Well, yeah. Full Might puts a lot more of its resources towards immediate power, so in the immediate short term it's absolutely a stronger option than Bloodmight. (Blademight makes Hunger personally even stronger, since it doesn't invest any Arete into boosting allies.)

But I think the difference isn't large enough to make Bloodmight unfeasable, especially since we've still got that reroll that we can leverage into a pair of peer-level combatants, plus a bunch of temple info for us to use Nightmare Praetor on.

And since Bloodmight is feasible, I'm strongly incentivized to pick it, since the value of an early 25 Arete option is obscene. If there's one thing we know from EFB, it's that 10 Beyond Point options are the shiiiiit.
Bloodmight invests a lot of it's power into rank based conceptual effects and given we were outranked by a considerable margin by a monster from the lowest levels does not make me confident in our ranks effectiveness against mid level opponents.
 
You guys could just not take the Brutes! Even with Blademight you have almost a 1 in 5 chance of owing some major favors, and you'll probably (?) outscale them soon anyway! What's the point of taking on this unnecessary risk? It can't even kill you!

Just take the Caravan and be happy with your Mage gains, what could be simpler? Plus, don't you want to move on the plot!?
 
You guys could just not take the Brutes! Even with Blademight you have almost a 1 in 5 chance of owing some major favors, and you'll probably (?) outscale them soon anyway! What's the point of taking on this unnecessary risk? It can't even kill you!
I mean, if we do outscale them the favors will probably be fairly trivial by the time they call on them.
 
So, there are some thing Mage Lord has going for it.

The scaling off of physical stats is very good. We have a lot of physical stats already from Echo-spam, and things like Ruinous Valor, Stranglethorn, and numerous other options, including yet more Echos (always a valid choice), which means we'll be able to rack up Linear Halo bonuses easily.

Azure Moon grants Seven Seals, which gets us another magic system on part with Accretion. Also, Seven Seals was mentioned as being able to do Curse Mitigation through Imprisonment. Seven Seals grants versatility on par with Gardener's Hallow, although Hallow can do permanent boosts and item crafting while Seven Seals can be used in combat. Both are viable picks IMO. I do like Gardener better for aesthetic and because it gets us good food for Letrizia, feeding the kids is important.
 
At first while reading the update I was expecting Dreadbeast, so when the Magus showed up I was genuinely surprised! Ha.

Pretty lucky that we didn't have to use Veterancy! And this array of stuff on offer is pretty cool.

Build

Bloodmight: A kind of magic! I can imagine this having a lot of versatility and capability, and the bonus of getting to save up for Ruling Ring is really, really temping. Explicitly can do healing, short term buffs for us and companions.

Full Might: A package of a bunch of stuff we've been offered before, rounds our build out almost completely. No shinies, but does offer Undying Vanguard to keep Gisena in the game.

Blademight: Arm grow back, weeee! Offers strength-scaling offense, high-grade anti-magic passive and interactive defense, a little bit of free mitigation on all of our curses (!!!), Stats and Rank, advantages against higher-Rank enemies, advantages against groups of enemies, and several progression oppurtunities. Probably the singular best combat-related option in the immediate term, with combat growth potential.

Mage Lord: An awesome magic pick. Allows "Imprisoning" related conceptual effects (ohohoho, Seven Seals) with a huge buff to our effectiveness with it on top, all at the cost of not being able to take more magic effects without getting another 7-Arete pick. I can see useful ways to munchkin this.

Fisher King: You must fish, Hungry Boy! The awesome combination of Dominion: Life and Gardener's Hallow. Honestly the best of this list if taken on their own, out of context. Allows us meaningful progression at much lower risk than the other combat options, and with a much wider scope than the Mage Lord effects. We do already have Might's Repose for timeskip value, so it's not unimaginable necessary, but is useful. Also, I assume is good for making us an economic powerhouse and permanently buffing companions. And hey, maybe we can get a cooking magic to stack on top of this! Imagine the synergies we could get from this Crafting Magic. The most desirable kind. The only thing I'd be worried about is that the Apocryphal Curse and Decimator's Affliciton make it harder to gain value from long term investment.

Overall, I think that we need some measure of immediate power. Mage Lord is good, but if we're picking a magic system then Gardener's Hallow gives greater returns, despite being less focused. Full Might is lacking compared to Blade Might, only having Undying Vanguard as an important bonus over it. Bloodmight is only a good option if you're extremely desperate for Ruling Ring, otherwise being narrower in utility than Fisher King. I can't help but imagine that power is going to matter here. Maybe if we were willing to turn away from this place, or continue on with Apocryphal hanging over our heads, I could see us picking Gardener's Hallow. Hell, I think that it's the most long-term viable, giving us a way to accumulate power at nearly no risk and presenting us opportunities to stack further similar advancements together. But immediate power is the name of the game here, and the option that clearly succeeds at that here is Blade Might. Buuuuuuut it doesn't help solve the problem of companion squishiness and a lack of effective general utility. It's a triangle of opposing needs ://

[ ] Fisher King

This does give us some method of short term gains, healing utility, mid-term party-upgrades, economic viability, potential-in-itself and potential-in-synergy. If i was offered all of these as potential advancement paths myself, I'd have to pick Fisher King for the same reason that I don't go skydiving; I understand risk and actively mitigate it. Plus it's not like we don't have a little time to slow-roll, here. If we wanted, we could cultivate bonuses while steadily farming XP from Knights and sundry, and make up much of the power difference that way. And I really, really believe that this power will kick ass in the post-Voyaging-Realm section of the game.

Social

We have Veterancy still:

Caravan: Information. Eh, we've been okay without it so far.

Amiable Brutes: Highly tempting with Veterancy on the table. With FIsher King, our chances of losing are 4/10 X 4/10 = ~1/5. That feels even less risky than before, where it would have been 1/4 with Veterancy according to previous circumstances. I'm not super after help, and I am still worried about Tyrant procs, but extra help while we have Fisher King and a "Primordial Rune"? That's likely to be worthwhile.

The Shining Paragon:
Everything I said in the last post still stands, except the fact that she likes us less if she doesn't have to save us from danger makes me like her even less. Nah. Plus, why would I ever, ever spend extra Arete when taking Fisher King leaves open the possibility of another 7 Arete option soon?

I think it has to be Brutes. Veterancy makes the risk tolerable, the problems with losing are not obviously terrible (how bad can the favors be? Well, pretty fucking bad. But the are Amiable Brutes, so the favors would likely just be dangerous and difficult, rather than being the kind of moral or aesthetic awfulness that'd make us all angry. I don't see what the Caravan has to offer us, as things stand, that we can get by looking around for people again (if we really must), especially with Fisher King offering up whatever we would want from them anyways, but easier because we don't risk a Tyrant proc. I highly doubt I need to repeat my arguments against Paragon, right?

[ ] The Amiable Brutes

Fisher King + Brutes allows us to invest in a long-term way. The Apocryphal Curse will never ever let us avoid fighting or meaningful danger for long periods of time, but we can keep up with it in a way that doesn't invite even more risk. And the lack of immediate power (at least, power as great as something like Blademight offers) is offset by having the Brutes around, as well as being able to scale companions up using our delicious, delicious abilities. My optimal world is one where we get Fisher King, and then get a progression or synergy for it (pocket dimension garden immune to negative effects from our curses??) of it for another 7 Arete.

[X] Fisher King
[X] The Amiable Brutes
 
It is not Hunger's lot to only be a Destroyer.

Embrace creation, vote Fisher King.
 
I mean, if we do outscale them the favors will probably be fairly trivial by the time they call on them.

There's absolutely no guarantee of that from what you know!

[X] Full Might
[X] The Amiable Brutes

Very torn, willing to flop to Fisher, Blade, or Blood, and I'm not deeply opposed to any of the interaction options, either.

Caravan would be a good pick with Full Might. It gives extra Charisma which is useful in social encounters, not so much against brutes who are already friendly and just willing to spar!
 
Begone, foul full physical build! May be popular because of Vanguard, but for Gisena voters I would argue that Vanguard only solves half the problem. It keep her alive, but doesn't boost her power outside of durability, meaning that for her to stay relevant we'll need to find another way to boost her as well.

Gardeners, Rise Up! The best option. Want Rank? This can do it. Want stats? Same. Healing? Yep. New powers? Hard, but doable, especially with Chief Dominion, which this build can afford relatively soon. This grants us unparalleled power and versatility, and with Dominion: Life we can get it online in a matter of days. Also leads us naturally into more Ring options for those who like Ring. Also, solves the Gisena issue, because we can make her fruits that enhance durability, fruits that give her findross, enhance her nullity, and give her any number of other bonuses! Also, Letrizia asked for food, do you want to disappoint her? After her encouragement was so vital?
Full might solves Gisena's scaling problem becuase her problem isn't offensive power. She's our debuffer not our dps. More con means she can spam more nullity and regen and protection stop her from dying.

The problem with Garderner for Gisena is that the voterbase is never going to agree to spend that many of it's benefits on party members. All the best effects take ages to make and there will always be super tempting options to just take for ourself instead.
 
The problem with Garderner for Gisena is that the voterbase is never going to agree to spend that many of it's benefits on party members. All the best effects take ages to make and there will always be super tempting options to just take for ourself instead.
Presumably we can farm more than one at a time, with additional expense.
 
[X] Blademight
[X] The Amiable Brutes

That went better than it had any right to.

I think I have to keep supporting HANDS, even if the rest of the things tied to it aren't entirely ideal. I'd like a bit more magic in the swording, but martial arts are a decent substitute, and the current magic on tap is vague and ill defined. I think some of that is that I still have buyer's remorse for the Diagram, possibly. That ended up being a tiny handful of discrete powers, with lots of mutually exclusive choices and 'buy it now or never' moments, instead of feeling like a broad system of magic. I don't think I can see any reason these won't end up being similarly more narrow than I would prefer/expect from the blurb.

Funny how that makes things that are guaranteed to be more narrow in scope more attractive in comparison. No disappointment, I suppose.

All that aside, I also am concerned about blood domain. Non-living opponents are something I expect to see pretty much immediately here. This fight already had a golem, and it is very likely the knights here also would no be affected by the ring.

Plus, the Curse mitigation, and safest immediate future, and so on are rather good, overall.
 
Full might solves Gisena's scaling problem becuase her problem isn't offensive power. She's our debuffer not our dps. More con means she can spam more nullity and regen and protection stop her from dying.

The problem with Garderner for Gisena is that the voterbase is never going to agree to spend that many of it's benefits on party members. All the best effects take ages to make and there will always be super tempting options to just take for ourself instead.

To the first point, I'd argue that the best thing we could do for Gisena is get her another Coalescense. Which Gardener's Hallow can do, Vanguard can't. And Gardener can also get her stat buffs, although admittedly not nearly as much as Vanguard. Fisher King can afford Vanguard next vote though, so it's still better for Gisena long-term.

To the second point, I would vote to cultivate stuff for our companions. Can't speak for everyone else admittedly. But I think people do care about Hunger's friends and would vote for things to help them.

Also, we get wholesome scenes of Hunger making food for Gisena and Letrizia! It's like Today's Menu for the Emiya Family.
 
Word of Rihaku, Azure Moon gives us access to H E A L I N G

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

A Simple Transaction I Original

EFB ended successfully, and AST did not, so we're using EFB's system. That said, though the system has been nearly transposed wholesale, there are substantial differences - you've been offered Arete almost every single vote option this week, so the amount of Arete Hunger generates himself can be...
 
Just as a reminder, here is Gardener's Hallow

[ ] The Ring of Power - Gardener's Hallow (7 Arete, 2 picks) - Unto this land, I give my blood.

By infusing vegetation or livestock with his blood, the wielder may impart upon it supernatural properties. These range from the basic (consuming this fruit grants you an Echo of the Forebear) to the incredible (consuming this cow awakens your full Astral Rank from your Defensive Rank and remove the Defensive Rank penalty) to the spectacular (consuming this fish ignites a meta-singularity of findross within you; should you survive then you may theoretically wield the True Quintessence). Similar effects don't stack.

All efforts beyond the basic take considerable amounts of time, effort, and unique resources to cultivate. These can be lessened via the other advancements of the Ring of Blood, especially its Chief Dominion and pre-requisites.

The immense, unmatched versatility here solves healing, empowering allies, empowering ourselves, getting new magics, and more.

Part of why I like the Fisher King is because I want to take a break from all the fighting. We'll have one last non-lethal fight with the brutes, or maybe buy some stuff from the caravan, then actually talk to people. Learn stuff.

The garden gives us something to do rather than constantly and endlessly risking dying. It means we can build something. A garden, to rest from our labours. Something beautiful, something that isn't killing.

It also empowers the Ring, which is important both for getting that 24 Arete pick, and because the Ring is tied to the call of the Temple. I'm pretty confident that the Temple's call will only get stronger as time goes on and we take artifacts, so this is pretty critical.

You guys could just not take the Brutes! Even with Blademight you have almost a 1 in 5 chance of owing some major favors, and you'll probably (?) outscale them soon anyway! What's the point of taking on this unnecessary risk? It can't even kill you!

They seem like cool dudes. Now that I think about it, they hang around camp. Maybe we could hire them using magical Gardener's fruits once we get there?

[X] Fisher King
[X] The Wandering Caravan
 
I will say that using these Apocryphal-free days to push into the Temple is probably safer in the long run than trying to complete the Temple while the Apocryphal Curse is in full swing... an advantage the Might options have that the mage options do not!

Mage Lord is good, but if we're picking a magic system then Gardener's Hallow gives greater returns, despite being less focused.

Mm, that's not necessarily true until the ultra late game. Soul Evocation + Linear Halo is very strong.

Full Might is lacking compared to Blade Might, only having Undying Vanguard as an important bonus over it.

It also has better protection, better ranged attacks and more Charisma!

Everything I said in the last post still stands, except the fact that she likes us less if she doesn't have to save us from danger makes me like her even less. Nah. Plus, why would I ever, ever spend extra Arete when taking Fisher King leaves open the possibility of another 7 Arete option soon?

One can hardly be expected to control one's sense of camaraderie on the battlefield!

I think it has to be Brutes. Veterancy makes the risk tolerable, the problems with losing are not obviously terrible (how bad can the favors be? Well, pretty fucking bad. But the are Amiable Brutes, so the favors would likely just be dangerous and difficult, rather than being the kind of moral or aesthetic awfulness that'd make us all angry. I don't see what the Caravan has to offer us, as things stand, that we can get by looking around for people again (if we really must), especially with Fisher King offering up whatever we would want from them anyways, but easier because we don't risk a Tyrant proc. I highly doubt I need to repeat my arguments against Paragon, right?

Why not just take the Caravan for the simple lack of risk? The Brutes aren't offering anything that would be relevant long term!
 
Blademight has mitigation, which is so completely absurd I'm questioning it. Especially since it probably leads to a 25 arete option that *also* has mitigation. It also adds immense offensive power, but it's a bit specialized as anti-magic.

Full might is your basic Knight build - sword special, defenses, protected party.

Which is better is situational and personal preference.
It has a follow up ability that's anti all and it's anti hero ability apparently evolves into anti everything so it's probably just that we fought a mage hero this update.
 
Caravan would be a good pick with Full Might. It gives extra Charisma which is useful in social encounters, not so much against brutes who are already friendly and just willing to spar!
Caravan is safe, true, and we don't need the Charisma for the Brutes, but I have been wanting Undying Vanguard and to close build gaps, and I'm actually quite curious about meeting/allying with the Brutes, they seem like cool guys.

Hm, if we take Fisher and lose the spar, would offering them priority picks from the harvest a few times count for the favors?
 
[X] Fisher King
[X] The Amiable Brutes


The appeal of the farming minigame is too strong to resist. Not that I'm not enjoying the constant challenging fights where we almost die, but... not being on the edge of death is starting to feel like a distant dream, the grave is calling me.

First should be a +Regenfruit, if that's not too horribly complicated, so we have more blood to bleed with. Echofruit, Opalplum, Healpotato, Tempbufffcarrot, Findrossnut, yay! NullGisena'sfinger?
 
The immense, unmatched versatility here solves healing, empowering allies, empowering ourselves, getting new magics, and more.

Part of why I like the Fisher King is because I want to take a break from all the fighting. We'll have one last non-lethal fight with the brutes, or maybe buy some stuff from the caravan, then actually talk to people. Learn stuff.

The garden gives us something to do rather than constantly and endlessly risking dying. It means we can build something. A garden, to rest from our labours. Something beautiful, something that isn't killing.

This. I've brought up mental health before, the way we've been pushing Hunger into deadly fight after deadly fight might make him into someone who can't complete his quest for vengeance because he overstrained himself, or took one suicidal option too many. Characterization is important, and if we say "we'll work on a less suicidal characterization later" it might come too late.

I will say that using these Apocryphal-free days to push into the Temple is probably safer in the long run than trying to complete the Temple while the Apocryphal Curse is in full swing... an advantage the Might options have that the mage options do not!

...Now, I understand why people complain about the Devil's Advocacy thing. If Gardener and Mage Lord both lose then I will become endlessly salty over passed-up options and thus become a true Rihaku quest voter.
 
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