due to repeated losses, I think the boat has sailed on that one.

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I also supported Form of Rage vehemently and look where that went

I think there's still a decent support base for magic options, it's just the lack of opportunity and the constant imminent danger we're end up suppressing them. Even then, Mage Lord was quite competitive. I'm sure there'll be a resurgent interest post-Temple (as distant as those words may feel).

Come on, that's just splitting hairs. The only real difference is that it's not from a new magic system, instead of just a variant Accretion development.

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It's not though. I struggle to properly articulate the difference and will have to think on it more but while the Ring is magic, it's really not a system. It doesn't feel like the Diagram or Sorcery at all; it would be like calling the Ring of Truth a magic system. It's not a matter of intelligence or formality either; there's just nothing to dig into there, nothing to chew on. There's a genuine gap there, which is why the Venn Diagram of Ring and Mage contingents isn't a circle.

 

[Maragas]

Ring is magic but it's not a mage archetype at all, it's based on will and feeling rather than intelligence and logic

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Thats mage for me. I prefer my magic without the logic and intelligence part. Hell, if Rihaku put HP magic as a vote I would vote for it in a heartbeat.

 

[Prospalz]

I'm sure there'll be a resurgent interest post-Temple (as distant as those words may feel

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Well, to be fair, we are... 2/3 through the temple right now, I think?

One last overcoming, then final boss, then we are free, hopefully.

 

[ImperatorV]

Come on, that's just splitting hairs. The only real difference is that it's not from a new magic system, instead of just a variant Accretion development.

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Honestly, that's why I don't like it. It's just Accretion through a new lens, not a new magic system. Accretion is great and I love it, but I've always wanted to see more then just that.

Finding a new branch of Cultivation does not suddenly make Cultivation into the Diagram and Binary magic. It just adds a new way to do Cultivation.

Also, to all the people saying "We don't want a new magic system" - well, I didn't want Bloodmight and I really didn't want Uttermost. We got those anyway. That's fine, I've decided not to stress over it. I wonder if there's a lesson to take there.

 

[DarkSideBard]

It's not though. I struggle to properly articulate the difference and will have to think on it more but while the Ring is magic, it's really not a system. It doesn't feel like the Diagram or Sorcery at all; it would be like calling the Ring of Truth a magic system. It's not a matter of intelligence or formality either; there's just nothing to dig into there, nothing to chew on.

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That's because we're already constantly chewing on Accretion. You're right, Ring isn't its own magic system. It's just Accretion manifesting in a "concept control (Blood)" way. And Accretion is a system that doesn't really have set systems of feats per se, because what can be gotten from it is too variable and personal.

So you're right about the lack of crunch. I think Soul Evocation might be the same way, seeing as how each person has a concept that they embody and draw feats from. Gardener might have been a bit more rule-specific, but also completely lacked the awe-factor of useable battle magic.

Ring for sure fulfills the that aesthetic, at least, and will fulfill it more and more as time goes on and we see more feats with it. Maybe we'll encounter someone using a more tiered magic at some point, like Battle Magic from the original offerings. But we haven't gotten there yet.

 

[Redshirt Army]

All jokes about Ring Spam aside, I do actually quite like Gisena's magic system, since findross ties into the mythic aesthetic of accretion, and it's been strongly implied the systems are linked in some way.

And, as an added bonus, a lot of options tied to getting access to Graces also buff Gisena, which I'm absolutely in favor of.

But when the mage builds become all about cribbing some shitty old wizards curse word collection or doing Naruto fuinjutsu, my eyes roll right out of my head and I lose all interest.

I do hope that if we do take a Grace, it's a lot more interesting and less linear than "more stats", though.

 

[Rihaku]

I would just compare the Balance and the Heedless War builds from back then. Balance only had two Echoes on War and Thousand Cuts instead of Dominion+Preeminence. Yet the Heedless cons said it was weaker than any other build by a large margin. So no, I don't think Preeminence will be enough on its own when we have to choose between it and some other more suitable 7-Arete option to save our ass.

0.5 Rank and +AllStats is good, great even. But it's not a game-changer.

Edit: E.g. if we need esoteric defense, we get Pearlescence, not a generalist option that does a tiny bit of everything.

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Or you get Null Slice! Just cut through their esoteric crap with your SORD.

Gisena does somewhat patch that hole in the first place, though.

I do hope that if we do take a Grace, it's a lot more interesting and less linear than "more stats", though.

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NO ONE DISSES STATS AND GETS AWAY WITH IT.

SIC 'EM, STATS GANG

 

[Projectile]

SIC 'EM, STATS GANG

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There ain't a plus? Ain't worth the fuss.
Simple is strong, plus snake is long.
Numbers go up, now raise your cup.
The true grace is found in the stat space.

 

[ImperatorV]

All jokes about Ring Spam aside, I do actually quite like Gisena's magic system, since findross ties into the mythic aesthetic of accretion, and it's been strongly implied the systems are linked in some way.

And, as an added bonus, a lot of options tied to getting access to Graces also buff Gisena, which I'm absolutely in favor of.

But when the mage builds become all about cribbing some shitty old wizards curse word collection or doing Naruto fuinjutsu, my eyes roll right out of my head and I lose all interest.

I do hope that if we do take a Grace, it's a lot more interesting and less linear than "more stats", though.

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That's good to know. I liked Librarian and Imprisoner a lot, but if Sorcery would see more success I'd also be perfectly happy with that, provided we get graces that add new capabilities rather then just boosting existing ones - which is a feeling you also have.

I guess that tilts things more towards Philosopher's Wreath.