Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Is now really the time to be greedy?
And if we are going to be greedy, surely there are better options?
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
And if we are going to be greedy, surely there are better options?
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Also, @Shard: Why are you assuming we can't use Establishment now? We've been trapped in the Temple. The Anteroom seems like exactly the place for it to take root.
Is it greedy? We got +2 agi in the temple already, so I'm putting us back to about our starting agility in exchange for double Con, Str, and bringing Gisena along... who also benefits from that doubled Con. Her Con will be ridiculous.
I swear I will try to ram through +agi options in the future to make sure it doesn't get left behind, if that means anything to you.
...Besides, I am a fan of the aesthetic of a Hero that's apparently slow and powerful... that puts up sudden speed that's so ridiculous that it doesn't even make sense. Like Hercules in the Fate Franchise.
Is it greedy? We got +2 agi in the temple already, so I'm putting us back to about our starting agility in exchange for double Con, Str, and bringing Gisena along... who also benefits from that doubled Con. Her Con will be ridiculous.
I swear I will try to ram through +agi options in the future to make sure it doesn't get left behind, if that means anything to you.
...Besides, I am a fan of the aesthetic of a Hero that's apparently slow and powerful... that puts up sudden speed that's so ridiculous that it doesn't even make sense. Like Hercules in the Fate Franchise.
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Rihaku
The Internet
That's a rather silly objection. The trees are alive, and so was the wurm. But even if you couldn't plant in the Temple, it would hardly matter.
None of them are strictly unique, but many of them are extremely rare. Gardener's, Dreadnought's, and Stranglethorn in descending order of rarity.
The eternal question of safety versus greed! But perhaps the answer is contained within the philosophy itself - Live, and Grow Strong!
That said, stats don't perfectly translate to each other even with multipliers - there are some AGI tests that no amount of STR and CON will pass, just as there are CON tests that no amount of AGI can handle. Dodging an attack in time, resisting a poison cloud, etc. Of course with magic this isn't strictly the case but Rank already offers comprehensive power.
None of them are strictly unique, but many of them are extremely rare. Gardener's, Dreadnought's, and Stranglethorn in descending order of rarity.
The eternal question of safety versus greed! But perhaps the answer is contained within the philosophy itself - Live, and Grow Strong!
That said, stats don't perfectly translate to each other even with multipliers - there are some AGI tests that no amount of STR and CON will pass, just as there are CON tests that no amount of AGI can handle. Dodging an attack in time, resisting a poison cloud, etc. Of course with magic this isn't strictly the case but Rank already offers comprehensive power.
Planting Laurelin and Telperion, when we bear the Apocryphal Curse? Sounds like a good way to attract spiders. On the other hand, if our blood can imbue vegetation with vernal splendor even in the dead of winter, no doubt something really pretty would grow from our corpse!
Of course the Gardener's Hallow's got enormous potential in the long run, but synergistic Ring options would have to face down Forebear's Blade upgrades in blurb-to-blurb combat in order to win and we all know that's not happening. Where the Forebear's concerned, to dissent is folly.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Ramming through +agi options with a *0.8agi option sounds spectacularly inefficient.
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[ ] Retreat to the Antechamber
Let's be real, this is an amazing haul for today. Things went better than we could have possibly expected, let's not push our luck. If we go ahead right now, we'd have only half of a health bar between us and the Form of Rage. Given how it's entirely possible that the Form just won't proc when fighting these guys, we should be at full health before we keep dungeon diving or there's a very real chance that we just die.
Let's be real, this is an amazing haul for today. Things went better than we could have possibly expected, let's not push our luck. If we go ahead right now, we'd have only half of a health bar between us and the Form of Rage. Given how it's entirely possible that the Form just won't proc when fighting these guys, we should be at full health before we keep dungeon diving or there's a very real chance that we just die.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Get more Swole, unlock new progression routes and possibly leave the deathtrap dungeon?
[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] The Ring of Power - Gardener's Hallow
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
[X] Yes, Obviously.
[X] The Ring of Power - Gardener's Hallow
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Only if I'm planning to grab things that are just +agi... Which... hasn't actually been anything we've ever gotten. Remember that Echo is a +agi option, and it gets a significant value boost from stranglethorn.
In this, at least, you have my complete agreement.
...As an aside, would you still have supported Rage so strongly if you knew how likely it was for the trigger proc to fail?
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ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
So, guys. Remember this:
This was a really popular choice for our eventual 25 Arete spend back in the day. Now, take a look at this:
Now, it will take a lot of time, effort, and resources, but we can get a 25 Arete pick... From a 7 Arete pick. Not even touching the many, many other things we can get from Gardener's Hallow - honestly anything we can think of can probably be done if we're willing to put in the effort. Supreme versatility, that is applicable to both ourselves and companions. Opportunities like this don't come about very often, and if we take 2x Echo with it then it's extremely safe. Are we giving up a lot of other opportunities to take this? Yes, but no other option offers anywhere close to the sheer overwhelming power and breath of options that this one does.
Hell, we can probably grow a plant that just straight-up grants us Stranglethorn. It'll be hard, but it's most likely possible.
Also, do any of you like Ring Dominion and its successors? I do, and Garderner's Hallow incentivizes us to take Ring advancements, especially Dominion:Life and Chief Dominion, as they dramatically power up Gardener's Hallow.
This was a really popular choice for our eventual 25 Arete spend back in the day. Now, take a look at this:
Now, it will take a lot of time, effort, and resources, but we can get a 25 Arete pick... From a 7 Arete pick. Not even touching the many, many other things we can get from Gardener's Hallow - honestly anything we can think of can probably be done if we're willing to put in the effort. Supreme versatility, that is applicable to both ourselves and companions. Opportunities like this don't come about very often, and if we take 2x Echo with it then it's extremely safe. Are we giving up a lot of other opportunities to take this? Yes, but no other option offers anywhere close to the sheer overwhelming power and breath of options that this one does.
Hell, we can probably grow a plant that just straight-up grants us Stranglethorn. It'll be hard, but it's most likely possible.
Also, do any of you like Ring Dominion and its successors? I do, and Garderner's Hallow incentivizes us to take Ring advancements, especially Dominion:Life and Chief Dominion, as they dramatically power up Gardener's Hallow.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
[X] Yes, Obviously.
Not spending 2 Arete for Stranglethorn now. We need the AGI, and an extra Echo never hurts.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks)
-[X] Rune King
I like wizardry, I cannot lie. Clearly the Odin aesthetic. Incidentally it looks like Einhender is the Tyr aesthetic. Not surprising I guess given the germanic naming.
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
Geez guys. Lets not push our luck again. We have to HEAL UP. We don't have Rains, so we are probably operating, at, what, 75% efficacy?
Not spending 2 Arete for Stranglethorn now. We need the AGI, and an extra Echo never hurts.
[X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks)
-[X] Rune King
I like wizardry, I cannot lie. Clearly the Odin aesthetic. Incidentally it looks like Einhender is the Tyr aesthetic. Not surprising I guess given the germanic naming.
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
Geez guys. Lets not push our luck again. We have to HEAL UP. We don't have Rains, so we are probably operating, at, what, 75% efficacy?
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Gardener is very powerful. I'll give it that and more.
It also has almost no practical use right now and we are underleveled for where we are.
When the purchase itself warns you these things are slow and take rare resources you should not immediately go "So we can get everything using this pick". because we can, it will just take too long.
It also has almost no practical use right now and we are underleveled for where we are.
I expect that to be the work of at least a decade, using the hearts of a dozen creatures like the one we just killed.
When the purchase itself warns you these things are slow and take rare resources you should not immediately go "So we can get everything using this pick". because we can, it will just take too long.
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Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It would have certainly demoralized me. To be honest, I was thinking about switching to Murderer's Panoply for a while there, since it was also cool and was really just the most comprehensive and sensible option over all. After all, since we already had Second Form, it probably wouldn't have been our last chance to pick up Rage. If someone highlighted the trigger proc to me before Murderer's Panoply was dropped out, I might've switched or offered to sell my vote.
And it's super duper cool, for sure. It also does nothing for us right now, while we're exploring this extremely dangerous dungeon that's way too high level for us. That's the same dungeon that we only entered because a rapidly scaling enemy is likely to hunt us down in the near future. The amount of effort necessary to get meaningful gains from Gardener precludes its immediate usage. Considering the situation we're in right now, that's really, really bad.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
[X] No
[X] Hunger - Stranglethorn
[X] Undying Vanguard
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
Stranglethorn gives us stonks con. Even if we value Agility as twice as good as strength or con it still makes future echoes picks better. The earlier we pick it up the better it is for us because the +20% rank isn't applied retroactively and rank is definitely more valuable than agility.
It synergises incredibly well with vanguard becauses it doubles all the con that it provides to our party members. If we later take ruinous valour we get 10 str! Dreadnoughts bearing would give us 14 con if we took it later!
With enough con we can just tank all the attacks with our face instead of dodging like a wimp!
[X] Hunger - Stranglethorn
[X] Undying Vanguard
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
Stranglethorn gives us stonks con. Even if we value Agility as twice as good as strength or con it still makes future echoes picks better. The earlier we pick it up the better it is for us because the +20% rank isn't applied retroactively and rank is definitely more valuable than agility.
It synergises incredibly well with vanguard becauses it doubles all the con that it provides to our party members. If we later take ruinous valour we get 10 str! Dreadnoughts bearing would give us 14 con if we took it later!
With enough con we can just tank all the attacks with our face instead of dodging like a wimp!
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
A Gardener's Hollow Route is gambling on us finding a way to retreat I suppose. Leave the dungeon. Explore hunting and gardening prospects elsewhere, find a way to break the call's influence on us.
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
Yes. We are retreating, consolidating forces, and scaling up to meet other enemies similar to the wurm we just vanquished. We are doubling our tanking values, and we still haven't expended Form of Rage. I'd say we're safe enough to take it, and in the short-term it's not even that bad.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Honestly, all of the current builds are greedy in one way or another. Stranglethorn is sacrifcing the agi we won against the Knight and slower future gains in it for doubled con and str.
Ruinous Valor/Cuts is sacrificing any additional form of defense in exchange for significantly improved offense.
And Dreadnought is sacrificing any hope of increased offense for more defense and Con.
Oh, and Gardener's Hollow is sacrificing immediate power for future potential.
Ruinous Valor/Cuts is sacrificing any additional form of defense in exchange for significantly improved offense.
And Dreadnought is sacrificing any hope of increased offense for more defense and Con.
Oh, and Gardener's Hollow is sacrificing immediate power for future potential.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
honestly... yeah, a synergizing means of advancement plus trying to escape this trap is probably just the wisest move here.
[X] Yes, Obviously
[X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
[X] The Ring of Power - Gardener's Hallow (7 Arete, 2 picks)
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber
Rihaku
The Internet
The power of the Ring may as yet surprise you. After all...
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
Plus, you guys sacrificed King of Thieves so that more mage options would appear, and then haven't taken a single mage option! This is a good opportunity to get in on a magic system that others will be hard-pressed to counter or replicate! And it leads naturally into Ring of Blood.
Arise, Arise, Men of the Garden!
Fell Blade awakes: Ghostflame and slaughter!
Hilt shall be driven, sword become plowshare;
A Hoe-day, a Green Day, ere the orchard rises!
Sow now, reap later! Plant to the golden forever!
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
*adds "Carefully read drawbacks and quiz Rihaku on anything that sounds vaguely bad" to his todo list*.
Which means...
@Rihaku, can you give an example of how long an incredible or spectacular feat with Garden would take? And/or what kind of rare resources would be required? Just so people have some context. We clearly misunderstood how often Rage can fail, I don't want a repeat.
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
If we pick up Ring advancements (which are pretty darn good on their own), it'll be easier. But you're right, it doesn't help us much in the now. We're honestly pretty OK at the moment though, even without buying anything other then 2x Echo we'll be fine for further dungeon exploration once our second form replenishes. We were ok today, and having 4x Echo more and still having not even touched Form of Rage we'll probably be ok tomorrow. And I really don't want to give up on a unique advancement that has this much raw potential. We can afford to be a little greedy if we continue to play the Temple conservatively.
Say... I wonder....
Would it be possible for Gardener's Hallow, if we put enough into it, to grant access to a from of the Praxis? Noble most likely, the others I suspect are out of the reach of such magics. It can grant full-on EFBs, so maybe such a thing is possible...
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Don't forget a 20% increase to our rank gains in the future as well.
We're going to continue being underleveled with any pick save Stranglethorn, and even then it's questionable. Anyone who wants an option that isn't it has a myriad of choices - but many small plans fall before singular big ones. Overt power is a centralizing force, if nothing else.
I don't expect we'll get more than entry-level benefits from it for years. But I also know it's repeatable, shareable, and doesn't inherently require combat with level-appropriate foes. Those are all things we've got real trouble with, and it's foreordained we're going to need something to strengthen our allies at some point. We've got no guarantee of options this broad or protected ever coming up again - combat-based advancement is the exact opposite of reliable.
Simply put: do we really need Stranglethorn, or will two Echoes get the job done?