A Simple Transaction I

[Wolfy]

It kind of seems like this is a reiteration of the choice that started the quest. Do you think the world would be in a better state at this stage if Hunger hadn't chosen Vengeance then?

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I dunno man, Human Sphere is pretty fucked right now. They went from borderline Star Trek to blasted Khonrian hellscape of eternal warfare, strife and suf-

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oh nevermind, they are in turbo heaven of hyper accelerated bliss. Wow it is like Apo doesn't give a shit about how well off random people are or something.

 

[ImperatorV]

It kind of seems like this is a reiteration of the choice that started the quest. Do you think the world would be in a better state at this stage if Hunger hadn't chosen Vengeance then?

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This is impossible to directly gauge, as we have no idea what Freedom Hunger would have gotten up to, nor do we know how effective Aobaru would have been at improving conditions in the Voyaging Realm and Human Sphere without Hunger's intervention.

In the most charitable scenario, the Voyaging Realm and Human Sphere would eventually have ended up in comparably good state under the theme park manager's stewardship without the ravages of Dien Bravo (who was only awakened by the Apocryphal Curse), but with a more extended period of time under the late-stage capitalism of the Republic. Meanwhile, Hunger and Catherine would have been off having heroic adventures in another world promoting the virtues of democracy that pre-Curebearer Hunger was dedicated to.

In the least charitable case, Hunger and family would have withdrawn from heroic action, a well deserved rest honestly, if one that would in some cases result in a worse political situation locally. While Aobaru could hypothetically have taken centuries to achieve control of the Voyaging Realm, adopted a laissez-faire leadership style that allowed evils to flourish out of sight, and have been unable or unwilling to affect the Human Sphere at all. Him outright dying seems unlikely given what we know about ontological importance and heroes, but it's possible, which would obviously make things much worse.

The truth could be either of those or somewhere in between the two. I would also like to point out that if Hunger had died against Dien Bravo, who only was a problem due to the Apocryphal Curse, the situation for this world would be objectively worse then if Hunger had never arrived at all. The risk with Vengeance is that such an evil enemy, empowered by the Apocryphal Curse, will be the one to eventually bring down Hunger, resulting in enormous amounts of suffering for increasingly large numbers of people as Hunger grows in might and scope of action. In fact, given that Vengeance almost always results in Hunger's death, this scenario is extremely likely. Vengeance votes best hope that it is a foe similar to the Maiden, rather then similar to Dien, that defeats Hunger in the end.

 

[GenericName]

and only after badassery et al was included.

Freedom has not been explicitly stated as being impossible to reach HCB, and it has even been implied by R' a few times thay not dealing with Apo-Chan is in itself a huge buff, one that could well outweigh the benefits of Progression. Progression and Hunger's choices thus far have been more power more power more power. Thus far, he's not actually selected options that would improve the odds of actually winning.

Furthermore, throughout the quest there have been options which are obviously better than the other, or being obvious trap options yet seeing many supporters. The Tower of Earth comes to mind.

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At this point I'm not sure if you're being purposefully misleading or if you just don't understand the scale of what the lathe of heaven actually does. For one, Hunger scales through conflict. Apocryphal is both a blessing and a curse in that it provides us an ever scaling stream of enemies that are just within our power to beat. Vengeance is an assurance that should we survive, we will reach the heights of power necessary to make true change.

Freedom is assuredly better for survival. But I'm terms of scaling it falls flat in every conceivable way. R said at one point that HCBs are forged by fighting and winning and endless number of ever scaling battles, each more difficult than the other. You will not be fighting that with Freedom, and if we choose to seek that type of thing out, what difference is that from Vengeance?

You can't genuinely tell me you think under any circumstances Freedom is better for scaling, especially for Hunger who grows stronger with every victory. Especially when Freedom loses the Lathe of Heaven, capping certain powers and crippling his progression speed in comparison.

It's fine to argue that Hunger would be happier with Freedom. Like I've said, there are very clear pros and cons to each option. But to stick to your guns that Freedom is anywhere in the same ballpark at Vengeance for scaling is disingenuous. Especially if you're implying we may reach HCB with it.

 

[Shard]

At this point I'm not sure if you're being purposefully misleading or if you just don't understand the scale of what the lathe of heaven actually does. For one, Hunger scales through conflict. Apocryphal is both a blessing and a curse in that it provides us an ever scaling stream of enemies that are just within our power to beat. Vengeance is an assurance that should we survive, we will reach the heights of power necessary to make true change.

Freedom is assuredly better for survival. But I'm terms of scaling it falls flat in every conceivable way. R said at one point that HCBs are forged by fighting and winning and endless number of ever scaling battles, each more difficult than the other. You will not be fighting that with Freedom, and if we choose to seek that type of thing out, what difference is that from Vengeance?

You can't genuinely tell me you think under any circumstances Freedom is better for scaling, especially for Hunger who grows stronger with every victory. Especially when Freedom loses the Lathe of Heaven, capping certain powers and crippling his progression speed in comparison.

It's fine to argue that Hunger would be happier with Freedom. Like I've said, there are very clear pros and cons to each option. But to stick to your guns that Freedom is anywhere in the same ballpark at Vengeance for scaling is disingenuous. Especially if you're implying we may reach HCB with it.

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Yet Rihaku implied otherwise in regards to HCB potential (R has noted that no Apo = Better Build, for example) and has not explicitly repudiated the possibility. In fact, with the Imperial Praxis there's nothing stopping Hunger from potentially reaching the vaunted heights of HCB just with that alone. We know it's perfectly possible.

(Hell, the Forebear hit HCB with 'just' the Royal Praxis and no Progression, so it's clearly doable.)

As for scaling, Hunger again has a shit strategy for actually winning/getting to HCB for the Vengeance route. He's just growing as fast as he can without bothering to consider his iterated survival odds, which are why his odds of hitting HCB are so bad. Our decision-making through this quest has shaped Hunger into a being basically incapable of pursuing a strategy with an actual realistic chance of winning. He who dares, wins, up until that one time when you don't win.

(The Forebear had a build that basically eliminated risk. Hunger has the opposite.)

 

[WHISPER]

Vengeance definitely will cause suffering, infact it will cause so much suffering that infinite people will be effected by it.

And if it succeeds it's specific goal (which is not killing the hidden ones by the way) of freeing the Accursed of a whole curse than that will help in making the ultimate happy end possible by one step.

That's just the scale we are at in this verse, where infinite people suffering can somehow have an outcome of even more people potentially being happy and safe forever in the future.

What can you expect when there are literally levels of omnipotence at play alla suggsverse lol.

 

[GenericName]

Yet Rihaku implied otherwise in regards to HCB potential (R has noted that no Apo = Better Build, for example) and has not explicitly repudiated the possibility. In fact, with the Imperial Praxis there's nothing stopping Hunger from potentially reaching the vaunted heights of HCB just with that alone. We know it's perfectly possible.

(Hell, the Forebear hit HCB with 'just' the Royal Praxis and no Progression, so it's clearly doable.)

As for scaling, Hunger again has a shit strategy for actually winning/getting to HCB for the Vengeance route. He's just growing as fast as he can without bothering to consider his iterated survival odds, which are why his odds of hitting HCB are so bad. Our decision-making through this quest has shaped Hunger into a being basically incapable of pursuing a strategy with an actual realistic chance of winning. He who dares, wins, up until that one time when you don't win.

(The Forebear had a build that basically eliminated risk. Hunger has the opposite.)

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I don't think you fully understand what HCBs entail. The chance of ANYONE hitting HCB is so infinitely small it might as well be impossible. Vengeance Hunger has DRASTICALLY higher chances than pretty much any other cursebearer. Like at this point I can't even really argue the point anymore because you're ignoring every statement we've ever gotten about how arduous it is to reach that vaunted level.

 

[WHISPER]

I mean the Forebear becoming that strong by himself is like his "claim to fame" besides being Tyranny itself, I guess.

His chance probely made 1% or even 0.50% look like a sure win by comparison.

 

[Box Lunch]

Such an absolute denial of others' agency! Accepting that position would be much more tyrannical than anything Hunger's done in the quest. But people do in fact have children and consider their actions morally relevant, despite the fact that the kids' existence is a product of their decisions. How to assign blame for Apocryphal actions is an interesting question, however. Aobaru's stance was understandable in many respects.

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It's hypocritical to complain that others put you in a situation you don't like, when you signed up for that in the first place. The malicious subversion of your intent which defines the grievance is invalid. That doesn't make having it a grand moral failing, it makes it morally meaningless. Thus, it fails to support your argument. That she has made us feel bad by giving us an out, does not make that out any less viable or desirable.

 

[Orm Embar]

It's hypocritical to complain that others put you in a situation you don't like, when you signed up for that in the first place. The malicious subversion of your intent which defines the grievance is invalid. That doesn't make having it a grand moral failing, it makes it morally meaningless. Thus, it fails to support your argument. That she has made us feel bad by giving us an out, does not make that out any less viable or desirable.

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The notion that Hunger can't validly object to the actions of his Crowning Curse because he elected to bear it is frankly bizarre. It would foreclose whole realms of interesting character interactions. Is mitigation itself supposed to be immoral? No 'subversion of intent' is necessary for a grievance to exist either, at least to my mind. Competing interests produce enough of them as-is.

The antagonists influenced or created by the Apocryphal Curse can and must be viewed as individuals, accountable for their actions despite mitigating circumstances. Treating them as nothing but its puppets denies them all agency, leading to madness - and worse, suboptimal decision-making.

 

[WHISPER]

I mean if you want to blame people than you can also blame the Accursed in the first place for even giving Hunger the option of becoming a Cursebearer or to offer any option besides freedom in the beginning.

To be clear I don't blame him for doing that or anything just saying.

 

[Wolfy]

For me, another important thing is that Vengeance keeps the Apo. Apo is a zero sum game - if Hunger is not suffering under it, it goes back to Accursed and then other Cursebearers so they can suffer it instead. It is not hyperbolic to say that Hunger among all the CBs is one of the best, if not the best, CB when it comes to striving under the Apo curse. Not only that, but as we grow in power, so does the amount of Apo we can take on, thus freeing more of the universe of its influence.

I said it before, but given how powerful dangerous Apo is, having another HCB taking on Apo is arguably even more valuable to Accursed than full mitigation of Tyrant. Or at least it is pretty fucking good. It is yet another thing to strive for. And if we fail, we can at least ensure that we mitigated and withstood as much of the Curse as we could before it flies back to Accursed.

In comparison Freedom just shrugs away that responsibility to someone else so Hunger can chillax. I will be charitable and call it quite irresponsible.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

It kind of seems like this is a reiteration of the choice that started the quest. Do you think the world would be in a better state at this stage if Hunger hadn't chosen Vengeance then?

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Now that's an interesting question. Probably not with Dead But Dreaming, unless we went really hard on the Mental Stability. With Forsaken Mask, though? Quite possibly. We'd probably have a Procyon/Fervenweirr hybrid, maybe copilot it with Catherine. The Foremost Shards would probably have been endgame bosses, but they shouldn't have been quite as catastrophic without the Apocryphal backing Dien. The entire Astral Realm probably wouldn't have been only a small fraction of the collateral damage.

 

[WHISPER]

I have been thinking about potential next quests again just for fun.

I'll think one where the characters are like physically base line humans... or maybe at best comic book humans but with really strong hax powers would be really cool.

Kind of like Jojo I guess.

>looks at Wonder of U vs Goku vs battles discussion over at Sp.

 

[Wolfy]

The Terrascape was sort of that, with mage mind moving way too fast for its body to follow, so they compensated in various ways. Foxglove used wood nanobots to move around quickly, teleport girl teleported around, green lantern girl used her constructs to move around, Coldbriar turned himself into dimensional mist, while some characters such as Imperia or Arthur did manage to cheat their way to relevant enough speed.

 

[WHISPER]

That sounds interesting but I kind of got scared of from Terrascape by hearing about the "simping" and loss of agency, basically the Imperia stuff...I think.

Maybe it wasn't her and I mean another character.

 

[ImperatorV]

That sounds interesting but I kind of got scared of from Terrascape by hearing about the "simping" and loss of agency, basically the Imperia stuff...I think.

Maybe it wasn't her and I mean another character.

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Not sure if "simping" and "loss of agency" are the correct words, or if it's a nickname for a faction some people disliked. Sort of like how I label the gamblers in this thread as "dying gang", which is pithy but usually not what they're actually trying to do. I think a chunk of them were present for early Rihaku quests where the protagonists took some extremely high-risk high-reward options and it paid off big-time, and they're chasing the high of that. The "Red Option" of ancient lore and what not.

I wasn't present for Terrascape, but from what I understand Imperia was popular with some parts of the thread but wildly unpopular with others. The options for following her goals often had great rewards so she won a lot, and also some of the thread was very antsy about doing anything that could be interpreted as a betrayal of her. This combined with how down bad the protagonist was for her created an impression of being submissive... Which was kinda true, but I don't think that the protagonist being in a subordinate role makes the story worse. There's many character achetypes that aren't leaders that I find interesting to read about.

Anyway, Terrascape has some very fun magic even if you're not a fan of Imperia ruling things, so I'd still recommend it.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

What little I read of Terrascape was interesting, but I quit in response to Arthur going "actually it was Totally My Fault that Enoch killed three cities around me, because I kept applying to his school". Which was like the third post.

 

[ImperatorV]

What little I read of Terrascape was interesting, but I quit in response to Arthur going "actually it was Totally My Fault that Enoch killed three cities around me, because I kept applying to his school". Which was like the third post.

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Arthur had some Issues yeah. Survivor's guilt is a real thing, but it's an irrational one and not pleasant to read about. Versimilitude does not always make for better stories ect.

 

[WHISPER]

This combined with how down bad the protagonist was for her

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This is sadly already enough for me to definitely not want to read it.

That's just my preference but I like protagonists who aren't really focused on love or who have some more unique views on it like Rainhard Heydrich from Shinza Bansho who loves everything and who sees love as destruction.

So the protagonist being really down bad isn't at all to my tastes.

Tho this isn't necessary something that can't have exceptions from quest to quest.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

Arthur had some Issues yeah. Survivor's guilt is a real thing, but it's an irrational one and not pleasant to read about. Versimilitude does not always make for better stories ect.

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I don't think the way it manifested was actually very verisimilitudinous? Enoch was right there. I could see Arthur having a bit of a breakdown over mistakes made, blaming himself as well as Enoch, but the difference between Will 4 and Will 5 shouldn't be that dramatic, surely.

This is sadly already enough for me to definitely not want to read it.

That's just my preference but I like protagonists who aren't really focused on love or who have some more unique views on it like Rainhard Heydrich from Shinza Bansho who loves everything and who sees love as destruction.

So the protagonist being really down bad isn't at all to my tastes.

Tho this isn't necessary something that can't have exceptions from quest to quest.

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What are your opinions on Girl Genius?

 

[WHISPER]

What are your opinions on Girl Genius?

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Never read it, hadn't heard about it before I used sites like Sb and SV.

So I guess not much, the art is pretty eye catching I suppose and it looks like steampunk and science.

 

[Wolfy]

That sounds interesting but I kind of got scared of from Terrascape by hearing about the "simping" and loss of agency, basically the Imperia stuff...I think.

Maybe it wasn't her and I mean another character.

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"Simping" is a wrong for two reasons - first because simp wasn't a thing back then and second because Imperia can't be considered mediocre by any stretch of imagination. Being superior to everyone else is sort of her thing. White knight would be more correct word to use.

Anyway, this might come as a shock, but current state of Rihaku quests is a tranquil heaven compared to good old days of people going at each other. Things were a lot more heated back then, and Imperia kept on winning. Strategist enjoyers, Caroline simps and Coldbriar stans alike were mercilessly crushed under Imperia's dainty feet as her options were better. This created a great deal of resentment towards the character, salt if you will, so she is getting a great deal of negative portrayal that is just not true.

While there is love between the two, the main part of relationship between the two is that of a lord and their retainer. Arthur is lost and doesn't know what he should do, so Imperia's perfect presence serves as calm port in the shitstorm that was his life, as he can rest assured that she will do the right thing. This unconditional trust weights heavily of her, as she strives to proves herself worthy of it.

The best example of this, and the one that got many people extremely salty, is an event where Arthur got his hand of resurrection medicine. In that vote two hotly debated options were the ones pushed by Strategist(literally Satan inside Arthur's head, pretty fun guy), which was to have Arthur use medicine to ress his parents, and the one where he gives medicine to Imperia so she can use it as she sees fit, because Imperia knows best. Later ended up winning, in large part because ress parents plan was extremely awkward, and because Imperia option had great power gain. Arthur presented Imperia the medicine, Imperia understood the implications and thanked Arthur for trusting her, Arthur apologized for putting even more burden on her shoulder, but then said that he believes that she can carry that burden, and that he will help her as much as he can as her knight and so on.

Pretty cute. But yeah people got super upset that "just listen to the smartest, most knowledgeable and most compassionate character in the room" was oftentimes just the best way to deal with any given situation.

 

[ImperatorV]

But yeah people got super upset that "just listen to the smartest, most knowledgeable and most compassionate character in the room" was oftentimes just the best way to deal with any given situation.

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I wonder if this exact philosophy could apply to the current vote at all. Like, say, if Hunger had a person he owes a lot to, that has been proven to be both brilliant and compassionate, who is directly advising Hunger to take a certain option...

 

[WHISPER]

"Simping" is a wrong for two reasons - first because simp wasn't a thing back then and second because Imperia can't be considered mediocre by any stretch of imagination. Being superior to everyone else is sort of her thing. White knight would be more correct word to use.

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Are you saying that Imperia is so good at everything that nobody can't simp for her?

Because simping has nothing to do with if the girl (or boy) is attractive or above average, it's simping either way (if simping is happening that is)

 

[ImperatorV]

Are you saying that Imperia is so good at everything that nobody can't simp for her?

Because simping has nothing to do with if the girl (or boy) is attraktiv or above average, it's simping either way (if simping is happening that is)

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"Simping" is an extremely new term with a very vague definition. Not helped by its widespread adoption by the more disreputable parts of gamer culture. It can mean anything from "only the most egregious treatment, practically worship of a person you're attracted to" to "you were respectfully complimentary to a girl/boy". You're going to have to give us a clearer definition here if you want us to tell you whether simping is happening.