If we pick 5 we're just going to languish in the doldrums for ages. It means we'll need to generate more than double what we've acquired throughout the entire quest to finish even one choice. While also being completely depleted in the near term and unable to respond to any opportunities.

Even picking one and going for a 25 is very risky. We'd still need to generate 20 more in that scenario. Meanwhile if we go with one and a seven we could potentially have it in operation by next update or the one after, and be doing work for us for the many updates we'd otherwise be struggling.

I think it's certainly too early to eschew all near term advancement.
 
Pitiless Maw is a passive heal based upon the damage we deal with melee. It is not lifesteal as stated, it just heals at the same rate.
I'm talking about lifeleech in the Path of Exile context i.e you recover health proportional to a percentage of damage dealt. Not that we're literally stealing their life energy. Although for all we know that could be how it works in the narrative.

Yep. It's definitely a to-get option in the short term. I'm just trying to figure out if it should be priority 2 or 3. (1 is A Thousand Cuts, we need better offense).
If we're taking thousand cuts we should definitely take pitiless maw and vice versa. They have too much synergy with each other to ignore. Pitiless maw eliminates the weakness of focusing too heavily on dps and thousand cuts provides 7 times our strength in damage output to convert into healing.
 
For the sake of the Tally can people please all use the same vote format? The current Tally is basically illegible.
 
Current vote count? We won't be using Plans for this, the individually most popular / argument-supported options will win the vote.

The last two are there just because they're good. Once and Furure King is the equivalent of a pure power EFB, while Ruling RIng is more of Progression/power Hybrid. Both are good, buoth are thing I want huger to have, but they are less essential than the above two. They'd still be a worthy goal to pursue.

They're both hybrids to a degree, as Once and Future grants implicit scaling via the nature of the Rank system at high+

Note that this is part one of a series. It also gives information portaining to the eventual goal of this quest. And it's really strong in general. Might be worth reserving.

It ain't flashy, but it gets the job done!

Oh hey now we can have that other magic system we missed out on. Super versatile, and we know it can lead to mitigation options, but it's a bit anti-synergistic with our playstyle. I really want this but it's maybe not as essential as other options.

Versatility is underrated I think. You want healing? This can do that. Utility? Your current moves are mostly variants of Sword Hit Good. You guys gave up King of Thieves to pursue the magus path, this is one of the best magical systems you could gain access to in the short to medium term unless you want to take a pure potential-based 25 Arete like Total Eclipse.
 
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Anyone who was critical or has reservations about Hunting mitigation should consider voting for Pillars; if you think we can only afford one option, pick that. It resolves the Affliction at least in the medium term by guaranteeing procs for a while. It gives immortality for our companions, and finally heals the arm, eye and lung we are missing. That's so much shit solved in only one option. It is the very definition of a good long-term investment as it synergises with the options we already chose.

If we pick 5 we're just going to languish in the doldrums for ages. It means we'll need to generate more than double what we've acquired throughout the entire quest to finish even one choice. While also being completely depleted in the near term and unable to respond to any opportunities.

Even picking one and going for a 25 is very risky. We'd still need to generate 20 more in that scenario. Meanwhile if we go with one and a seven we could potentially have it in operation by next update or the one after, and be doing work for us for the many updates we'd otherwise be struggling.

I think it's certainly too early to eschew all near term advancement.
Selecting an option ensures it will be a valid choice in future build votes, even if not directly shown, and won't disappear or increase in cost due to time constraints or the purchase of accompanying baseline options.
The options don't force us to spend on them; they just guarantee their availability. We don't need to put Arete on them until we think we're ready.
 
I'm not good at long, detailed arguments bringing up a lot of points. I meander, talk in circles, etc. But still.

If we keep Exhausted for any longer than absolutely required it is going to kill us. Rihaku has made that very clear. Both with author comments and in the chapters themselves. This means that we should take every option to mitigate it as soon as possible, before Apocryphal curse procs and kills us. Because we cannot take what it will throw at us weakened like this. Taking any other option is just throwing your arms in the air and praying apocryphal doesn't strike yet. Naturally that is as good as taunting it. The more certain we are we are safe from it the more certain I am we'll be taking it to the face within the week.

Current vote count? We won't be using Plans for this, the individually most popular / argument-supported options will win the vote.
I'll post it, but it's illegible.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Byzantine on May 30, 2020 at 2:40 AM, finished with 37 posts and 13 votes.
 
Anyone who was critical or has reservations about Hunting mitigation should consider voting for Pillars; if you think we can only afford one option, pick that. It resolves the Affliction at least in the medium term by guaranteeing procs for a while. It gives immortality for our companions, and finally heals the arm, eye and lung we are missing. That's so much shit solved in only one option. It is the very definition of a good long-term investment as it synergises with the options we already chose.



The options don't force us to spend on them; they just guarantee their availability. We don't need to put Arete on them until we think we're ready.
Total Eclipse is just better. The maidens graces included bullshit like true resurrection and power granting, and those were the watered down versions sorceress' got!

I'm not good at long, detailed arguments bringing up a lot of points. I meander, talk in circles, etc. But still.

If we keep Exhausted for any longer than absolutely required it is going to kill us. Rihaku has made that very clear. But with author comments and in the chapters themselves. This means that we should take every option to mitigate it as soon as possible, before Apocryphal curse procs and kills us. Because we cannot take what it will throw at us weakened like this.
I'm assuming that exhausted will go away on it's own after a couple of days or at least downgrade to tired. Besides not being able to use rank at the moment doesn't matter if we're in the robot that has it's own rank!
 
Azure moon is the weakest 7 arete option since it gives no immediate benefit and we're bad at training things because of hunger, so it'll be a while before it's useful.


Why did Rihaku saying it was more useful than the poster thought make you switch away from it?

I was in Total Eclipse for Souping up Gisena. If it's not the only route I'm in the mood to experiment. And I am well aware of that for Azure Moon. Honestly though? I want Feruchemy, Homestuckesque alchemy action, etc, on almost the same level people here seem to want a Gisena Route. Not to mention the Utility effects Rihaku already mentioned.

Edit: And it gets us started on being Twice-Great in the literal sense of knowing two magic systems.
 
I'm assuming that exhausted will go away on it's own after a couple of days or at least downgrade to tired. Besides not being able to use rank at the moment doesn't matter if we're in the robot that has it's own rank!
We have been explicitly told that is not the case. It will persist until we get a full day's rest. Sleeping in lets us take the first step to downgrading it.
 
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For the sake of the Tally can people please all use the same vote format? The current Tally is basically illegible.
You can merge votes together in the tally settings. I'll give it a go here.
Adhoc vote count started by Thomasfoolery on May 30, 2020 at 2:44 AM, finished with 42 posts and 13 votes.
 
[ ] [A Thousand Cuts] - 7 Arete. In the Forebear's grip could even a common knife blaze with fell power. All melee attacks made with the Forebear's Blade now apply cursed wounds. Septuples the power and speed of the Fell-Handed Stroke and allows it to be used with blade projections. Such horrific offensive power allows one to challenge foes vastly stronger.

Our current Evening Sky gives us good defense and endurance, allowing us to wear down our enemies. Empowering a highly draining ability like Fell-Handed Stroke is anti-synergistic, since it reduces our ability to exhaust and outlast our enemies.

Our best ability right now is Evening Sky, anything we pick must synergize with it, or at least not actively work against it.

Don't save.

[ ] [Iron Curtain] - 7 Arete. The Forebear could not be dissuaded, nor could he be stopped. To dissent was folly, to resist was death. The laws of the Forebear were as natural law, and just as inevitable. When active, ++Willpower, +++Protection, ++Constitution, Ignore Wounds, Deflect Exotic Attacks. Become Tired afterwards.

We already have some protection from exotic attacks thanks to Evening Sky. Also, this tires us out. Not bad, but not good either.

Don't save.

[ ] [Once And Future] I - 25 Arete. Channel a fraction of the Forebear's true might, and glimpse a small fraction of his true history. +1 Astral Rank, applied externally after all other factors. Does not raise the difficulty of improving Rank. +2 Astral Rank in matters military.

Astral Rank is hyper-exponential, meaning that as we become more powerful this ability becomes more powerful as well. Useful, especially since powerup's likely become much, much harder later on. ALSO it comes with a story hook, and while there may be other opportunities to get this story hook I don't think we should assume that this will be the case.

Solid candidate for saving.

[ ] [Pitiless Maw] - 7 Arete. A Conjunctional Advancement that requires the Forebear's Blade. How can hunger perish from this world? So long as there is one hungering thing, it will emerge again and again to feast upon this realm of mere phenomena. Passively restore health equal to 100% of the damage you deal in melee combat, and triples the Power of Ruin associated with melee strikes.

Great synergy wtih Evening Sky. The combo of Evening Sky defense + passive healing + inflicting unhealable wounds makes this a powerful asset, since as long as we can hurt our enemy we can slowly wear them down while healing ourserlves. That said, I think we'd be better off saving for a 25 point option.

Decent candidate for saving.

[ ] [Dead But Dreaming] - 25 Arete. That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons... Death merely induces slumber in the wearer until the heavens align for his emergence once more. Gain access to the [Outer Sorcery] skill, by which means one's dreams may twist reality towards one's purposes. Apply the effects of To Shatter Heaven to [Outer Sorcery].

Not worth it. We're on a time limit, so being able to come back from death is only useful if we can come back quickly. Outer Sorcery is interesting, but in comparison to the other options here I'm skeptical that it's worth the high price.

Don't save.

[ ] [Ruling Ring] - 25 Arete. There can only be one Ruling Ring. Enormously increases the strength, range, and control of the [Ring of Power] effect. ++All Stats, ++Progression.

++Progression is the god-stat. The stat bonus is nice. An also, it empowers our ablity to "bearer's will upon the world, bending it to his designs", meaing that we basically get something similiar to Outer Sorcery in the bargin. I think either this or Once and Future should be our first 25 point pick.

Again, ++Progression is the best. So few words, so much power.

Solid candidate for saving.

[ ] [Azure Moon] - 7 Arete. That which reigns resplendent once in a blue aeon. The wearer gains access to his true [Soul Evocation], [Imprisoner], and high-grade talent in its use. Power as this may be, recall that the use of Soul Evocations requires extensive technical study which will be difficult to perform under the constraints of Hunger. However the potential benefits are enormous enough that it may be worth pursuing even at a mortal's pace.

This is a bit of a mystery box option. The two skills it gives aren't described, are empowered but not to the extent of Shattered Heaven like outer sorcery, and it's explicitly stated to synergize poorly with hunger. I'm curious, but not 7 Arete curious.

Don't save.

[ ] Total Eclipse - 25 Arete. The numinous time of sacred transfixion. Night sweeps field and horizon in a thundering advance, soft halo of the blinkered sun the residue of day. Twilight's orphaned half-brother, cast aside on the eve of creation and trotted out only for spectacle and occasion. No longer, for the flare of your cloak is this twilight pretender, the liminal glow that precludes day and evening both. Unlocks the [True Quintessence], by which She Who Was The Maiden attained supremacy over the Manifest Realm, and for which the Maiden's successors might one day be anointed.

So it's been a while but I believe the Maiden would be the progenerator of Gisena's magic system, meaning we'd be able to empower her with Findross, make other women into sorceresses, and do other crazy things.

I think interest in picking this will depend somewhat on how much you like Gisena. Given that the Maiden used this to become a god it's clear that this is no minor power, and given the wide variety of abilities we saw in both Seram and the other women there is quite a bit of flexibility here.

Decent candidate for saving.

[ ] [Pillars of Creation] - 25 Arete. At the end of each lunar month, wearer and companions may steal away to the realm of Evening, during which no time passes in the mortal world. Divine opulence and every conceivable luxury await the fortunate interlopers, restoring wholeness of mind, body, and spirit.

What makes this stand out is how flexible it is. It provides us enemies to fight and feed our hunger, it could provide Gisena Findross, it heals, it gives us time to plot and plan, it provides all sorts of powerups. But for 25 points we need something more, something special and game changing. A new paradigm. And this isn't it.

Don't save
 
I was in Total Eclipse for Souping up Gisena. If it's not the only route I'm in the mood to experiment. And I am well aware of that for Azure Moon. Honestly though? I want Feruchemy, Homestuckesque alchemy action, etc, on almost the same level people here seem to want a Gisena Route. Not to mention the Utility effects Rihaku already mentioned.
The maiden probably had a power for that. She seemed to have one for everything else. Going by sorceress graces quintessence is a crazy adaptable magic system.

We have been explicitly told that is not the case. It will persist until we get a full day's rest. Sleeping in let's us take the first step to downgrading it.
Really? Well even so if we need a full days rest I'd prefer to just do it all at once than take a bite out of it now.
 
Really? Well even so if we need a full days rest I'd prefer to just do it all at once than take a bite out of it now.
That is exactly my plan. I am going to do everything in my power to beg and threaten people into voting for the rest options this entire day. Because Rihaku has decided to be mean and offer it piecemeal to make it a harder sell. (Curse you!!!! [in the nicest possible way]).

This is, of course, designed to tempt us into committing suicide by grabbing the shiny option and ignoring the one that furthers immediate survival. As has been said before, this is Praxis all over again. It should be obvious by this point that Rihaku enjoys offering shiny trap options and seeing if we can stop overselves from walking into them.
 
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Our current Evening Sky gives us good defense and endurance, allowing us to wear down our enemies. Empowering a highly draining ability like Fell-Handed Stroke is anti-synergistic, since it reduces our ability to exhaust and outlast our enemies.

This isn't the case, Thousand cuts main downside is it's not great against mobs which Evening covers. While Evening doesn't have good striking power against elites and will get worn down if it can't inflict significant blows against its opponent. They cover each others shortcomings.
 
We have to put down a down payment on each of them.
I think four Arete for making four EFBs available is a fair price. We don't even lose them. This vote is literally for long-term planning; picking one option that we can finish quickly literally goes against the purpose of this vote. It is for guaranteeing the options we want are still there. So you should at least put your one choice as an EFB and choose more powerups after battle, Progression still needs EXP, after all. I think we should guarantee access to has many EFBs as we can; because that's how we win the game. They are all game changers, we want as many of those as possible.
What makes this stand out is how flexible it is. It provides us enemies to fight and feed our hunger, it could provide Gisena Findross, it heals, it gives us time to plot and plan, it provides all sorts of powerups. But for 25 points we need something more, something special and game changing. A new paradigm. And this isn't it.
Permanently mitigating Decimator for quite a long time is a gamechanger, especially since Huntress' Moon won the vote. Getting legendary artifacts is a gamechanger. making any companions we have immortal is a game changer. Safety, thanks to the Apocryphal Curse, is a gamechanger.

I'd go so far as to say this is the best long-term option as it just solves an incredible amount of our problems; as they say, a lack of weakness is power. And we definetly want all the things on offer.

@Byzantine Vote for my crazy Arete plan and I'll vote for Sleep In.
 
Analysis of Arete options part 2:

So, based on my last post, I've eliminated from the running... only two of the options. Iron Curtain and Azure Moon. I hate to put Azure Moon out of the running, but we're going to have to cut good things and Azure Moon has that anti-synergy. Now, on to an analysis of the pros/cons of the rest. I will be assuming a three-choice plan, as I still think five choices is too greedy. Nameless only finished a couple of EFBs over the course of the entire quest, and our Arete generation is lower then EFB's BP generation. Spending Arete for options we'll never get around to taking is just about the worst thing we could do in this quest.

A Thousand Cuts and Pitiless Maw: I'm counting these together because they synergize and aren't worth taking unless taken together. When combined they provide high grade offense and life steal for 14 Arete.
Pros: Covers the holes in our build regarding offense and healing. Only costs 14 Arete, compared to everything else on the list which takes 25 (I eliminated the other 7 Arete options). As it's a combination of two purchases it can be bought one part at a time and thus get us part of the power early.
Cons: Takes up two reserve slots. If we're spending 14 Arete why not save up 11 more and get one of the EFBs, which are more cost-effective. Takes away two slots from 25 Arete options, which are all hard to pass up. We can get cheaper healing and offense perks.

Once and Future
Pros: Very strong in general, gives possibly important lore which is relevant to our character.
Cons: None. OK, it takes up a reserve slot and 1 Arete, but all the options do.

Dead but Dreaming
Pros: New magic system, faster progression within that system. New magic system requires sleeping, but we don that anyway because we have perks for it. Come back from the dead.
Cons: None.

Ruling Ring
Pros: Better Progression is better everything. Ring of Power shenanigans. All stats boost. May be the best 25 Arete option in the long term. Potentially allows us to outscale the Apocryphal Curse.
Cons: Takes time to pay off once we get it. Doesn't add any new abilities.

Total Eclipse
Pros: New Magic system, get sorcery. Power up Gisena. Getting something for Gisena is vital if we want to take her with us long term. Maiden was OP, we can be like her but better because Progression.
Cons: Wafuism None

Pillars of Creation
Pros: Decimator Mitigation. Level Grinding. Quality of Life. Trigger it to get a week in time stop right before a major fight. Good for companions.
Cons: Requires planning to reach full potential.


Now, let's talk combinations. Dead but Dreaming and Total Eclipse both grant new magic systems, I'd say we don't want both of them because that spreads our focus too wide, learning two different new magic systems that don't seem to combine well together. Ruling Ring and Pillars of Creation both offer improved growth, but there's no reason not to take both of them. Maw/Cuts combo is cheap and good for our general combat abilities, but cuts down on the 25 Arete options.

Overall, I think Once and Future is essential. It goes well with everything, and gets us lore that is important to Hunger. Also, it's part one of a series. Getting part one means the future parts will also necessarily be available. It's not reserving one EFB, it's reserving multiple!

I think Pillars of Creation is also essential, it just does too many different things which are all great.

That leaves us with the third slot. That third slot could be Total Eclipse for Gisena and power, Dead but Dreaming for get-out-of-death-free card and new magic, or Ruling Ring for across the board everything. Maw/Cuts takes two slots and I'm completely unwilling to drop Pillars or Once and Future.

...Whew, I think I'm done for now. Anyone else have any thoughts?
 
@Rihaku , does sleep in 'permanently' downgrade exhausted to mostly exhausted, or will it return to exhausted after this day?

I would usually assume the former, but the phrasing of "...your Astral Rank for the day." has me paranoid.
 
@Byzantine Vote for my crazy Arete plan and I'll vote for Sleep In.
But you're saving 5 options! That is clearly a trap. Just as much as not choosing Sleep in is!

...I'm willing to do it, but can I talk you down to only selecting three? I don't believe anything on the list is at risk of going away any time soon. And spending 5 arete (1 each) on the effects delays us getting a 7 arete effect that much longer.
 
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[X] Sleep In
[X] Save 5 Options
[X] [A Thousand Cuts]
[X] [Pitiless Maw]
[X] [Once And Future]
[X] [Ruling Ring]
[X] [Pillars of Creation]


Dropping True Quintessence since it's not the only way to empower Gisena.
 
I think four Arete for making four EFBs available is a fair price. We don't even lose them. This vote is literally for long-term planning; picking one option that we can finish quickly literally goes against the purpose of this vote. It is for guaranteeing the options we want are still there. So you should at least put your one choice as an EFB and choose more powerups after battle, Progression still needs EXP, after all. I think we should guarantee access to has many EFBs as we can; because that's how we win the game. They are all game changers, we want as many of those as possible.

These aren't the only EFBs in the sea.We might not find these specific ones again but we'll find others eventually. That's the magic of progression, but we have to live to do that. It also clearly does not go against the purpose of it considering there's an option to do just that embedded in the makeup of the vote options.

We win the game by multipliers, EFBs are great multipliers but they're also irrelevant until we get them. Completely stifling our Arete based early game multipliers does not seem like the best strategy to me. I very easily can envision the increased gains we get from a single 7 cost implemented soon being more significant to our eventual victory than a 25 cost we get in 18 updates rather than 24.
 
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