Can you people start voting 6th Sign already.
"I keep repeating my argument to other people, why do they keep repeating their argument to me?!"
They are not making arguments, because I would address those. They just don't read and post arguments I've addressed in my opening analysis, thus I am forced to repeat arguments until they accidently read them, understand them, and then actually make a fucking rebuttal.

Like
Sacrificing rank for signs is dumb because there's no guarantee the signs will help .
Oh wow it's like the very first post I've made on this topic explained very clearly how we are not taking Sign because it's "guaranteed", but because it's a good risk to take in our situation.

So, my endlessly smart friend, do enlighten me how am I supposed to respond to posts that don't read my arguments, post shit already touched upon in my arguments without repeating said arguments? How do you make people read?
 
Man, Assault Halo cutting all magic in half and multiplying our power of ruin sure would've been neat. Even neater would be the FDS advancements, which could've really saved us here.
 
Okay, yes, maybe if we had picked different tools in the past we would be more prepared for this fight. But with how the Apocryphal Curse works, it's totally possible that it would throw an opponent at us that fucked over whatever build that was as well. Save the speculating about could-have-beens for when we inevitably lose a fight badly. Apocryphal finds a hole to hurt Hunger no matter what, and the only thing to do about that is to diagnose and examine failures right when they happen, because any alt-timelines which are further divergent than that vary too much for us to say.
 
I mean, neither Ringlord* nor Assault Halo would change much in this particular situation. Something like Aobaru's EFB would, but we both didn't know about OaF II back then and we choose not to get it for completely reasonable rationale of saving for our core upgrades - it's just that we got ganked before getting to them.

*well, with our Social Rank at 10.5 maybe convincing Procyon to fuck off might be a possibility, although that doesn't sounds like something that would actually happen
 
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Okay, yes, maybe if we had picked different tools in the past we would be more prepared for this fight. But with how the Apocryphal Curse works, it's totally possible that it would throw an opponent at us that fucked over whatever build that was as well. Save the speculating about could-have-beens for when we inevitably lose a fight badly. Apocryphal finds a hole to hurt Hunger no matter what, and the only thing to do about that is to diagnose and examine failures right when they happen, because any alt-timelines which are further divergent than that vary too much for us to say.

Overall, I don't actually think the wheels have really come off our build when we think about this fight, either offensively or defensively. Neither Procyon nor Fervenweirr is a uniquely bad matchup, imo. Like, this is pretty much a direct confrontation between the Armament's Power and Hunger's Power. We have Rank equalization techniques, we have offensive measures that are direct (Deathly Star) and indirect (high tier Bloodcasting) and defensive measures that are sure to be relevant (but probably not inviolable) unless the Shroud is a hard-counter.

The only features of this proc that are uniquely bad for us are the timing (before Pillars), the battlefield (Nilfel just got a major investment of our energy) and the Armament's stats. Otherwise it's a lot like Augustine-take 2. Hell, even the unfortunate timing on Pillars allows us to fight without concern for long-term complications to Hunger, because we'll have 3 weeks to lick our wounds and relax/ recover before returning to the Voyaging Realm.

Our opponent has the following characteristics:
  • Rank 10 Astral Pressure
  • The ability to deploy a Shroud
  • Physical stats corresponding to the size of a fuckhuge Robot
    • These most likely far exceed Hunger's own parameters
  • A fully loaded & maintained suite of specialized Sci-Fi weapons
  • Unique attacks related to the Plenary Brand or Doom of Lunacy
  • Support troops with technology and weapons superior to the Legions of Nilfel
  • Support Mages of unknown ability
  • An advantageous set of Rules of Engagement
    • They don't have to care about collateral damage

By contrast, Hunger has the following loadout:
Offensively:
  • We have high enough rank to contend directly with the Armament (outside the Shroud, which remains a total mystery box afaik).
    • We have +ISH on that Rank
  • We have +ISH on the reality warping effect of the Ring of Blood
  • We have +ISH on an attack that was described like this:
    She was maimed horribly, but now came her retaliation, a blast of transcendental magic from runes freshly - and brutally - carved into her own flesh, raggedly infused with blood and marrow. Augustine marshaled such force as to reduce entire worlds to ash, a pantheon-slaying strike of truly foremost malice.
    The obverse reflection of Augustine's supreme offense, absorbed and now reflected by the Cloak of Sky. This is an onslaught of sheer destroying force that strikes across every level of the physical and conceptual gradient, targeting Health as well as the target's Attributes, both fundamental and emergent. Virtually no defense short of perfection absolute can shield against all the vectors by which this strikes. Cancel the apocalypse by marshaling power greater still.
    • Note: The Walls of Myth are described as having a defensive parameter above mere Astral pressure (Rank). The Signs of the Empyrean seem to draw from the same Well of Myth. Pitting our existing Signs against Pressure might be a really good matchup.
  • We have +ISH on the Power of Ruin, multiplied elevenfold thanks to the effects of Whiteout
  • We have +ISH on both Artful Thorn and Refinement of Quickness, which can be used more often thanks to Adorie's bloodline.
  • We have +ISH on physical parameters thanks to Aobaru's True Vigorflame
  • We have +ISH on various non-Praxis sword techniques like the fell handed stroke & bladewinds (which might've been subsumed by Cut Through, tbh)
    • This might actually be ++ISH, depending on how you read the blurb for Cut Through
  • We have +ISH on the domains from the Tears of Winter,
    • Their dominion includes: ice, cold, rulership, intellect, calculation, beauty, finesse, quickness, overwhelming power, the season of Winter, grandeur, truth, and purity.
Defensively:
  • We have +ISH on a perfect defense from Silver of Evening
  • We have +ISH on the Armor of Midnight, which by default grants infinite PROT and universe-scale magic resistance
    • Note: The Walls of Myth are described as having a defensive parameter above mere Astral pressure (Rank). The Signs of the Empyrean seem to draw from the same Well of Myth. Pitting our existing Signs against Pressure might be a really good matchup.
  • We have +ISH on the power of Ruin against incoming attacks
  • We have +ISH on the power of Holy Shit, which guarantees intimidation against non-Armament enemies
  • We have +ISH on Edeldross infusion
  • We have +ISH on Ring of Blood regenerative abilities
    • Note: Many of the Ring abilities convert one stat into another; I'm not sure how to interpret the effects of +0.2 ISH for such blurbs as Vigor Incarnate.
  • We have +ISH on the protection for our allies from Undying Vanguard
  • We have +ISH on Hunger's memetic appeal via Triumphal Gleam
    • This will let us do PR damage control if/when we walk away from the fight with the armament having saved Nilfel a second time within a month
  • We have +ISH on the rank-equalizing effects of Hero-Defeating Stance + Bastion of Myth.
    • The effect of being at a minor disadvantage from Rank disparity (10 vs 9.7) should be almost completely mitigated

With all of our abilities, this is still a 5-pick fight. Hunger has not received the benefits of Fisher King (which we took because we thought we didn't need immediate power against Augustine). Hunger has not received the benefits of Pillars of Creation (which we got because we killed Augustine). That's 5 picks invested into potential without any payoff yet. Hunger has not received the benefits of Birdsie's contribution to the Digital Waterfall.

It would be utterly tragic to leave all this potential completely unrealized. A vote for [ ] Call Up is a vote to leverage Hunger's Progression into a semblance of safety. After hitting you with the wall of text above, I just want you to consider the following three reasons to vote for [ ] Call Up:
  1. Progression is one of Hunger's abilities. That means that OaF II granted at least +0.1 ISH to the power of Progression itself. Hunger is a Progression Type whose growth curve just got even faster. Grinding a pick from a Chromatic Beast is the only option we have that uses Hunger's strongest ability against Procyon.
  2. The Republic has a tactical advantage from the rules of engagement, but Hunger has a strategic advantage from positioning and fortification. The Walls of Myth are noted to have parameters higher than mere pressure. Call Up is an effective way of turning that strategic advantage into power.
  3. There is more than 30 Arete in the bank right now. Call Up gives us the chance to turn that into power without needing a GM rescue like being allowed to go into Pick Debt for a Praxis technique.
    • (Can you imagine fighting Procyon while in Pick debt??)

If I manage to write any more before the update drops, I'd like to try proposing some tactics for meeting the Arcanist. I'll also discuss some of the ways that our companions might be able to contribute in each outcome (Hold the Line or Call Up.)

...​
I mean, neither Ringlord* nor Assault Halo would change much in this particular situation. Something like Aobaru's EFB would, but we both didn't know about OaF II back then and we choose not to get it for completely reasonable rationale of saving for our core upgrades - it's just that we got ganked before getting to them.

*well, with our Social Rank at 10.5 maybe convincing Procyon to fuck off might be a possibility, although that doesn't sounds like something that would actually happen
The vote that lost us this fight really mattered was when we passed on heartpiercer!!! :V
 
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Procyon is pretty much best case scenario for us as far as Armaments go since we've got immunity to one of his biggest advantages. Imagine fighting a Titan while being able to ignore their Extrusion and Incarnation and you're getting an idea of how good of a matchup this is for us. Things would be very different if we were facing a fully powered Verschlengorge and had to take the power of his Grand Decimation into account.
 
There seems to be an idea that Call Up is a safe choice or something. In fact, it's just a gamble - not dissimilar to getting 6th Sign, actually. We gamble on being capable of finding something relevant in ten to twenty minutes it takes Procyon to punch through Walls of Myth, either an ally or a (hopefully two pick) fight that would lets us translate our unspent Arete into power.

But that might not happen, of course. At the very least, we'd lose defensible position offered by Walls of Myth(which are of vital importance for protecting our allies from aoe) and good deal of our support will get slaughtered, but there's always the danger of Shard awakening and making the situation even more complicated than it already is. What makes this questionable is that chance of running into something is completely unknown, as is the price of failure. With 6th Sign, at least, you can reasonable extrapolate Signs based on previous picks and having to fight with 1 Rank less is easy to conceptualize, making general risk/reward ration easy to contemplate.

Basically, just vote for Advanced Research alright.
 
  • Now, another downside is that we don't know what Signs do, or what costs they have. However, I think that we can extrapolate enough from previous choices to make this choice somewhat informed
  • I don't think that power of 6th Sign is in a question. Deathly Star could blow up a planet, while Armor of Midnight can withstand universe-sundering blows. While I'm not expecting multiverse level stuff, anything superior to Armor of Midnight in pure potency is liable to be the strongest not OaF ability we have. As such, we should just get it
  • There is worry that offered signs won't be applicable to our situation - perhaps they are utility flavored, or they have cost that makes them unusable in current context and so on. However, looking at previous choices informs us that this is unlikely to be case. Most Sign choices had multiple combat relevant signs. Virtually every Noonday sign we've seen so far was easy "just do it" with zero cost. Even utility Signs tends to offer enough combat boost to be relevant etc. Between all of these and fact that we will be offered three picks, chances are that we will end up with something useful
Well...

Evening Sky:
1st Sign: Teleport
2nd Sign: Super gravity resistance thing? Synergy with Hero-Defeating Stance (Passive)
3rd Sign: Summoning
4th Sign: Nuke target
5th Sign: Invincibility

Noonday Sky:
1st Sign: Move Faster
2nd Sign: Majesty-Style Resistance vs Esoterica
3rd Sign: Rechargeable Rank Nukes
4th Sign: Look Awesome (without mindraping everyone)
5th Sign: Copy Attribute of Target

Empyrean Sky:
3rd Sign: Weather Control
4th Sign: Target gets Attributes appropriate for their Rank (does not work on self)
5th Sign: Upgrade a spell to Rank 10 + Qualitative Upgrade

It's actually pretty hard to find any patterns at all. For example:

1st Sign: Transportation
2nd Sign: Resistance/Self-Supremacy
3rd Sign: ????????? - I can try and say that this is 'external effect' but that's so vague as to encompass everything. I could also say that this is 'limited supremacy' and cut on Empyrean Sky on the basis that it obviously has different styling compared to Noon and Evening both.

Alternatively:

Evening Sky: Theme of being 'absolute' - Teleport. Uttermost self. Summoning. Ultimate Attack. Ultimate Defence.
Noonday Sky: Theme of uniformity - Bonus Speed. Anti-Absolute Defences. Rank potions (uhhh). Attribute copying.
Empyrean Sky: Theme of rank - Weather Control. Attribute Balancing to Rank. Spell-Rank Upgrades.

Literally the only thing in common is that the same effect does not show up multiple times. Even that isn't indicative of anything. Like what in the world is this? These are bordeline random!
 
It's not about predicting exact effects(basically, we are fine with whatever as long as it's combat-focused, due to sheer power of 6th), but usability. Based on previous two Signs, we had 5/6 that have reasonable cast time and cost(so from instant to ~15 minutes) and 4/6 that were combat related(with ones that were not still giving some stats and being able to boost combat spells, respectively). We only need 1/3 offered Signs to have combination of those factors in order to get something good.
 
By contrast, Hunger has the following loadout:
Hey man you can add a lot more words.
  • We have +ISH on a Strength
  • We have +ISH on a Agility
  • We have +ISH on a Constituion
  • We have +ISH on a Appearances
  • We have +ISH on a Manipulation
  • We have +ISH on a Stuff
Create template for and you are golden, or just spam everything, because you have +ISH on word padding padding and making unbalanced deals
  • We have +ISH on a [Ability/Atrribute]
 
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@Talace you have marker for the archivist who betrayed the Praxis, force him to vote for something he hates.

-he said, having gotten us into this mess by going FULL MAEG

mhmm, tell me more about my terrible betrayal
Saving up markers for a Fairbright or grabbing RR, sorry!

For what it's worth, I think it's not impossible for us to get a second potential shot at Elixir if we take out the Armament, just due to the sheer heroism of the action.
 
As it stands we are somewhat committed to OaF II/SitS, maybe with FK in between. Getting RR into FK into other stuff was previous plan, but that was before dumping a lot of Arete on angel sis.
 
Ber was able to damage Armament-skin because Verschlengorge was utterly crippled. Letrizia and her Robot had been completely torn apart when we met them. At the time of the fight with Ber, Verschlengorge did not have enough Rank to manifest a Shroud. The blurb in 'Meditations on the Sword' indicates that Versch's Rank was less than Five:

Procyon will have Rank more than double Versch's (on a hyper-exponential scale). Procyon will also have access to its full suite of weapons and Curse-based special attacks. This doesn't even mention the tactical advantage of deploying a shroud...
...I addressed that? My point was that Ber-level power is sufficient to damage the purely physical portions of an Armament, so if our functional rank is higher then Procyon, our power, which is greater then Bers, should be sufficient. Obviously, if our Rank is too low, then Procyon is immune to arbitrarily large quantities of physical force. Procyon has Weapons and stuff, yes, but if our functional rank is higher then his, we can probably use armor of midnight and still be higher, so Procyons attacks, as long as they are not universe-busting And strong enough to kill us 2.46993292e41 times- that's what 1000 Protection +'s would be according to the multiplicative scaling at some point in the past, and I doubt that scaling has gotten worse- can be disregarded from the question. That said, I suppose it is possible that a shroud also makes Procyon's skin physically stronger including against higher-rank opponents?

To put it another way... I'm arguing that we're not lacking for an 'actual method to crack open the shell and slurp up the squishy innards.', because the shells non-rank rigidity is lower then our attack power by far, so if we are presently lacking in the capability, it's either something not yet fully understood like a shroud, or it's Procyon having too much Rank.
 
Procyon explicitly has better stats than we do, meaning that he's already in post-Titanic ish 1.9 region, in addition to his Rank.

Of course, most of our relevant vectors are either durability agnostic or focus less on raw power and more on long term damage accumulation.
 
Procyon explicitly has better stats than we do, meaning that he's already in post-Titanic ish 1.9 region, in addition to his Rank.
...huh. Is this a property unique to Procyon? I assume not, so I guess either Armaments use their Rank as a part of their internal structure somehow so being lower rank makes them Physically weaker, or Ber just had some kind of... super-armorpierce via RPG magic?
 
...I addressed that? My point was that Ber-level power is sufficient to damage the purely physical portions of an Armament, so if our functional rank is higher then Procyon, our power

You're assuming that his physical stats do not change with his level of functionality, which isn't a safe assumption. It's almost certain that being damaged lowers their otherwise transfinite stats along with their Rank and access to their special techniques.
 
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To put it another way... I'm arguing that we're not lacking for an 'actual method to crack open the shell and slurp up the squishy innards.', because the shells non-rank rigidity is lower then our attack power by far, so if we are presently lacking in the capability, it's either something not yet fully understood like a shroud, or it's Procyon having too much Rank.
TLDR: runeblue's post is good


This does not follow from the example of Versch getting beat up by Ber. Versch's core system functionality was heavily degraded, everything from weapons to navigation. Furthermore, he has blood so there is some sort of biological component as well, and living organisms usually have decreases in overall functionality when damaged or injured. These examples of damage to the Armament were reflected in reduced stats, including AGI and Strength. (Proof: During the fight with the Pirates, Versch was reduced to swinging his arms at the small astral beasts coming out of a portal, instead of using unerring robot hand-eye coordination to slap them like annoying mosquitoes.)

Making conclusions about Procyon's offensive or defensive parameters on the basis of a fight between Versch and Ber is woefully premature. Keep in mind that the Sovereignty had an opportunity to restock Versch's ammunition supply, suggesting that bullets (?) and missiles (??) are part of the standard loadout. Even if Hunger and Procyon are at exactly equal Rank, it would be optimistic to use Ber as evidence for the conclusion that Hunger will land a meaningful blow in the face of overwhelming STATS.
 
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And strong enough to kill us 2.46993292e41 times- that's what 1000 Protection +'s would be according to the multiplicative scaling at some point in the past,

As a sidenote, the multiplicative estimation no longer holds true with our increase in physical stats. What I think you're referring to was only for where we were at that point in the story, not in general.

Keep in mind that the Sovereignty had an opportunity to restock Versch's ammunition supply, suggesting that bullets (?) and missiles (??) are part of the standard loadout.

That would've probably been due to modifications to Versch's weapon mounts, much like what he's got going on currently with mythic armour. If Procyon's any indication, the standard loadout is probably more like any and all pieces of strategic weaponry that they can cram onto his frame.
 
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Alright, lets generate some discussion. If given opportunity, which Advancement would you spend Heroic Progression on? Let me do a quick go through our EFBs -

Advancement: Cut Through
Comment: The real OG. Cut Through has proven itself as a staple of our build, between reliable bonus to our melee attacks and access to ever-useful Praxis. Any HP improvement to this Advancement has chance to upgrade our Praxis as a whole, making it a frontrunner candidate.
Priority: High

Advancement: Crimson Flare
Comment: Another Advancement that proved itself useful over and over again is good old Bloodcasting. Hell, even now we can only get Signs because we have it, and it's even combat relevant against Armaments. Just imagine getting more Rank or increasing the number of domains Flare covers! However, I am not sure for how long will Rank be a relevant resource, so prehaps spending our HP on something more likely to scale might be better?
Priority: Medium

Advancement: Silver Of Evening
Comment: Hoo boy, Silver didn't age well, did it? We made no graces, buffs it provides look quite silly when compared to +ish boosts and at least perfect defense sees use. That's not to say that Silver was terrible when we took it, but it aged pretty badly and, unlike Tower, we didn't invest to make it work. Overall, I don't think we'd consider Silver as an EFB in current situations, and as such we shouldn't really consider spending HPs on it
Priority: Low

Advancement: Opalescent Tower
Comment: Whatever one might say about Tower, it's undeniable that Signs proved to be a good way of getting power, and that they are good portion of our current power. And just like with Cut Through, getting chance to upgrade Signs makes this a worthwhile HP investment.
Priority: High

Advancement: Tears of Winter
Comment: Still no Advancements pepehands. Still, Tears could theoretically offer us Advancements in future, so investing into them is a pretty good value. Additionally, it could offer us something like adding more people in Tears buffs, maybe allowing us, Gisena and Adorie to share buffs with one another? That sounds pretty cool, as does another chance to add Time to our domain!
Priority: Medium

Advancement: Once and Future
Comment: The king is here baby. Well, my current assumption is that this line of Advancements is already HPd, so we can't boost them anymore. Same goes for OaF II.
Priority: Not Eligible

Advancement: ADS
Comment: Good old ADS. Right now, I don't see much value in buffing it. However, Ruin could very well be relevant far longer than Rank will, so that alone might make this a worthwhile purchase
Priority: Medium

Advancement: Pillars of Evening
Comment: Man, fucking Pillars. They are so good. Essentially, our entire long term strategy boils down to "Pillars". Needless to say, this makes Pillars insanely valuable, although it does run into same issue of putting value into something that doesn't translate into immediate power.
Priority: Very High

Of course, these are just our EFBs. There's a number of worthwhile Advancements we could consider upgrading(Evening Sky, Thousand Cuts, Second Form, Outer Shadow etc). Additionally, we could consider upgrading something we'd get from defeating Procyon - SitS, being an obvious example, but even stuff such as RR, FK or Elixir could be decent upgrades.

So, what Advancement would you improve? Hard mode: No SitS or Pillars.
 
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