Leaving aside whether they have a secondary objective to plunder the place, why would they believe that and not double-check?
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
If you read the update you'll see the word 'army' never appears, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. But whatever, we'll say any military force containing an Armament is an army.
It doesn't seem like you're actually disagreeing with me. I think fighting back will kill millions and instant surrender will kill thousands at most, and I said as much.
Do you disagree? Do you think that a full-on war against an Armament fighting at full power will be more 'gentle' than surrender? Because I don't.
I compared the Republic kill team to an American kill team because they both had similar objectives (kill 1 person), everyone knows about the Bin Ladin raid, and because both the Republic and America are dominant military powers.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Do you think US kill teams are committing genocides? Because they're not; go look up Obama's drone assassination program, it killed a couple thousand people at most. An actual war would kill millions.
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
Well, the idea is that if they want to double check, they can do it peacefully and with the help of the Nilfellian Legions. All that matters is that they don't consider Nilfel hostile.
Go go reading comprehension
Republic is going to pull some shit and Nilfellians won't take it laying down because they are proud as fuck, which would end up with Republicans killing some Nilfellians which would make later even less likely to just let Republicans roam their lands
Yes. As long as we get a few picks to spend our Arete on, we can engage the Armament without any support from Nilfelian forces, which means they can stay away from the blast zone, hide behind the Walls and engage any conventional forces that try to attack. Meanwhile, if we run away, Republican forces are going to be rapidly blitzing through the entire country house to house searching for Letrizia, which any population wouldn't take lying down, much less proud Nilfellians. There is inevitably going to be resistance and on the scale of Nilfel, that's millions of death.
Why would they trust the Legions at all? And you can't check the proud country you just invaded both peacefully and with speed.
- Location
- Pindorama
Oh, you are completely right that this is our fault thanks to the Apocryphal. That's exactly why we shouldn't run away and expose Niefel's population to something that's our responsibility.
I won't even get into the fact that since we need to conquer both the Voyaging Realm and the Human Sphere, we will likely have to send soldiers to their deaths in much more morally dubious situations.
I'm pretty sure no-one in our party would want to risk Letrizia, even someone like Adorie who just met her; if any invading force tried to kidnap or kill someone inside her borders, she'd defend them vigorously because of who she is. Would you deny that trying to save someone is a righteous cause? It's certainly better than what Niefel's military has been up to lately, that's for sure.
Whether you think it's stupid for soldiers to risk their lives to save a single person, that's just what heroism is. Engaging in cynical calculations of expected value misses its point. It's not about some greatest utility, but about principles; what you aren't willing to give up.
I would be very surprised if the Legions had any sort of conscription occurring. Even if there were, I doubt we would bother chasing after should they not want to fight.
They literally volunteered to defend Niefel's territory from invasion, and that's what's happening right now. Even Fall Back admits that, in fact, they do not want to be invaded, despite the limited aims of the Republic. What is so ghastly about helping Niefel defend itself? It's what they would want to do 100%, the very options say so; it's falling back that's explicitly against their wishes.
Don't nations have a right to self-determination? That the Republic is using force to kill a resident of Niefel completely unilaterally is beyond the pale no matter if it's one person or one thousand.
Niefel isn't exactly a perfect moral agent of course, but saying we are forcing them to die for our own greed is both baffling and disrespectful of the agency they do have. They would in fact like to defend their country and not see it invaded. They would help us fight the Armament willingly even if Adorie wasn't the ruler, and it's not just a matter of national pride; what else would you have soldiers for, if you aren't going to defend your nation?
In brief, Hold the Line is not about Hunger sending millions of Niefelian zerglings to die for his own gain, but literally about helping Niefel defend against an invasion of their own borders, which we know they would prefer. To say this is some sort of moral crime Hunger is committing is highly disingenuous, to say the least.
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Okay sure, I'll read that.
It looks like "Republic is going to pull some shit " is not actually a sure thing, as indicated by the word "if".
Meanwhile let's look at what fighting an Armament is like:
So if we fight we can be absolutely certain that the Armament will be unleashing "tearing stars asunder" level power. That sounds a lot more deadly than a some potential kidnappings!
...
Go read the voting option again, it is very, very clear that everyone is in the blast zone.
And I'm not really sure how to respond to your claim that there will be millions of deaths from house searches. The update says, straight out, that they will only ransack for a couple hours before leaving.
I don't know what science-fiction future manhunts look like but I'm pretty sure that randomly gunning down millions of civilians an hour isn't part of it.
Also, the update doesn't say this but I kinda figure they'll be more interested in finding Versch than Letrezia. And they're not going to be searching private homes for a sky-scraper size mech.
I don't know if it has been brought up before, but even if its not relevant its interesting, as there have been references to older quests and settings.
I noticed that Silver of Evening actually appears in Most High, as the name of the update where we meet The Lily of the Valley, where she was preventing people from entering the mysterious jade mountain, protecting them.
I noticed that Silver of Evening actually appears in Most High, as the name of the update where we meet The Lily of the Valley, where she was preventing people from entering the mysterious jade mountain, protecting them.
You may note that I am not voting for Hold the Line. That would be why I said "with a couple of picks, we will be able to engage it alone" - I want us to find these pick with Call Up.
There would be nothing random about it. Inevitably, some people are going to resist that manhunt, and when they do, Republican forces are not going to gently convince them, they are going to force their way through, Nilfelian dead notwithstanding. And with magic, the places where you can hide a skyscraper become not very obvious. Plus, they are going to be searching for both anyway.
- Location
- Pindorama
To put it even more succinctly, this whole "helping Niefel defend itself against invasion is a horrible moral atrocity" is pretty ???. People seem to fond of comparing this to a real world situation right now, so imagine if any country, even if it had somehow achieved military superiority, decided to go to an American border and just demand they give up a resident by force, and if don't they'll just invade and keep searching until they find them. Like, what? Rejecting is the natural fucking reaction even in a nation not as prideful as the USA or Niefel. Who wants to capitulate their sovereignty like this? Of course they want to fight, and Fall Back makes it clear they would have rather fought. There isn't any mystery to this. Hold the Line does not make us into some horrible tyrant; in fact, Niefel being more grateful to us is a far more likely occurrence. This type of objection is just so ???
It's just a "no u". Honestly, refusal to accept the actual cost of your choice is getting pretty pathetic. The cost of Holding the Line is rolling the dice, the cost of Calling Up is risking making situation even worse and the cost of running away is moral price. Like, just accept it like everyone else does. Spending multiples pages on handful of people trying to delude themselves into thinking that option that is about running away and sacrificing civilians doesn't sacrifice civilians is getting tiresome.
Like, that's what the option does. You take the moral hit for the sake of expediency. If you are not fine with that then don't vote for it. Don't go around try to convince yourself that the price won't happen.
Like, that's what the option does. You take the moral hit for the sake of expediency. If you are not fine with that then don't vote for it. Don't go around try to convince yourself that the price won't happen.
Well to begin with, our Geas task only requires us to conquer the Human Sphere.
I don't actually want Hunger to be the kind of hero you're advocating for here. I don't think saving one person is worthwhile if it kills ten other people. I don't consider this calculation cynical at all. It's the first Simple Transaction and its Implicate Duty all over again, people just throwing their lives away for nothing.
"Don't nations have a right to self-determination?" is a really funny thing to say given that Hunger literally killed the leader of this nation and conquered it a couple days ago.
I'm not being disingenuous, I'm really, really not. You're so in favor of rescuing Niefel and defending Niefel against a foreign invader, when Hunger himself is foreign invader. The army he's protecting is the same one he crushed days ago, they're probably still healing their wounds. And they did try very hard to use their right to self-determination to drive him off, only to fail. Can you see the irony?
You did vote in favor of "Work From Within" and "The Political Way", same as I did, so at least you're not being hypocritical when you say that you're against overthrowing nations. So why not join me again here? We're "exposing Niefel's population to something that's our responsibility" no matter what happens, no matter what option we pick. The difference is that if we stand and fight millions of solders will die and we might still lose. But if we leave, then after a couple hours the Republic will leave as well, or at least their main force will, because our problems come with us.
I agree.
I think Hunger's conquest of Niefel was an atrocity. I think the fact that he achieved military superiority and just demanded they give up by force was wrong. I think it was good of them to reject Hunger, and sad that they capitulated to him. I think the sooner Hunger leaves, the better.
If you're responding to my posts then my argument has always been that civilian deaths will be in the thousands, and military deaths will be in the millions, and that thousands of deaths is to be preferred over millions. My reasons for this are
-The Human Sphere nations are relatively moral and they're likely to be professionals. I wouldn't expect more than a couple dozen massacres.
-They will only have a couple hours before their main force leaves. Like two hours. That's just not much time for killing.
-Actively fighting against an Armament that can tear apart stars and is trying to kill you is, in fact, extremely dangerous. Much more dangerous than solders on an extremely tight timeline going house to house on a manhunt.
Thousands of civilian deaths vs millions of military deaths seems a fair trade, and I consider it the more moral choice.
- Location
- Pindorama
If Republic intervention had any sort of humanitarian reason, I might be convinced to side with them, but they don't so the point is moot. There's nothing ironic about defeating Augustine and being mad about Republic intervention, not when we have gone out of our way to be minimally imperialist. There's nothing ironic in choosing using virtue ethics, really.
Most wars would have cost less if people just surrendered or negotiated, but people don't work that way. The Legions did in fact volunteer to protect Niefel as the risk of their own lives, and simply saying that more people would die in an absolute sense essentially ignores their choice. All of them have decided to incur more responsibility than the average citizen, and they would gladly fight to defend their territory. Is that not a right they have? I agree that I wouldn't let Niefel choose if it was something immoral like invading others, but this is quite the opposite of that.
Yes, thousands of Niefelians will die compared to the possible millions of soldiers, but that's millions who willingly choose to risk their lives versus thousands of complete innocents who didn't; and I'm not convinced the former is more moral due to that. Niefel would in fact like to defend itself, and there's nothing immoral about giving them the chance.
As you know, there's no difference between good and bad things whatsoever. Yes, defending an innocent woman as the exact same moral valence than deposing an imperialist ruler, they are exactly the same. Of course.
By the way, nowhere is it said the Republic will leave after a couple hours. In fact, warcrimes leading into a futile resistance is posed as an explicit risk, completely wasting the lives you supposedly want to preserve anyway. It is certainly the path with the highest chances of victory, but the most moral?
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- Location
- Europe
I'm willing to bet you a veto-less vote marker that Haeliel would turn the Hidden Ones to the cause of heroism with minimal effort (and probably some truck-kun based moral lessons) if she didn't have more pressing problems to deal with.
You dramatically underestimate the power of Progression.
- Location
- Pindorama
By the way, just to really emphasize this point:
Nowhere it says they will merely stay for a few hours, rather the opposite. If you want to Fall Back to preserve the lives of the soldiery, there's a chance they will fight anyway, and then both innocents and the military would die for our sake, instead of one or the other. The one with the best balance of lives preserved to risk is actually Call Up. If we Fall Back, there's a real chance Niefel will bear the costs of our own Apocryphal proc, and I don't want that in any way. It would be the very opposite of the moral path Fall Back voters weirdly claim they are on the side of.
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Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Armament Choices: Character Beats
#2200 Words
The three options in front of us are all very intense. I hope that any of these could be fun to read about. And I think that Hunger has a decent chance of survival with all of them, which is almost as important. Hold the Line gives us a dramatic final showdown to end our time in the Voyaging Realm. Call Up sees us descend into the Arcanist's vault and return with a vestige of the Foremost to repudiate the aggression of their discarded toys. Fall Back is a pivot to the enlightened view necessary for survival to High Cursebearer status. Conditional on success, any of these strikes me as a watershed moment for Hunger's development as a cursebearer. I want to put some enthusiasm on the page for each option. (I admit, some Discourse impacted my thoughts on Fall Back).
First, Hold the Line. This is so much more than a repetition of the fight with the Armament fish, where we dispatched the only recurring villain so far in AST; it is more than a repetition of our defense against the Rotbeastie, where we unlocked the Praxis; it is more than an inversion of the Temple Arc, where Hunger was the monster at the gates: Hold the Line turns every drop of blood and tears and salt, every advancement, every Kaiju fight into Foreshadowing. This option ties a bow on the arc of our choices, so that the pattern of standing between civilians and monstrosities is not a fluke of the DYING GANG or voting mechanisms but a coherent and consistent Choice made by a Hunger who sees no path but the most heroic option.
I would be personally very relieved to have such a dramatic rebuke of the characterization that caused so many hurt feelings. There are a lot of different pictures of Hunger floating around the thread's mindspace, and starting a path that grows beyond the character's previous mistakes would maybe be a good compromise.
There's also the issue of wordcount: a dramatic fight against Letrizia's true enemies is a very fitting way to wrap up the Voyaging Realm arc. It overwrites Hunger's pyrrhic victory against the Tyrant with an unambiguous (though not necessarily unadulterated) win. This path recasts Letrizia's return to the Human Sphere as a chance for Hunger to get things right. With SitS even this voterbase would struggle to irredeemably fuck up the rulership component of our task.
The embrace of heroism is seen by our Sponsor, of course. I argued aggressively that one of the benefits of Favor is the chance to demonstrate our commitment to Haeliel's example, as a way of building up to when we ask her to be our committed Cursebearer Association Sponsor. Having +2 Haeliel Points does not have any mechanical effect but it absolutely will influence the conversations that we have when she shows up to teach Ordinalism. Learning about the nuances of Heroism will go faster if Hunger has some hands-on experience trying to be a hero. This also might make Haeliel's advice about Curse mitigation more relevant. Hunger can only follow Heroic-themed mitigation strategies if he himself is on the path of a hero.
There isn't a lot to be said about the mechanical rewards of success. We've seen only one 5-pick advancement that I can remember: Fisher King provides +10 Accursed Favor & some other benefits. The +1 Heroic Upgrade is not so much a mystery box as a Premium DLC Lootbox - it would give us all a real sense of pride and accomplishment. I mean, +Heroic Progression has already given Hunger a +ISH boost that was packaged with enough wisdom and finesse to perfectly incorporate his new abilities. The path of Heroism comes with certain perks, and it would be silly to ignore them out of a false pretense of modesty.
With regards to the Epilogue, successfully managing to [ ] Hold the Line will provide a further intensification of the value from extrapolated Progression and Arete generation. Taking a 5-pick advancement boosted by a +Heroic upgrade will dramatically improve the average value of our advancements. This average value is basically what will be used to project forward to see how Hunger fares once we aren't meddling with his choices. The effects of this advancement might plausibly be enough to let Hunger cut through all post-endgame challenges. It will certainly bring us closer to the power level needed to solo the entire Human Sphere.
The second option is to Call Up an advancement by launching Hunger himself into a worthy challenge. What I find interesting is that this choice is essentially what we have been doing, successfully, for the entire Quest. When Letrizia was hurt by Ber, we hunted down a target that would provide a healing ability. The threat of the Clockwork (?) Knights in the culling grounds was quickly out scaled by the baseline power of progression. When Vanreir's 4-pick fight opened our eyes to the true heights of the power ladder in the Temple of the False Moon, we dipped out to pick up a new magic system and kill a few Elite Rotbeasties. When Stenallon Worldkeeper and Evangeline Worldkeeper were too powerful to fight simultaneously, we isolated Eva and killed her for a mid battle power up. When Hunger wasn't smart enough to think of a way to fight the Rotbeast, we snacked on a miniature armor prototype for a pick that helped us make a better decision. Even the Armament Fish could've been treated as a mid-combat power up had greed for Fisher King not blinded us to the threat level posed by Adorie.
What I'm saying is that the thread's method of solving problems and avoiding consequences has been to lean pretty hard on the power of Progression unbound. I think that this pattern has been woven into the narrative reliably enough that it's worthwhile to consider how the Apocryphal Curse might consider the issue. Rihaku notes in a statement that "The Apocryphal Curse is the test. Endeavours you seek out are the prep." We have practiced the Art of Progression, and just now received a +ISH bonus to that ability. Calling up the Shard of the Arcanist is the test!
Let me tell you that a climax that hinges on the successful application of a tactic developed by us, the voters, would be a satisfying capstone for the Voyaging Realm arc. If Call Up succeeds then we vindicate every single compromise between the DYING and NOT DYING GANGs. We vindicate the decision to take Vengeance instead of Freedom. In tabletop gaming, there isn't much that I find more satisfying than teaching my players how to use their character's build and watching the engine come online. This is our chance to express Hunger's growing confidence and competence as a Progression Type Cursebearer. Hunger has the tools needed to succeed: Rank and +ISH LUCK provide a foot in the door to the Arcanist's Crypt. Fighting a Chromatic beast will be (1) exciting, and (2) profitable, as it allows us to spend a prodigious amount of Arete right before a big fight. OaF3 is viable, or a combination of other abilities. Going into a major fight with Arete in the Bank is unwise, both because it represents untapped power but also because it represents untapped wordcount that could've been spent on shiny new blurbs.
This option is more than a reward for consistently voting to unlock as many blurbs as possible. We are also getting the some of that good F O R E M O S T L O R E. I mentioned in my vote that the Arcanist Shard is an encounter that will define the rest of the setting. As a component of an Armament battle with the Plenary Brand Armament, the Arcanist is guaranteed to give us information about its weak points (that's the entire point of the Curse it weaponizes). But we are also likely to learn more about Verschlengorge and Armaments generally, Aobaru's role in the Voyaging Realm, Adorie's bloodline & the benefits of unlocking when we visit the Realm of Evening, the Well of Myth, Augustine's Runic Language that Gisena is now using... the Arcanist is a treasure trove of information. She's also an absolute unit: lurking in a dungeon with hyper dangerous Chromatic Beasts as minions is peak #aesthetique.
Upon a success, the thread will get picks. Good. We'll also get information. In terms of changing the trajectory of the Epilogue, making proactive efforts to learn details about our enemies is a positive step forwards. This is a more subtle change than the effect from Fall Back, but it is a change nonetheless. I think there's a lot to like about this option.
The third option is to Fall Back. I have been banging the drum about how plot votes precede build votes, to the point that I was a jerk about it a week or two ago. This option is explicitly the opportunity that I was talking about: when faced with an overwhelming foe, the objectively correct choice for a Progression Type is to retreat, grind, and then annihilate the offending parties. From a higher perch on the Infinite Singularity Husk, many daunting problems can be trivially resolved. However, it is dead last in the ranking of 'things that are fun to read about.' I suppose that's the price for skipping right to the Realm of Evening.
In memory of my now lapsed membership in NOT DYING GANG, I initially had an impulse to defend this option. There are enough disclaimers and warnings in the previous blurbs that a concern about an unwelcome end is extremely reasonable. A 5-pick fight is something that has been looming over the thread since Vanreir, and the Arcanist adds a ??-pick fight on top of that risk. But then the arguments about prudence and prioritization for Progression Types started rolling out and I became much less enthusiastic about the idea. I'm particularly troubled by the justification that Hunger will eventually have the power to resurrect any victims of collateral damage from his choices. Whether or not this prediction actually comes true, the argument proves too much. I'm not prepared to endorse every possible self-preserving action from now until the end of the epilogue. Even if Hunger retains his set of essentially positive intentions, this might contribute to a values drift problem...
(Abandoning Nilfel to the whims of a militarily untouchable occupying force of witch-hunters also undermines the effort that CB put into Synthesis and completely erases the gains of the +Nilfel gains that led us to taking Cursebearer's Strain in the first place. That smarts.)
So I'll admit that I was feeling pretty down about any potential character beats surrounding Fall Back. But then Aab posted his True Lies plan, which has a creative approach to managing the crisis. With a heavy helping of misdirection, Adorie might be able to mitigate the worst of the friction caused by the mage kidnappers backed by a military super weapon. I really like supporting tactics posts, so if I think of any ways to improve the plan I will definitely post them. Beyond supporting thread engagement, there's a more fundamental reason that Aab's plan redeems the choice to Fall Back:
Hunger's coolest defining character beat comes from Age and Treachery. Pulling off a Bowser style switcharoo where the Duchess is in a different castle would be such a satisfying illustration of how Hunger has grown. With Age comes perspective, and strategically ceding ground to establish a more optimal battlefield is a skill that Hunger must have learned during his war on the Tyrant. Reclaiming the mantle of strategist immediately after Haeliel healed his remaining wounds from the Isekai world is a fitting ascension, a return to the man that Hunger should have been absent the damage from his Shattering Blow. With Treachery, Hunger and Adorie can claw back some scrap of Nilfel's dignity by making the Republic pay for the inconvenience they've caused. We're going to repair the Walls of Myth, and the Republic is going to pay for it!
In terms of the Epilogue, this option probably does the most to improve Hunger's long term chances of being alive, albeit at the cost of a short term catastrophe for our allies. I can understand that the combination of a cool Age & Treachery activation with long-term survival might outweigh the painful consequences to Nilfel, so I'm at least sympathetic to Aab's drive to brainstorm tactics.
Note: This post was an attempt to inject some positivity into the outcome for each option. I might've fallen a bit short for Fall Back, which has caused the most polarization so far. But I can at least imagine a set of reasons that would feature in the mind of someone who supports Fall Back. Also, I focused on the outcomes where the options are successful. Any of the three could be painful with a bad enough roll. Deciding which of the three options to vote for isn't the point of this post, I just wanted to talk through some of the reasons that each one might be a satisfying investment of wordcount.
#2200 Words
The three options in front of us are all very intense. I hope that any of these could be fun to read about. And I think that Hunger has a decent chance of survival with all of them, which is almost as important. Hold the Line gives us a dramatic final showdown to end our time in the Voyaging Realm. Call Up sees us descend into the Arcanist's vault and return with a vestige of the Foremost to repudiate the aggression of their discarded toys. Fall Back is a pivot to the enlightened view necessary for survival to High Cursebearer status. Conditional on success, any of these strikes me as a watershed moment for Hunger's development as a cursebearer. I want to put some enthusiasm on the page for each option. (I admit, some Discourse impacted my thoughts on Fall Back).
First, Hold the Line. This is so much more than a repetition of the fight with the Armament fish, where we dispatched the only recurring villain so far in AST; it is more than a repetition of our defense against the Rotbeastie, where we unlocked the Praxis; it is more than an inversion of the Temple Arc, where Hunger was the monster at the gates: Hold the Line turns every drop of blood and tears and salt, every advancement, every Kaiju fight into Foreshadowing. This option ties a bow on the arc of our choices, so that the pattern of standing between civilians and monstrosities is not a fluke of the DYING GANG or voting mechanisms but a coherent and consistent Choice made by a Hunger who sees no path but the most heroic option.
I would be personally very relieved to have such a dramatic rebuke of the characterization that caused so many hurt feelings. There are a lot of different pictures of Hunger floating around the thread's mindspace, and starting a path that grows beyond the character's previous mistakes would maybe be a good compromise.
There's also the issue of wordcount: a dramatic fight against Letrizia's true enemies is a very fitting way to wrap up the Voyaging Realm arc. It overwrites Hunger's pyrrhic victory against the Tyrant with an unambiguous (though not necessarily unadulterated) win. This path recasts Letrizia's return to the Human Sphere as a chance for Hunger to get things right. With SitS even this voterbase would struggle to irredeemably fuck up the rulership component of our task.
The embrace of heroism is seen by our Sponsor, of course. I argued aggressively that one of the benefits of Favor is the chance to demonstrate our commitment to Haeliel's example, as a way of building up to when we ask her to be our committed Cursebearer Association Sponsor. Having +2 Haeliel Points does not have any mechanical effect but it absolutely will influence the conversations that we have when she shows up to teach Ordinalism. Learning about the nuances of Heroism will go faster if Hunger has some hands-on experience trying to be a hero. This also might make Haeliel's advice about Curse mitigation more relevant. Hunger can only follow Heroic-themed mitigation strategies if he himself is on the path of a hero.
There isn't a lot to be said about the mechanical rewards of success. We've seen only one 5-pick advancement that I can remember: Fisher King provides +10 Accursed Favor & some other benefits. The +1 Heroic Upgrade is not so much a mystery box as a Premium DLC Lootbox - it would give us all a real sense of pride and accomplishment. I mean, +Heroic Progression has already given Hunger a +ISH boost that was packaged with enough wisdom and finesse to perfectly incorporate his new abilities. The path of Heroism comes with certain perks, and it would be silly to ignore them out of a false pretense of modesty.
With regards to the Epilogue, successfully managing to [ ] Hold the Line will provide a further intensification of the value from extrapolated Progression and Arete generation. Taking a 5-pick advancement boosted by a +Heroic upgrade will dramatically improve the average value of our advancements. This average value is basically what will be used to project forward to see how Hunger fares once we aren't meddling with his choices. The effects of this advancement might plausibly be enough to let Hunger cut through all post-endgame challenges. It will certainly bring us closer to the power level needed to solo the entire Human Sphere.
...
The second option is to Call Up an advancement by launching Hunger himself into a worthy challenge. What I find interesting is that this choice is essentially what we have been doing, successfully, for the entire Quest. When Letrizia was hurt by Ber, we hunted down a target that would provide a healing ability. The threat of the Clockwork (?) Knights in the culling grounds was quickly out scaled by the baseline power of progression. When Vanreir's 4-pick fight opened our eyes to the true heights of the power ladder in the Temple of the False Moon, we dipped out to pick up a new magic system and kill a few Elite Rotbeasties. When Stenallon Worldkeeper and Evangeline Worldkeeper were too powerful to fight simultaneously, we isolated Eva and killed her for a mid battle power up. When Hunger wasn't smart enough to think of a way to fight the Rotbeast, we snacked on a miniature armor prototype for a pick that helped us make a better decision. Even the Armament Fish could've been treated as a mid-combat power up had greed for Fisher King not blinded us to the threat level posed by Adorie.
What I'm saying is that the thread's method of solving problems and avoiding consequences has been to lean pretty hard on the power of Progression unbound. I think that this pattern has been woven into the narrative reliably enough that it's worthwhile to consider how the Apocryphal Curse might consider the issue. Rihaku notes in a statement that "The Apocryphal Curse is the test. Endeavours you seek out are the prep." We have practiced the Art of Progression, and just now received a +ISH bonus to that ability. Calling up the Shard of the Arcanist is the test!
Let me tell you that a climax that hinges on the successful application of a tactic developed by us, the voters, would be a satisfying capstone for the Voyaging Realm arc. If Call Up succeeds then we vindicate every single compromise between the DYING and NOT DYING GANGs. We vindicate the decision to take Vengeance instead of Freedom. In tabletop gaming, there isn't much that I find more satisfying than teaching my players how to use their character's build and watching the engine come online. This is our chance to express Hunger's growing confidence and competence as a Progression Type Cursebearer. Hunger has the tools needed to succeed: Rank and +ISH LUCK provide a foot in the door to the Arcanist's Crypt. Fighting a Chromatic beast will be (1) exciting, and (2) profitable, as it allows us to spend a prodigious amount of Arete right before a big fight. OaF3 is viable, or a combination of other abilities. Going into a major fight with Arete in the Bank is unwise, both because it represents untapped power but also because it represents untapped wordcount that could've been spent on shiny new blurbs.
This option is more than a reward for consistently voting to unlock as many blurbs as possible. We are also getting the some of that good F O R E M O S T L O R E. I mentioned in my vote that the Arcanist Shard is an encounter that will define the rest of the setting. As a component of an Armament battle with the Plenary Brand Armament, the Arcanist is guaranteed to give us information about its weak points (that's the entire point of the Curse it weaponizes). But we are also likely to learn more about Verschlengorge and Armaments generally, Aobaru's role in the Voyaging Realm, Adorie's bloodline & the benefits of unlocking when we visit the Realm of Evening, the Well of Myth, Augustine's Runic Language that Gisena is now using... the Arcanist is a treasure trove of information. She's also an absolute unit: lurking in a dungeon with hyper dangerous Chromatic Beasts as minions is peak #aesthetique.
Upon a success, the thread will get picks. Good. We'll also get information. In terms of changing the trajectory of the Epilogue, making proactive efforts to learn details about our enemies is a positive step forwards. This is a more subtle change than the effect from Fall Back, but it is a change nonetheless. I think there's a lot to like about this option.
...
The third option is to Fall Back. I have been banging the drum about how plot votes precede build votes, to the point that I was a jerk about it a week or two ago. This option is explicitly the opportunity that I was talking about: when faced with an overwhelming foe, the objectively correct choice for a Progression Type is to retreat, grind, and then annihilate the offending parties. From a higher perch on the Infinite Singularity Husk, many daunting problems can be trivially resolved. However, it is dead last in the ranking of 'things that are fun to read about.' I suppose that's the price for skipping right to the Realm of Evening.
In memory of my now lapsed membership in NOT DYING GANG, I initially had an impulse to defend this option. There are enough disclaimers and warnings in the previous blurbs that a concern about an unwelcome end is extremely reasonable. A 5-pick fight is something that has been looming over the thread since Vanreir, and the Arcanist adds a ??-pick fight on top of that risk. But then the arguments about prudence and prioritization for Progression Types started rolling out and I became much less enthusiastic about the idea. I'm particularly troubled by the justification that Hunger will eventually have the power to resurrect any victims of collateral damage from his choices. Whether or not this prediction actually comes true, the argument proves too much. I'm not prepared to endorse every possible self-preserving action from now until the end of the epilogue. Even if Hunger retains his set of essentially positive intentions, this might contribute to a values drift problem...
(Abandoning Nilfel to the whims of a militarily untouchable occupying force of witch-hunters also undermines the effort that CB put into Synthesis and completely erases the gains of the +Nilfel gains that led us to taking Cursebearer's Strain in the first place. That smarts.)
So I'll admit that I was feeling pretty down about any potential character beats surrounding Fall Back. But then Aab posted his True Lies plan, which has a creative approach to managing the crisis. With a heavy helping of misdirection, Adorie might be able to mitigate the worst of the friction caused by the mage kidnappers backed by a military super weapon. I really like supporting tactics posts, so if I think of any ways to improve the plan I will definitely post them. Beyond supporting thread engagement, there's a more fundamental reason that Aab's plan redeems the choice to Fall Back:
Hunger's coolest defining character beat comes from Age and Treachery. Pulling off a Bowser style switcharoo where the Duchess is in a different castle would be such a satisfying illustration of how Hunger has grown. With Age comes perspective, and strategically ceding ground to establish a more optimal battlefield is a skill that Hunger must have learned during his war on the Tyrant. Reclaiming the mantle of strategist immediately after Haeliel healed his remaining wounds from the Isekai world is a fitting ascension, a return to the man that Hunger should have been absent the damage from his Shattering Blow. With Treachery, Hunger and Adorie can claw back some scrap of Nilfel's dignity by making the Republic pay for the inconvenience they've caused. We're going to repair the Walls of Myth, and the Republic is going to pay for it!
In terms of the Epilogue, this option probably does the most to improve Hunger's long term chances of being alive, albeit at the cost of a short term catastrophe for our allies. I can understand that the combination of a cool Age & Treachery activation with long-term survival might outweigh the painful consequences to Nilfel, so I'm at least sympathetic to Aab's drive to brainstorm tactics.
Note: This post was an attempt to inject some positivity into the outcome for each option. I might've fallen a bit short for Fall Back, which has caused the most polarization so far. But I can at least imagine a set of reasons that would feature in the mind of someone who supports Fall Back. Also, I focused on the outcomes where the options are successful. Any of the three could be painful with a bad enough roll. Deciding which of the three options to vote for isn't the point of this post, I just wanted to talk through some of the reasons that each one might be a satisfying investment of wordcount.
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If by protecting an innocent woman you mean just Letrizia and no one else, then Fall Back is explicitly stated to be the best for accomplishing this.
The reason I called it ironic is because I see no difference between Hunger conquering Nifiel in order to get the tower, and the Republic conquering Nifiel in order to get Letrizia. My interpretation of those chapters was that his conquest was about self-enrichment. If you interpreted those chapters as Hunger genuinely desiring to do the moral thing then I'm not sure what to say since that's a difference of opinion that can't be easily resolved.
It says they'll leave after a couple hours right here:
The mages are slow but they get results, and once their mages detect Hunger and Letrizia are gone they'll leave. They're not going to stick around committing war crimes after those first couple hours, this is a professional kill-team with objectives, not bored sociopaths on vacation. There's no reason to go on a house-to-house manhunt/massacre when you know, for a fact, that the people you are searching for are a thousand light-years away.
They might leave a garrison, but I would expect the main force to move out after their objective
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- Location
- Pindorama
At the cost of other innocent lives, yes.
No one knows the Republic enough to say about how many warcrimes they would commit, if any. Even if they stay for less than a day, several hours of looting and kidnapping is still plenty enough for the Nifelians to want to defend themselves and try to fight the invading force for no gain. Even if we ask them not to resist, how could they not? It's their lives and their people who would be harmed this. They would try to resist even if it's futile.
At this point you are basically arguing that the downsides of the listed option do not exist. Yes, there is a real risk Niefel resists even if it's futile and the soldiers die anyway, likely even more than if we choose Hold the Line. There's no part of the option saying they peacefully leave. Trying to choose Fall Back to preserve the lives of the soldiers is completely misguided. You will likely do the very opposite.
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Alright, lets talk about tactics. So far I've outlined general challenges of upcoming combat as well as the ways we can spend Arete in preparation for it. Now, lets talk about something else. Thanks to Favor, we have access to OaF II. But what that means for us?
OaF II improves all our stats, Rank and abilities by 0.2 steps on Infinity Singularity Husk. In our training session we saw some general improvements to our abilities, enough to completely stomp Vershe and Aobaru(who are likely at ~8.5 combat) without using our Rank or special abilities. Hunger also commented how he could immediately use those abilities to full effects, referring to his mental buff. In terms of numbers, we have old statement that our stats are between 1.4 and 1.6 ISH - presumably 1.4 being neglected stuff such as int or manipulation while 1.6 are stuff we focused on, such as agility and charisma. With combat OaF II and Aobaru's buff, we should see major improvement in all of these, getting to 1.6 in manip, 1.8 in charisma and 1.9 in agility. Still not enough to challenge Armament stats, but this is still super massive increase in our combat potential, also cleanly solving issue of Rank/Stat imbalance we had. Not completely, but by a decent amount.
Not all stats are the same, however. Getting Charisma to 1.8 has pretty massive effects on convincing people(which was already covered by vote option), while getting Might to 1.8~1.9 both massively improves our power of Ruin, and increases our general stamina to pretty silly levels. And while our physical stats are still heavily lagging behind Procyon, this does mean that our combat got significant buff, and that we might even turn back to our old strategy of wearing down opponents with Ruin.
Still, this does pose one very important question - how does OaF actually work? We know it buffs Str. We know it buffs abilities such as Ruin. Does that mean that we can double dip on OaF II, buffing both stats/rank and abilities that scale with them? We have short talk on discord about this, and conclusion is that OaF II works as multiplier that's applied after everything else. So instead of OaF boosted Str working with OaF boosted Ruin, you'd have OaF boosting result of Ruin/Str interaction. I think that this makes sense.
Back to what OaF does in practices, the second thing OaF boosts is Rank. Now, this is pretty good given that our early build put a lot focus on Rank. In fact, our Rank should be ever higher than Procyon's! With 9.6 Combat Rank(9.7-0.1 for armor) and 0.2 ish Rank, we should have upwards of 11 Rank. This actually changes my initial calculations, which assumed that we'd have slight disadvantage in terms of Rank, that would be reduced by HDS/Bastion. While this should be mitigated by the Shroud and so on, it should still allow us to somewhat reduce the speed disparity between us. Other than this, we can expect major improvements in terms of Bloodcasting and so on.
Finally, there are abilities:
Overall, OaF II is suitably comprehensive and impressive upgrade to our entire arsenal. Is it enough to face an Armament, juggernaut that faced full(?) might of Astral Realm for thousands of years? Well, it's on use to make it so!
Stay tuned for our next segment - why getting 6th Sign might actually be a good fucking purchase.
OaF II improves all our stats, Rank and abilities by 0.2 steps on Infinity Singularity Husk. In our training session we saw some general improvements to our abilities, enough to completely stomp Vershe and Aobaru(who are likely at ~8.5 combat) without using our Rank or special abilities. Hunger also commented how he could immediately use those abilities to full effects, referring to his mental buff. In terms of numbers, we have old statement that our stats are between 1.4 and 1.6 ISH - presumably 1.4 being neglected stuff such as int or manipulation while 1.6 are stuff we focused on, such as agility and charisma. With combat OaF II and Aobaru's buff, we should see major improvement in all of these, getting to 1.6 in manip, 1.8 in charisma and 1.9 in agility. Still not enough to challenge Armament stats, but this is still super massive increase in our combat potential, also cleanly solving issue of Rank/Stat imbalance we had. Not completely, but by a decent amount.
Not all stats are the same, however. Getting Charisma to 1.8 has pretty massive effects on convincing people(which was already covered by vote option), while getting Might to 1.8~1.9 both massively improves our power of Ruin, and increases our general stamina to pretty silly levels. And while our physical stats are still heavily lagging behind Procyon, this does mean that our combat got significant buff, and that we might even turn back to our old strategy of wearing down opponents with Ruin.
Still, this does pose one very important question - how does OaF actually work? We know it buffs Str. We know it buffs abilities such as Ruin. Does that mean that we can double dip on OaF II, buffing both stats/rank and abilities that scale with them? We have short talk on discord about this, and conclusion is that OaF II works as multiplier that's applied after everything else. So instead of OaF boosted Str working with OaF boosted Ruin, you'd have OaF boosting result of Ruin/Str interaction. I think that this makes sense.
Back to what OaF does in practices, the second thing OaF boosts is Rank. Now, this is pretty good given that our early build put a lot focus on Rank. In fact, our Rank should be ever higher than Procyon's! With 9.6 Combat Rank(9.7-0.1 for armor) and 0.2 ish Rank, we should have upwards of 11 Rank. This actually changes my initial calculations, which assumed that we'd have slight disadvantage in terms of Rank, that would be reduced by HDS/Bastion. While this should be mitigated by the Shroud and so on, it should still allow us to somewhat reduce the speed disparity between us. Other than this, we can expect major improvements in terms of Bloodcasting and so on.
Finally, there are abilities:
- Armor of Midnight scales almost perfectly with OaF II. It gives us infinite Protection(so ish 1.99), which would then be boosted to 2.3 by Aobaru and OaF II. This is actually highly relevant against Armament's attack, which might easily cross 2.0 threshold and pierce standard defense provided by Armor
- Deathly Star and Artful Thorn(or general praxis upgrades) equal more damage. This is very important in this matchup
- General upgrades to Ruin, Outer Shadow, Bloodcasting and Rank means that our old strategy of slowly wearing opponent down might actually be viable here
- Upgraded summoning means possibility of pretty powerful Astral gribly - as in, 9.7 duder. Hopefully he will do it for free since our opponent is an Armament. I will touch more on this when i post general tactics
- Undying Vanguard is going to have to do a lot of work here, as our allies are also our weak points
Overall, OaF II is suitably comprehensive and impressive upgrade to our entire arsenal. Is it enough to face an Armament, juggernaut that faced full(?) might of Astral Realm for thousands of years? Well, it's on use to make it so!
Stay tuned for our next segment - why getting 6th Sign might actually be a good fucking purchase.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Just to piggyback on this, there are some serious consequences to allowing even a few hours of unchecked looting and kidnapping.
First and foremost, the Mythic Realm was home to a store of knowledge about history and Magic that might be unique in the Voyaging Realm since Hunger didn't rescue the Realm of Towers from Typhonmiele. Allowing the Republic to steal a treasure trove of magical research and powerful artifacts is a strategic blunder. The Human Sphere is on the brink of war and we are going to be squaring off against the Republic on the field of battle. Nilfel's knowledge might be a dramatic advantage for our enemy given that the Republic Mage Extraction Teams have obviously kidnapped enough Mages to deploy them in the field!
Second, it's not just scrolls and artifacts that the Republic will be taking. Every prominent Academic, every Mythic craftsman, every last scion of a forgotten and powerful magic system is likely to get whisked off to a black site. Only Procyon is required to defeat Hunger; the other prototype armors might actually be liabilities for that fight. (They can find this out by interrogating anybody who saw Hunger fight, or torturing Adorie.) The Republic will get much more value by absconding with the Intelligentsia and pawing through their minds at leisure under more controlled circumstances. The Republic stands to gain a great deal of leverage in their attack against the Empire if the Mythic Platinum augmentation that Versch received is relevant when the Armament is fully repaired.
Third, it's not just scrolls and artifacts and highly skilled experts that the Republic will be taking. Currently the Realm of Myth's entire supply of Mythic Platinum is in circulation - civilians have it. A few hours of unchecked looting is enough to appropriate a huge amount of wealth. Nilfel's 'working to ensure a prosperous economy' is anchored partly in the use of mythic platinum for transactions. Taking away the last remaining physical currency might collapse the working entirely, leading to the Existential Diminishment that CB worked so hard to avoid.
Fourth, the boosts from Synthesis are not the only places where Fall Back undermines our gains from the timeskip in Nilfel. All gains to Nilfel Power, Nilfel Prosperity, Elixir Power, Elixir Prosperity, Temple Strength, and Temple Prosperity from Consolidate Power / Regency will be completely eliminated. A Nilfel that has been humbled in front of its former conquests is not one that will be able to extend protection over the Sovereignty & Temple Remnant.
I'll happily admit that not all of these will come to pass at the maximum severity. However, even if Nilfel emerges from their spanking by the Republic relatively unharmed, Adorie's trust in Hunger as a patron and protector will be shattered. Maybe she comes with us while we hide. Maybe she gets left behind and can't visit the Realm of Evening. Either way, the prospect of unlocking the Mirellyian Bloodline sure seems to go out the window. The favorable trade deals become a political liability for Adorie at a time when the Old Guard will be calling for her blood.
The costs of Fall Back are not trivial, and they are not 'merely' moral ones. There are real and practical complications to Hunger's Geas Task as a result of ducking this fight. Some of them can be overcome, but some will linger even as we leave the VR behind.
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Alright, lets talk about 6th sign. So far, not a single person voted for it - which is actually fair enough, as it does have a steep cost. However, after pondering I've decided that purchasing 6th is, in fact, pretty much a no-brainer. And not only for Hold the Line, which would indeed benefit the most from this choice, but for every build.
Before we start, I would like to talk about something that people seem to be misunderstanding. Stuff we get by defeating Procyon's are not rewards. We are not fighting him for rewards, we are fighting him to defeat him. Picks and Heroic Progression are insurance - they allow us to play inefficiently in order to beat Procyon. Best example, we can piss away 28 Arete and Bastion to purchase FDS in order to beat Procyon and still not feel bad about it because we get a lot out of defeating him anyway. It would be awesome if we could beat him efficiently and reap the rewards, of course, but this is not time to be greedy.
Note that this doesn't mean that getting 6th Sign is inefficient. This is just general observation. Now, back to topic. Why is 6th Sign actually good and why you should vote for it:
And there you have it. In the end, I think that it's easy to conclude that paying 1 Rank for 6th Sign is generally a really good trade. Additionally, this looks like a good gamble for Hold The Line side - we've already accepted that we are rolling the dices, and I'd much rather take my chances with getting combat relevant Sign rather than hoping for a Praxis spending point. And if we get both, well, I wouldn't be against it!
With that, I would implore all voters to consider including Aggressive Research in your vote, as we do have to beat 50% of all votes to have it win.
[X] Hold the Line
[X] Aggressive Research
Before we start, I would like to talk about something that people seem to be misunderstanding. Stuff we get by defeating Procyon's are not rewards. We are not fighting him for rewards, we are fighting him to defeat him. Picks and Heroic Progression are insurance - they allow us to play inefficiently in order to beat Procyon. Best example, we can piss away 28 Arete and Bastion to purchase FDS in order to beat Procyon and still not feel bad about it because we get a lot out of defeating him anyway. It would be awesome if we could beat him efficiently and reap the rewards, of course, but this is not time to be greedy.
Note that this doesn't mean that getting 6th Sign is inefficient. This is just general observation. Now, back to topic. Why is 6th Sign actually good and why you should vote for it:
- Lets begin with you folks are not voting for it - 1 Rank is quite a lot of fucking Rank. In practical terms, that is 1 Rank lower Blood casting, 1 Rank lower Deathly Star and 1 Rank lower when fighting in general. That's pretty major, isn't it? Just reading this makes you go nope. But, I think that's fine. Here's a simple question, if forced to choose, what would you lose - 1 Rank, or Armor of Midnight?
- Indeed, above is the essence of this argument. Going over our general abilities made me realize sheer importance of Armor of Midnight in our build. It's easily more important than 1 Rank. Given that 6th Sign is likely to be stronger, we can assume that this would be a worthwhile trade
- Other than question of power, there's the question of value. We'd go from Rank 7.6 down to Rank 6.6; going back up would require a good amount of Arete or time. However, consider the costs of Signs - purchasing 4th would cost 1 pick and 7 Arete while 5th was 2 picks and 12 Arete. Assuming the trend holds, 6th would had 3 picks 25 Arete worth of value(or perhaps 19?), which is to say a lot of it.
- The point is that you are not spending Rank, you are merely transforming value into something that has much more short term potential. The value might not be preserved perfectly during the transformation, sure, but the power of 6th Sign should be worth it anyway. In the end, we can earn both Rank and Sign with time, and I do think that spending time to earn back Rank while having sign is more efficient than doing it the other way around
- As such, I would argue that every build would benefit from getting Sign right now. Hold the Line for getting something combat related, other two for sheer value
- Now, another downside is that we don't know what Signs do, or what costs they have. However, I think that we can extrapolate enough from previous choices to make this choice somewhat informed
- I don't think that power of 6th Sign is in a question. Deathly Star could blow up a planet, while Armor of Midnight can withstand universe-sundering blows. While I'm not expecting multiverse level stuff, anything superior to Armor of Midnight in pure potency is liable to be the strongest not OaF ability we have. As such, we should just get it
- There is worry that offered signs won't be applicable to our situation - perhaps they are utility flavored, or they have cost that makes them unusable in current context and so on. However, looking at previous choices informs us that this is unlikely to be case. Most Sign choices had multiple combat relevant signs. Virtually every Noonday sign we've seen so far was easy "just do it" with zero cost. Even utility Signs tends to offer enough combat boost to be relevant etc. Between all of these and fact that we will be offered three picks, chances are that we will end up with something useful
- This is especially true for non-Hold The Line options, as they can pick their Sign more freely
- Of course, there's a decent chance that we will have to pick non-Night Sign and delay our bonus. It sucks, but it is what it is. This is not time for greed
And there you have it. In the end, I think that it's easy to conclude that paying 1 Rank for 6th Sign is generally a really good trade. Additionally, this looks like a good gamble for Hold The Line side - we've already accepted that we are rolling the dices, and I'd much rather take my chances with getting combat relevant Sign rather than hoping for a Praxis spending point. And if we get both, well, I wouldn't be against it!
With that, I would implore all voters to consider including Aggressive Research in your vote, as we do have to beat 50% of all votes to have it win.
[X] Hold the Line
[X] Aggressive Research
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