A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
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our other magic being... the Empyrean Signs, Rank, and the Praxis? Well, making an incremental improvement in Empyrean is exponentially difficult, making a single step on the path of Praxis is 'the hardest thing you have ever done', and rank isn't something we can really train. As long as grace creation can be done while recovering from the exertion of Praxis training and doesn't require Hunger to run around so fast the Realm of Evening can't dump platinum into his cloak, it'll give us some benefits relative to not having it.
Summoning 2 pick fights will strengthen us faster than dedicating time to Grace creation due to the ring Hunger.
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It has been strongly implied that Pillars use is not as trivial as 'summon a 2-pick fight, kill it.'. Or we could multitask, do fights with a handicap of 'only using graces', thereby progressing graces and (since pick count is significantly influenced by fight difficulty) still potentially getting picks at around the same speed?
It has not, just because it can be improved does not mean that the capabilities described by the blurb require advancements to unlock.
But why would we dedicate picks to Graces rather than Accretion? Accretion is a more potent system even without TSH and we have TSH for it.
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that's what i thought at first but the sense I've gotten from reading things in the thread thereafter is the opposite. hopefully the things in the blurb are easily available by default, but I'm nowhere near sure of that.
to the second bit, It's possible for Hunger to learn things without using picks (like that time right after he learned edeldross where he trained edeldross, which would've had an 80% chance of successfully making a pseudo-grace fairly quickly), and like I said, we can't really train accretion.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Legitimately Debatable.
Hunger gives us a 1000% buff in high stakes situations compared to presumably a progression class cursebearer baseline. We used to have roughly mortal tier learning speed outside high stakes situations before we went big on cognition enhancement. We are presumably better now given our current intelligence/wisdom/wits combined with Edeldross buffs.
A Simple Transaction I Original
A quest about a simple transaction and the consequences that follow.
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A Simple Transaction I Original
The Furthermost Reaches "Hm? Asking my opinion now? Consultations aren't free, you know," Gisena teased. He scoffed. "Riding on my back isn't free either." "Are you saying you didn't enjoy that?" She giggled. "Well, I think it's a wonderful creation! I'd love to study it. But my realm didn't...
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Here's where I'm getting the 1000 percent from.
A Simple Transaction I Original
It's much rarer compared to Cultivation stage boosts as well. ++Progression is far more powerful than you seem to think! For example, what if Hunger gave one hundred times the Experience rather than a mere ten times? Are the super buffs better than ++All Stats, ++Progression or a flat Rank...
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A Simple Transaction I Original
Grinding mooks is inherently a sign of fear, and not that useful for you anyway - with Hunger and Forebear's Blade + thread participation XP multiplier, you're getting between 15x and 27x the base Experience of each monster you kill, so you very quickly outlevel the point where a monster of a...
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Zampano
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I am confident that there will be plenty of opulence available by default. However, the more specialized uses that we're aiming for are not guaranteed to be available.
I am predicting that there will be Arete Cost + Chance of failure for each of the following, moving from highest cost to lowest:
1. Huntress Moon targets (Most Expensive)
2. fights that will provide specific abilities,
3. fights of a specific difficulty,
4. reagents with specific properties
5. fights that provide XP of any kind (Least Expensive)
I'm not sure what else we would need from the RoE. The biggest value imo is time. If Artemisinin applied to our currently active Hunger Sated condition, we should have 60 - 16 - 21 = 23 days of freedom from the Decimator's Affliction once we leave the RoE. That is plenty of time to go on another hunt, so we do not need to use up any of the Realm's finite Huntress Moon generation.
That leaves us with 3 weeks for three goals:
1. Mental Stability
2. Relationship Management
3. Long-Term Scaling
Goal #1 & 2 both involve teaching Hunger to Chill. Spa-days, fishing for non-monstrous fish, food porn, maybe playing some board games with the Fam. We have earned our slice of life Beach filler episode!
Goal #3 is best served if we can farm picks from monsters, but that isn't actually required. This time would be equally well spent generating Praxis picks, or Graces, or communing with Verschlengorge...
Basically, even if there are restrictions (& Arete costs) on the Realm of Evening, I'm confident that even a plan intended to SAVE arete would still generate a lot of value.
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I disagree with that framing- Arete Cost, probably, but I don't think failure chance; Rihaku said generating things can take 'some trial and error', so I think once you accomplish a goal it would be reliably accessible- a cost to learn how to make the realm do something, but not per-use.
Best case scenario - get something similar to the previous praxis training option - generate [n]d3 Praxis points. As currently we are really low on Arete (I would guess current Arete < = 3 ) generating Praxis points is the best solution. Other than that we don't have a way to get some significant boost. Probably Stranglethorn if we get 4 1-pick fights but generating Praxis points should be our priority to get some scaling into play.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
So, summing up my thesis.
We used to have below average mortal tier learning skills before we got smarter when the Ring of Hunger isn't in play(No high stakes situation). Sufficient Cognitive boosts mitigate the penalties to learning speed as illustrated by the Linear Halo Blurb.
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We are notably smarter now. Combine that with Edeldross Adept which in the best case scenario multiplicatively doubles our Grace Creation speed with Philosopher's Wreath leading to a 7680% Grace Creation speed buff before Magnitude training. For comparison, Ruling Ring is a broad spectrum 10000% percent progression buff from progression class cursebearer baseline. With magnitude training we may be able to exceed 10000% and make ourselves even smarter then we currently are, mitigating the training malus further.
So for Grace creation purposes, would not be creating graces as a below average mortal, but as a relatively intelligent non-progression cursebearer superhuman benefiting from a Ruling Ring tier potential boost. How that compares to our progression class cursebearer self with just a 1000% buff to learning speed in high stakes situations, I have no idea. Hence why I call Grace creation with Philosopher's Wreath vs 2-pick fights legitimately debateable due to the ring of Hunger.
We used to have below average mortal tier learning skills before we got smarter when the Ring of Hunger isn't in play(No high stakes situation). Sufficient Cognitive boosts mitigate the penalties to learning speed as illustrated by the Linear Halo Blurb.
A Simple Transaction I Original
The Ritual Grounds A new day, a new jaunt into the Temple. This time he was taking Gisena with him, as the strength and speed he’d absorbed from the gargantuan wurm would better allow him to protect her against most Temple denizens. Dawn had the sun casting ochre fingers across the...
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We are notably smarter now. Combine that with Edeldross Adept which in the best case scenario multiplicatively doubles our Grace Creation speed with Philosopher's Wreath leading to a 7680% Grace Creation speed buff before Magnitude training. For comparison, Ruling Ring is a broad spectrum 10000% percent progression buff from progression class cursebearer baseline. With magnitude training we may be able to exceed 10000% and make ourselves even smarter then we currently are, mitigating the training malus further.
So for Grace creation purposes, would not be creating graces as a below average mortal, but as a relatively intelligent non-progression cursebearer superhuman benefiting from a Ruling Ring tier potential boost. How that compares to our progression class cursebearer self with just a 1000% buff to learning speed in high stakes situations, I have no idea. Hence why I call Grace creation with Philosopher's Wreath vs 2-pick fights legitimately debateable due to the ring of Hunger.
Zampano
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Hunger is on a time limit. If the process of trial and error takes too long, that carries opportunity costs for other uses of the Realm. Depending on how many updates Rihaku wants to spend here, it's easy to imagine that we have a fixed number of actions to invest in various goals. E.g:
During Week 1 you have 3 Realm of Evening Picks. Incomplete tasks will be resumed during Week 2:
[] Eat some Peaches - 1 pick
[] Fight some zombies for Echoes - 1 Pick
[] Learn a Grace with Gisena - 2 Picks
[] Generate a Huntress Moon target - 4 picks
Just wanted to chime in to say that my opinion is almost exactly the opposite here. Graces are more potent in achieving their specific (utility) task than Accretion will ever be. Our Rank is high, but unfocused. It mostly allows Hunger to do things faster & better, rather than differently.
I agree that Praxis picks are really high value right now. Hopefully we can double up, with Hunger studying the blade & Gisena designing us at least one Grace during her downtime.
One of the most dramatic benefits of Crimson Flare is that it improves our allies' ability to contribute to Hunger's growth during time-skips. I really hope that the Pillars timeskip is long enough to benefit from their boosted Rank+Stats.
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The High Elementalist teen who is good with the sword defeats Hunger and tells him thet for a beginner he is not bad. After Hunger reveals that he has trained for more than eleven years the boy will wince and say that Hunger is talentless hack and has no future as swordsman and should retire as a YA novel cover model.
Zampano
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Activate Silver of Evening for a perfect defense:
"NO U!"
...then blast the twerp with Deathly Star
If Gisena does not create even a single Grace I would consider her a complete failiure. I gave up on my dream - KoW enhanced RoB so we can prop up the Ring and dunk on Armaments with Shrouds and also boost the teenager scrubs to something resembling a competent team.
Look at your sister Adorie, kids, why can't you be like her - Rank 10 and supports her old man with his Praxis training.
All advancements we get from our Panoply are Accretion, Rank is not the only thing that's a part of accretion that is improved with picks.
Hunger's learning speed is boosted when in high stakes situations and penalised for training, improving base learning speed isn't going to change that.
I don't think graces are going to allow us to hold an entire universe hostage like the Crimson Flare upgrade does.
Tyrant_Rayne
Probably Not Evil… Maybe
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6 months out of character and about 2 months in character.
Zampano
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We have a history, detective. There are some hurt feelings from the bad old days in An Army Made, but there have been good times too. Remember fighting together for 3d3+3 Praxis picks at a cost of 0A? That was great.
Anyway, KoW enhanced RoB is an admirable dream. A dream that could be purchased with currency...
Give me three traditional vote markers (no veto) and I'll flip my vote to KoW now and also consider myself marker-activated to vote for RoB at the next Praxis opportunity.
The plus 3 picks were ordinary picks IIRC. Also speaking of Praxis TKSA's blurb said it would have allowed us to cut through spiritual attacks, something that would have been incredibly helpful against Augustine.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
The question is at what level of advancement speed boosts does a non-cursebearer superhuman equal or surpass an equivalently intelligent progression class cursebearer (Whatever number that is) with a 1000% learning speed buff for high stakes learning on top of that?
We don't know.
Like... from a magnitude training standpoint, our Edeldross intelligence multiplier is 1.6, a 60% buff. With 24 intelligence, we would need to reach 108-109 percent buff(the exact number is a decimal) to match Ruling Ring's progression buff for Grace Creation with Philosopher's Wreath.
Hunger Started out with a 20% Edeldross stats Buff. The 2 pick training session where he got Edeldross Adept gave him an additional 10%. Silver of Evening doubled that to 60% percent and doubled the magnitude of future Edeldross enhancements. How much magnitude training with a 3840% Advancement speed buff(edit: before recursive improvement begins) do we need to get an additional 48 percent Edeldross enhancement?
Then we've got stuff like Lunar Coronet if that somehow made a reappearance. That's a 40 percent Edeldross buff right there, that raises our intelligence to 25 if acquired after PW. A 100 percent buff. Exactly equivalent to the Ruling Ring. And we might have Exalted Spirit right now because of the missing pick.
As for holding an entire universe hostage with Graces, 75% Progression Cursebearer Growth Gisena might be able to pull that off eventually.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Yeah. We exploited it relentlessly and took a boatload of stupid risks to grow as fast as we did.