If there is one thing I've learned in these quests, it's that Rihaku likes sacrifice having meaning. I don't think he'll make doing something like replacing Agi with Con to make up for Strangelthorn completely impossible, but it's not going to be easy or happen anytime soon.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
A pure Echoes build has almost 2x agility as compared to a Stranglethorn +4x Echoes sooo yeah.
And we are running a heavy AGI build so it hurts even more immediately.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I was not saying all options are equally good. I was saying that options that involve sacrifice usually come with a short-term boost in exchange for long-term cost, which will always eventually have the cost weigh more, if we survive long enough. That's just the nature of things. So in a sense I was saying the exact opposite - that sacrifice options are worse in the long term.
Shrug.
Stranglethorn is a power multiplier that comes with what I find to be an acceptable price, and one that we can overcome.
The question is do you value 1 Con and 1 Str more or less than .2 agi?
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
False equivalence, Stranglethorn also spends 4 options.
Rune King, Wreath and Ring options so far are the only ones to offer +wisdom, which I think is getting more and more important day by day..
Ah, I see. But the Rune King is a pure potential option, as is evident from its effects. Nothing says the sacrifice is always so straightforward as potential -> power, it can go in the other direction too or just sacrifice things that have emotional impact.
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Remember, the best defense is a good offense. What's the point of being able to take a few more hits if you can't scratch your opponent in the slightest? Better to prevent wounds than cure them and the perfect form of prevention is making your enemies into corpses. But how, you ask? Don't worry, Ruinous Valor and Thousand Cuts have got you covered. Between powerful, scaling attacks and a hilariously powerful burst, you'll never have to worry about your attacks plinking off the enemy again.
That's not quite right though? Generally, Rihaku weighs options on a spectrum of power to potential; sacrifice doesn't necessarily have a connection to either. In isolation, both branches of the Bearing will be roughly equal, their only difference will be in their power vs. potential ratio. Considering how Sharp gives us our eye back immediately while the Rune King gains nothing, it's clear the former is more power and the latter is more potential.
While there might exist the possibility to develop special eye powers, they'll require additional effort and we have no idea where they'll fall on the spectrum. Considering the other one is a pure potential type, I'm guessing that an equivalent amount of effort would do more for us when invested into an entirely new magic system, rather than expansions of Accretion.
That's not quite right though? Generally, Rihaku weighs options on a spectrum of power to potential; sacrifice doesn't necessarily have a connection to either. In isolation, both branches of the Bearing will be roughly equal, their only difference will be in their power vs. potential ratio. Considering how Sharp gives us our eye back immediately while the Rune King gains nothing, it's clear the former is more power and the latter is more potential.
While there might exist the possibility to develop special eye powers, they'll require additional effort and we have no idea where they'll fall on the spectrum. Considering the other one is a pure potential type, I'm guessing that an equivalent amount of effort would do more for us when invested into an entirely new magic system, rather than expansions of Accretion.
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- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Again, it only puts us just above the level we were when we first entered the Temple. You're acting like we grow cement shoes.
And getting Stranglethorn causes us to be a Con heavy build.
Pick number is only important in the short term, so no. In terms of that it's somewhat equivalent to the Cuts+Valor build. Not everything is an echo.
As for the eye thing... I'll admit I'm probably wrong and just shut up.
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Dark Abstraction
Infrequent Participant
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- United States
I said I would come back later, but I lied. I'm just gonna post piecemeal, walls of text are beyond my exhausted self right now.
To be honest, I don't really care that much about To Shatter Heaver for all magic systems, so the Rune King choice doesn't really do much besides lock in mutilation; we don't have any other magics yet that would benefit, and even once we do it doesn't really matter that much; we're a Progression Cursebearer that grows from killing things, so we'd grow faster than normal anyway. And we'd improve our magics with Picks and Arete, too, so it's not like "muh faster than normal growth" wouldn't have an outlet.
I don't really care about potential eye abilities later on either (Naruto occular asspull magic poisoned that well for me), but I do like what it does for Hunger. The reclamation of his eye is a visible (pun absolutely intended) step towards growing beyond his past; he's not forgetting it, or leaving it behind, but it would be one more way of spitting on the Tyrant's grave and becoming more of the man his companions sacrificed themselves for; a hero with a vision (haha, again!) for a brighter future and the will to strive for it against all odds.
To be honest, I don't really care that much about To Shatter Heaver for all magic systems, so the Rune King choice doesn't really do much besides lock in mutilation; we don't have any other magics yet that would benefit, and even once we do it doesn't really matter that much; we're a Progression Cursebearer that grows from killing things, so we'd grow faster than normal anyway. And we'd improve our magics with Picks and Arete, too, so it's not like "muh faster than normal growth" wouldn't have an outlet.
I don't really care about potential eye abilities later on either (Naruto occular asspull magic poisoned that well for me), but I do like what it does for Hunger. The reclamation of his eye is a visible (pun absolutely intended) step towards growing beyond his past; he's not forgetting it, or leaving it behind, but it would be one more way of spitting on the Tyrant's grave and becoming more of the man his companions sacrificed themselves for; a hero with a vision (haha, again!) for a brighter future and the will to strive for it against all odds.
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If we take Zweihander, we can express our defiance of him with both hands!
Rihaku
The Internet
Current vote?
Excuse me? The best defense is clearly the Forebear's bearing. It even says so in the blurb.
Excuse me? The best defense is clearly the Forebear's bearing. It even says so in the blurb.
If he was arguing against it, then I'm simply in agreement. Nothing wrong with that!
There is something deeply beautiful in the idea of entering the temple scarred and returning whole. Like the phases of the Moon, his deformities are shown to be only temporary, a single stage in a larger process. Instead of becoming the living tombstone for his comrades, their memory becomes his enduring foundation.
Yeah, I'd be okay with that outcome.
He has the best defense, the best offense, the best Rank-ups... can't he leave something for the other Artifacts?!
Rihaku
The Internet
Hm... are your total stats really high enough that you can afford to give up 4 +s for Ruin scaling and an arm? You're still in a fairly dangerous situation here and more AGI + CON would be helpful. Triple Echo + Thousand Cuts would work better for your current troubles than Ruinous Valor + Cuts.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
You're arguing with people who want Hunger whole. Stat arguments aren't gonna work.
Hey now, don't be like that. We voted in Vendetta over Forsaken Mask!
Dark Abstraction
Infrequent Participant
- Location
- United States
Yes, because the only thing better than flipping off the Tyrant is presenting the finger of defiance with both hands. Don't think I won't vote for that option down the road.
Usually I'm somewhat bothered by maiming protagonists just because they don't start out that way so it forever tarnishes my mental image of what they look like, but with Hunger he started out horrible mutilated so I'm not especially bothered and if the possibility of regaining his missing parts were impossible I wouldn't mind tremendously. However, being who and what he is now, there isn't any reason for him not to gain the capacity to be restored once more to his whole self, and more than that doing so has a strong thematic relevance to him, as I've expressed. So in an unusual circumstance, the one protagonist I don't mind being maimed is also the one I will push the strongest to regenerate himself.
If he becomes hideously injured further down the road in a fashion which is of his own decision, that would be an opportunity for me to potentially vote to allow it to remain (I was cool with Ishida flash-incinerating his arm with the Skyfather bolt because it was his decision to do it), but only after we've conquered the Tyrant twice by undoing the [physical] damage he wrought upon Hunger.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Ring has the best progression and most powerful utility. Evening Sky has more broad spectrum utility. Though FB and Ring are both gifts of the Accursed while ES isn't. Naturally ES has the disadvantage here.
- Location
- Rivendell
Applying for the .05 Arete signature!
'I have utility' is what people that aren't the Forebear console themselves with.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Eh, why not try a 4x Echo build.
[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] 3x Echo of the Forebear
[X] Thousand Cuts
[X] Keep Up Momentum
Doesn't use Arete, maxes out our stats, has synergy with whatever option lies ahead further in the temple, what's not to like?
[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] 3x Echo of the Forebear
[X] Thousand Cuts
[X] Keep Up Momentum
Doesn't use Arete, maxes out our stats, has synergy with whatever option lies ahead further in the temple, what's not to like?
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- Location
- Omniverse #1345
I mean, the Forebear apparently eventually died so...