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A Simple Transaction I

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I realized a potential synergy. If we can store wakefulness with Seven Seals(Seven Seals can store esoteric things so this is extremely probable, and this may not even qualify as esoteric) we can neutralize the fatigue cost of Iron Curtain. Storing wakefulness also acts as a backdoor Slumber of Aeons Sleep Banking technique.
 
I think I was misunderstanding the wording of Pitiless Maw. I was thinking since it was passive it heals you constantly at the amount your melee hits do, even if you don't actually attack. It being lifesteal makes more sense since the strength of you attacks would vary.
 
ImperatorV said:
Cons: Takes time to pay off once we get it. Doesn't add any new abilities.
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It gives you two ranks in All Stats immediately and master-level control of causality via the Ring of Power effect! That said, there is one CON you didn't mention, the most obvious one!

Watch your back for Islidurs, bro...

Harried said:
@Rihaku , does sleep in 'permanently' downgrade exhausted to mostly exhausted
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It permanently mitigates this instance of Exhausted, yes.
 
Rihaku said:
Versatility is underrated I think. You want healing? This can do that. Utility? Your current moves are mostly variants of Sword Hit Good. You guys gave up King of Thieves to pursue the magus path, this is one of the best magical systems you could gain access to in the short to medium term unless you want to take a pure potential-based EFB-equivalent like Total Eclipse.
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Oh great, now I have to un-eliminate Azure Moon from the running. That makes things even worse!

Ugh, So Azure Moon gets us a lot of different effects, we can direct what effects we research to pursue specific things, Imprison can be used for curse mitigation IIRC, more mage-like magic opens up more mage-like options in the future, ect. Now I have to decide if it's worth the third slot, still not dropping Once and Future or Pillars of Creation.
 
[X] Research the Spoils
[X] Save 3 Options
[X] [A Thousand Cuts]
[X] [Pitiless Maw]
[X] Total Eclipse
I try to take awhile to decide, but this time it's pretty straightforward for me. I like swords, I like stabbing fools, I like curse mitigation, but most of all I like actually getting awesome stuff without giving myself a hernia first.
 
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ImperatorV said:
That leaves us with the third slot. That third slot could be Total Eclipse for Gisena and power, Dead but Dreaming for get-out-of-death-free card and new magic, or Ruling Ring for across the board everything. Maw/Cuts takes two slots and I'm completely unwilling to drop Pillars or Once and Future.
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I'd be willing to go for this is we can get people to precommit to buying Maw or Cuts next chance we have before they get more expensive or we lose them. Especially Maw. That one is scary good. I'd be willing to go for Once and Future, Pillars, and either Maw or Cuts with precommit to buy the other next chance we have.

7 Arete options are just barely cheap enough we can get them semi-regularly, which means they shouldn't require investment if we can get people to actually follow a plan and not chase the first shiny they see without considering longer-term consequences. Which after the fishing vote I am... very concerned may not be possible.


Sickul said:
I think I was misunderstanding the wording of Pitiless Maw. I was thinking since it was passive it heals you constantly at the amount your melee hits do, even if you don't actually attack. It being lifesteal makes more sense since the strength of you attacks would vary.
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Yeah, I suspect the wording is important for what kind of magic effects it - magic that disrupts lifesteal effects won't touch it, but magic that prevents natural healing will.
 
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Please save for Pillars if you are saving for anything people. We choose Hunting mitigation; if we want to guarantee the safety of the Human Sphere from ourselves, getting options to improve that is critical.

Thomasfoolery said:
These aren't the only EFBs in the sea.We might not find these specific ones again but we'll find others eventually. That's the magic of progression, but we have to live to do that. It also clearly does not go against the purpose of it considering there's an option to do just that embedded in the makeup of the vote options.
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Sword+Progression was also embedded in the make-up of the options. Unless you want to argue there were no problems with that vote whatsoever?

Thomasfoolery said:
We win the game by multipliers, EFBs are great multipliers but they're also irrelevant until we get them. Completely stifling our Arete based early game multipliers does not seem like the best strategy to me. I very easily can envision the increased gains we get from a single 7 cost implemented soon being more significant to our eventual victory than a 25 cost we get in 15 updates rather than 20.
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What the hell do you mean by stifling? Again, we don't need to spend Arete on them until we are ready. Literally the price is the opportunity cost of those 4 Arete; they aren't even lost. We can go right back to spending on things that improve our short-term survival while having the assurance of having gamechangers waiting in the wings. Assuring the existence of the long-term is only prudent.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Byzantine on May 30, 2020 at 3:06 AM, finished with 62 posts and 14 votes.
  • [X] Sleep In
    [X] Finally Get in the Robot
    -[X] [A Thousand Cuts]
    [X] Save 3 Options
    [X] [Ruling Ring]
    [X] Save 1 Option
    -[X] [Pitiless Maw]
    [X] Save 5 Options
    [X] [A Thousand Cuts]
    [X] [Once And Future]
    [X] [Pitiless Maw]
    [X] [Pillars of Creation]
    [x]Azure Moon
    [X] Fierce Vigor
    [x]A Thousand Cuts
    [x]Pillars of Creation
    [X] [A Thousand Cuts] - 7 Arete. In the Forebear's grip could even a common knife blaze with fell power. All melee attacks made with the Forebear's Blade now apply cursed wounds. Septuples the power and speed of the Fell-Handed Stroke and allows it to be used with blade projections. Such horrific offensive power allows one to challenge foes vastly stronger.
    [X] [Pitiless Maw] - 7 Arete. A Conjunctional Advancement that requires the Forebear's Blade. How can hunger perish from this world? So long as there is one hungering thing, it will emerge again and again to feast upon this realm of mere phenomena. Passively restore health equal to 100% of the damage you deal in melee combat, and triples the Power of Ruin associated with melee strikes.
    -[X] Total Eclipse
    -[X] Save 3 Options
    [X] Research the Spoils - The pearl, the message, and the scale. Gisena's work is good, but you have your own perspective to add, the insight made possible through long experience and formidable Astral Rank. Though the latter has been somewhat depleted, hampering your efforts on every front, nonetheless it is critical to absorb or acquire whatever strength you can from the fish you spent so dearly to conquer.
    -[X] [Ruling Ring]
    [X] Do Not Spend Arete
    [X] Plan Punch Up
    [X] Total Eclipse
    [X] Brunch
    [X] +Gisena
    [X] Decimator's - Huntress' Moon
    [X] Apocryphal - Direct Mitigation
    [X] Total Eclipse - 25 Arete. The numinous time of sacred transfixion. Night sweeps field and horizon in a thundering advance, halo of the blinkered sun the only residue of day. Twilight's orphaned half-brother, cast aside on the eve of creation and trotted out only for spectacle and occasion. No longer, for the flare of your cloak is this twilight pretender, the liminal glow that precludes day and evening both. Unlocks the [True Quintessence], by which She Who Was The Maiden attained supremacy over the Manifest Realm, and for which the Maiden's successors might one day be anointed.
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Rihaku said:
Current vote count?
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Out of sheer curiosity, why do you ask instead of just pressing the button?

BrainInAJar said:
What the hell do you mean by stifling? Again, we don't need to spend Arete on them until we are ready. Literally the price is the opportunity cost of those 4 Arete; they aren't even lost. We can go right back to spending on things that improve our short-term survival while having the assure of having gamechangers waiting in the wings. Assuring the existence of the long-term is only prudent.
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It's a cost in that we have enough arete now we can probably afford to directly buy a 7 arete option next chance we get to actually spend them. If we burn our stores here we are probably not going to be able to do that. We just barely eeked out buying Evening Sky, and that was with Rihaku showing us pity and giving us time we shouldn't have had.

This is important because at least Cuts and Maws are both massive boosts to survival chances, if we can get them, so we want to get at least one of them next spending proc.

This is exactly what Rihaku warned us not to be greedy and overspend. Thinking like yours is liable to accidentally off us in the short term because you aren't considering our arete generation rate is insufficient to buy a 7 arete option every time it comes up. if it was I'd totally be in your alley.
 
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BrainInAJar said:
Permanently mitigating Decimator for quite a long time is a gamechanger, especially since Huntress' Moon won the vote. Getting legendary artifacts is a gamechanger. making any companions we have immortal is a game changer. Safety, thanks to the Apocryphal Curse, is a gamechanger.

I'd go so far as to say this is the best long-term option as it just solves an incredible amount of our problems; as they say, a lack of weakness is power. And we definetly want all the things on offer.
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The problem is that this is a 25 Arete pick that grants lots of immediate power but limited potential. By limited potential, I don't mean that the enemies spawned won't empower us; I mean that this entire 25 Arete power can be replicated with Total Eclipse, as just one of the many, many powers that Total Eclipse grants. Remember when Seram was offered Inner Sanctum?

Rihaku said:
[ ] Inner Sanctum - Perhaps the character may never go home again. But that does not mean they cannot make one anew. From the soil of their soul the Cursebearer initiates the genesis of a new world, a personal realm of which they are steward and master. A Rune may be emplaced on items the character owns to send them to and summon them from this Realm near-instantaneously. With time and skill, near all aspects of the Inner Sanctum may be shaped to the character's will.
...
*With sufficient time and training, the character may induce the findross of their castle and grounds to produce various unique effects - the generation of food and water, automatic cleansing and repair of facilities, or even more exotic and powerful effects such as armories that replenish the ammunition of weapons placed inside, regenerative hot springs, or a training-room that conjures level-appropriate enemies to battle.
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Now getting the ultimate version of Inner Sanctum would be a large undertaking that would take a long time, maybe cost Arete, and would likely not be as good. But still, why get Pillars when we can get a magic system that can re-create Pillars?

That's the difference between picks that grant potential like Total Eclipse, and picks that grants lots of power right now like Pillars. And my thinking is that I'd rather take the potential-granting pick over the power now pick.
 
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[X] Research the Spoils

Gets us more things. I like more things.

[X] Save 3 Options
[X] [Once And Future]
[X] [Pillars of Creation]
[X] [Azure Moon]

So, I've written about my opinions extensively. Perhaps too much so. My opinions regarding only choosing three options, Once and Future, and Pillars of Creations are well documented. As for Azure Moon, I've decided that investing in three different 25 Arete options is hopelessly optimistic, saving up 75 Arete would take months assuming we don't spend any on anything else, which is not going to happen. And of the 7 Arete options, I like Azure Moon the best. It's very versatile and gets us a new magic system, and as I'm not going for Total Eclipse or Dead by Dreaming I think the cheaper magic system we can get sooner is nice.
 
As an aside, I'm really not liking this tying of powerup options to omake and discussion. It's much better in AST, when our options were ancillary, supporting to the main options (EXP) as opposed to overpowering and far superior.
 
vali said:
The problem is that this is a 25 Arete pick that grants lots of immediate power but limited potential. By limited potential, I don't mean that the enemies spawned won't empower us; I mean that this entire 25 Arete power can be replicated with Total Eclipse, as just one of the many, many powers that Total Eclipse grants. Remember when Seram was offered Inner Sanctum?

Now getting the ultimate version of Inner Sanctum would be a large undertaking that would take a long time, maybe cost Arete, and would likely not be as good. But still, why get Pillars when we can get a magic system that can re-create Pillars?

That's the difference between picks that grant potential like Total Eclipse, and picks that grants lots of power right now like Pillars. And my thinking is that I'd rather take the potential-granting pick over the power now pick.
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To a degree. However, the Curse-mitigating and deific scale aspects of Pillars would be difficult for any reasonable power level of Grace to replicate, and the critical function of Huntress Moon targets may be absent...
 
There's some real middle option bias going on in my opinion. We are not forced to spend future Arete on these immediately, people.

Byzantine said:
It's a cost in that we have enough arete now we can probably afford to directly buy a 7 arete option next chance we get to actually spend them. If we burn our stores here we are probably not going to be able to do that. We just barely eeked out buying Evening Sky, and that was with Rihaku showing us pity and giving us time we shouldn't have had.

This is important because at least Cuts and Maws are both massive boosts to survival chances, if we can get them, so we want to get at least one of them next spending proc.

This is exactly what Rihaku warned us not to be greedy and overspend. Thinking like yours is liable to accidentally off us in the short term because you aren't considering our arete generation rate is insufficient to buy a 7 arete option every time it comes up. if it was I'd totally be in your alley.
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And I think 4 Arete now is a reasonable price for the long-term; even I'm voting for Thousand Cuts now. Given we are exhausted, we should actually avoid fights if it all possible and none of the powers change that. I do think we can pony up 6 Arete for Thousand Cuts in the near-future; maybe not after the next fight, but fast enough to be relevant in the short term.

The very reason Rihaku gave us that extension is that we wouldn't have had time to buy it otherwise, but as long as we make a down-payment here, we can have as much time as we need. We wouldn't need to rush any of this, nor sacrifice other options that would be cool but are only available in the moment. It is a crucial safety net, and I want it for as many powers as possible.
vali said:
The problem is that this is a 25 Arete pick that grants lots of immediate power but limited potential. By limited potential, I don't mean that the enemies spawned won't empower us; I mean that this entire 25 Arete power can be replicated with Total Eclipse, as just one of the many, many powers that Total Eclipse grants. Remember when Seram was offered Inner Sanctum?

Now getting the ultimate version of Inner Sanctum would be a large undertaking that would take a long time, maybe cost Arete, and would likely not be as good. But that's the difference between picks that grant potential like Total Eclipse, and picks that grants lots of power right now like Pillars. And my thinking is that I'd rather take the potential-granting pick over the power now pick.
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We are on a timer thanks to Decimator and don't progress much from training besides. I wouldn't hold out on developing non-combat applications for it. We also need to Hunt, and this would be a pretty good provider.
 
Azure Moon + A Thousand Cuts means we may be able to store cursed wound blade projections. Attack from every direction at once. We've already got 2 ticks of Thick as thieves from Nightmare Praetor, let's get the magic system that benefits from Prep time/Mental Skills/Planning so we can take advantage of it. Might's Repose also enhances our cognition over time.
 
BrainInAJar said:
Sword+Progression was also embedded in the make-up of the options. Unless you want to argue there were no problems with that vote whatsoever?
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It was very-high risk mid-high reward. I'd say it's closer to investing in four different EFBs and hoping we survive and thrive in the interim than it is investing in a solid multiplier with a quick turnaround that will start paying dividends immediately. So the comparison doesn't particularly resonate with me.

BrainInAJar said:
What the hell do you mean by stifling? Again, we don't need to spend Arete on them until we are ready. Literally the price is the opportunity cost of those 4 Arete; they aren't even lost. We can go right back to spending on things that improve our short-term survival while having the assurance of having gamechangers waiting in the wings. Assuring the existence of the long-term is only prudent.
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4 Arete is a very significant sum. We're putting them in the freezer for ages with no guarantee we'll ever reach them. The argument you have to make is that these specific 25 options are so much significantly superior to others we'll find in the future that they're worth investing 25% of our earnings so far this quest into options we'll perhaps never even see.

Consider what a bad position we're currently in merely 4 days into the quest, this a huge part of why I don't agree with going for these long term payoff strats. It's just way too much. Even three at least means you can manage to finish off a 7 cost reasonably soon. Five is simply overreach in my view.
 
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BrainInAJar said:
Please save for Pillars if you are saving for anything people. We choose Hunting mitigation; if we want to guarantee the safety of the Human Sphere from ourselves, getting options to improve that is critical.
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We'll buy that anyway. Doesn't matter the cost, we'd buy it if it cost us 40 Arete. There are greedy picks, and then there are picks that make you greedy just looking at them. It's not really a game-changer, but it feels like it is. This appeals to those of us who want the playstyle to change relatively soon, even if that's not a likely outcome because of its high price-tag. Those who feel invested in our current path also like it, as it would ease our trajectory straight into the mouth of an Apocryphal proc while crushingly exhausted. Again this is unlikely to help because of how far-off it is.

It's a good pick, but more importantly it's an attractive one. It appeals on a purely unrealistic emotional level, the same way a mirage of water appeals to men dying of thirst.

...more to the point, we're reaching critical buyer's remorse on low-end Arete point expenses. If I put points into them, the odds we'll actually take them remain greater than nil.
 
There is a reason I'm spending so much energy arguing for the short term even though I'd personally prefer to be playing the long term too.

We are going to die if we keep playing for the long term. We've made too many medium to long term picks in a row and are currently crippled as a result of being injured and Exhausted.

Once we get exhausted out of the way I'll back off on it, but until then I'm going to be arguing tooth and nail that we need to focus on the short term for everything, including actions and Arete expenditure.
 
[X] Sleep In
[X] Save 3 Options
[X] [A Thousand Cuts]
[X] [Pitiless Maw]
[X] [Once And Future]

Between Maw and Thousand Cuts we'd be getting 21 times increase of power so that should be fun. Getting those two plus one of Ring/Once and Future/Eclipse sounds like the way to go.
 
Maw basically means that anything that doesn't kill or further cripple us mid fight can be shrugged off. Like the stab wound we got from the last fight. It would have healed completely when we proceeded to beat the pirate to death. Anyone who has ever played a video game with life drain healing can understand why this is a must-have.

It wouldn't surprise me things on this line can eventually start to restore Hunger's crippling injuries.
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
It was very-high risk mid-high reward. I'd say it's closer to investing in four different EFBs and hoping we survive and thrive in the interim than it is investing in a solid multiplier with a quick turnaround that will start paying dividends immediately. So the comparison doesn't particularly resonate with me.
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lol, how cheeky

If we want a quick turnaround, we don't need this vote at all, is my point. Literally every single Progression vote so far gave us an immediate power and safety option. It's basically squandering the option given. Literally the statement given as to why we were given this option:
Rihaku said:
Long-Term Planning! A form of advanced coordination so that you can actually buy the EFB-equivalents you want!
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So I'd actually recommend to pick at least one EFB this vote, preferably Pillars.
Box Lunch said:
We'll buy that anyway. Doesn't matter the cost, we'd buy it if it cost us 40 Arete. There are greedy picks, and then there are picks that make you greedy just looking at them. It's not really a game-changer, but it feels like it is. This appeals to those of us who want the playstyle to change relatively soon, even if that's not a likely outcome because of its high price-tag. Those who feel invested in our current path also like it, as it would ease our trajectory straight into the mouth of an Apocryphal proc while crushingly exhausted. Again this is unlikely to help because of how far-off it is.

It's a good pick, but more importantly it's an attractive one. It appeals on a purely unrealistic emotional level, the same way a mirage of water appeals to men dying of thirst.

...more to the point, we're reaching critical buyer's remorse on low-end Arete point expenses. If I put points into them, the odds we'll actually take them remain greater than nil.
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Then just choose the option and spare us the salt later if we miss it. Even if you only want one pick, pick that. We will be offered more immediate power options after the next fight for sure. if you are so concerned about dying in the immediate yet fear the emotions elicited by Pillars, then pick it as the single option to assuage them while preserving as much Arete as we can for the next fight. Then, if our mitigation really troubles us, we can just buy it.
Thomasfoolery said:
4 Arete is a very significant sum. We're putting them in the freezer for ages with no guarantee we'll ever reach them. The argument you have to make is that these specific 25 options are so much significantly superior to others we'll find in the future that they're worth investing 25% of our earnings so far this quest into options we'll perhaps never even see.

Consider what a bad position we're currently in merely 4 days into the quest, this a huge part of why I don't agree with going for these long term payoff strats. It's just way too much. Even three at least means you can manage to finish off a 7 cost reasonably soon. Five is simply overreach in my view.
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Byzantine said:
There is a reason I'm spending so much energy arguing for the short term even though I'd personally prefer to be playing the long term too.

We are going to die if we keep playing for the long term. We've made too many medium to long term picks in a row and are currently crippled as a result of being injured and Exhausted.

Once we get exhausted out of the way I'll back off on it, but until then I'm going to be arguing tooth and nail that we need to focus on the short term for everything, including actions and Arete expenditure.
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No spending option will make us not Exhausted; it is not by not spending Arete here we will be safer from Apocryphal triggering; all these nice upgrades only matter until after the fight. Until then we can have infinite Arete and still die. So I wouldn't concern myself with spending here, we are past that point, it won't do anything.
 
I mean, Maw is of somewhat questionable value. We've already seen good healing for 2 Arete; for 5 more you get better combat relevant healing, but that is a high price indeed. What makes it somewhat worth it, however, is that it also boosts our power of Ruin.
 
Shard said:
As an aside, I'm really not liking this tying of powerup options to omake and discussion. It's much better in AST, when our options were ancillary, supporting to the main options (EXP) as opposed to overpowering and far superior.
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EFB ended successfully, and AST did not, so we're using EFB's system. That said, though the system has been nearly transposed wholesale, there are substantial differences - you've been offered Arete almost every single vote option this week, so the amount of Arete Hunger generates himself can be substantial if you choose. Nor do you really need 25 Arete options to win if you are prudent, intelligent, and use the power of Progression to scale strategically.

BrainInAJar said:
We are on a timer thanks to Decimator and don't progress much from training besides. I wouldn't hold out on developing non-combat applications for it. We also need to Hunt, and this would be a pretty good provider.
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Would it not be better to reserve the game of Pillars until you've reached some degree of depletion from natural targets? That way you won't invoke Curse-based efficacy degradation until you need to.

Conjured Blade said:
Azure Moon + A Thousand Cuts means we may be able to store cursed wound blade projections. Attack from every direction at once. We've already got 2 ticks of Thick as thieves from Nightmare Praetor, let's get the magic system that benefits from Prep time/Mental Skills/Planning so we can take advantage of it. Might's Repose also enhances our cognition over time.
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Yeah, it would be a good opportunity to help convert your Intelligence into combat power while gaining access to healing at the same time.

Box Lunch said:
It's a good pick, but more importantly it's an attractive one. It appeals on a purely unrealistic emotional level, the same way a mirage of water appeals to men dying of thirst.
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Lots of power, lots of problems! But there are ways to resolve both at once...

Byzantine said:
There is a reason I'm spending so much energy arguing for the short term even though I'd personally prefer to be playing the long term too.

We are going to die if we keep playing for the long term. We've made too many medium to long term picks in a row and are currently crippled as a result of being injured and Exhausted.
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Hm... Evening Sky is certainly greedier than El Stats, but much less greedy than Conclusion. Still, the fish thing was probably unnecessary given the level of risk-reward involved. But an amusing update!

Wolfy said:
[X] Sleep In
[X] Save 3 Options
[X] [A Thousand Cuts]
[X] [Pitiless Maw]
[X] [Once And Future]

Between Maw and Thousand Cuts we'd be getting 21 times increase of power so that should be fun. Getting those two plus one of Ring/Once and Future/Eclipse sounds like the way to go.
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Only if the Power of Ruin represents 100% of your damage!
 
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