[X] Once and Future I
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Tyrant_Rayne
Probably Not Evil… Maybe
- Location
- Canada
I don't know if this has been mentioned before but with OaF we would have the rank necessary for another stance slot. With this buying ADS piecemeal is a lot easier. Since we could only equip 3 stances before it was considered better to just get ADS all at once so as not to not give up any benefits from the stance(s) we would have to turn off. If you guys just want apoc mitigation we could buy Magic-Defeating Stance after OaF. After that it would be a lot easier to convince the thread to spend another 7 Arete for the full EFB.
Rihaku
The Internet
Current vote count?
There are a variety of Supreme Enclosure targets that can be attempted for Hunger's first summon... while it doesn't offer anything like discrete selection, Hunger can aim for beings that are weaker or as-powerful in Astral Rank, and will typically (but not always ) receive something useful to his current circumstances. With ADS, the space of summonable creatures that Hunger would find biddable or controllable would be considerably larger, as he'd have higher stats relative to his Rank, while with OaF he'd really be going only for brute force with the hope that they're compatible. The more Rank constitutes his primary strength, the less reliable a full-power Enclosure is going to be, relatively speaking... especially with the potential intervention of the Apocryphal Curse looming!
There are a variety of Supreme Enclosure targets that can be attempted for Hunger's first summon... while it doesn't offer anything like discrete selection, Hunger can aim for beings that are weaker or as-powerful in Astral Rank, and will typically (but not always ) receive something useful to his current circumstances. With ADS, the space of summonable creatures that Hunger would find biddable or controllable would be considerably larger, as he'd have higher stats relative to his Rank, while with OaF he'd really be going only for brute force with the hope that they're compatible. The more Rank constitutes his primary strength, the less reliable a full-power Enclosure is going to be, relatively speaking... especially with the potential intervention of the Apocryphal Curse looming!
- Location
- Pindorama
I think I would be fine summoning something at "merely" 8.0~8.1 Rank if we go Once and Future; that's plenty enough power, especially if we get a more utility focused summon instead of another combatant. The power given by Once and Future is compensation enough, and they would still be likely more powerful summons than if we went with A-DS anyway. Enclosure would be very far from unworkable if we got once and Future, really.
>Memeing about ADS anti-synergy right after the GM explains its synergy
Is it the rumoured meta-anti-synergy?
Is it the rumoured meta-anti-synergy?
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Tyrant_Rayne
Probably Not Evil… Maybe
- Location
- Canada
Seriously what happened to all the voyage voters?
- Location
- Pindorama
That it has a certain synergy with a specific spell we have doesn't mean it would be overall synergistic with the choices we actually made. If A-DS wins Breach feels like an extremely pointless choice. Wow, Exalted Spirit, very cool and definitely what we need right at this moment.
But I suppose we haven't let many of our past actions guide our future actions before, so why start now? This just feels so pointless. The bait feels so weak this time, and yet so many people are biting it. I can't understand. I can't understand it at all.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
The exact words for Once and Future were
Those are extremely specific qualifiers. Once and Future gambles that we can draw the Lord Protector out from hideyhole XYZ or find and attack him there before he can summon a monster that attacks our rank.
- Location
- Pindorama
What, versus the literally nothing of A-DS? That it gives us the advantage as long as we perform the actions the Lord Protector option tries to do anyway is much better than not being advantaged against him in any way. A-DS doesn't actually makes us better at fighting him than Once and Future unless we spend even more picks and Arete to compensate, and it's contesting him in an area the Lord Protector is much more advantaged in thanks to his character archetype.
Please, let's just focus on the things we are actually good at and have already precommited to doing. You don't win by playing your opponent's game, and A-DS is exactly that. Hitting him with overwhelming might and giving him no time to prepare is in fact how we should be fighting him; not trying to outsmart a mastermind archetype. We win if we do what we're good at, so let's choose the option that directly boosts this.
We can get ADS whenever. We can't get OaF whenever.
OaF is culmination of our build we started with CP(well, Flare). ADS is not.
We went out of our way to buff OaF by getting Crown, Tears etc. We didn't enhance in any special way.
OaF also gets us Winter King. ADS doesn't.
The single argument ADS side is making is muh mental stat, which is dumb as shit. Increasing quality of decision making is not some kind of holy grail; it can directly compared to value generated by simply becoming overwhelmingly more powerful, as being plain stronger means vastly greater quality of choices one an take. Basically, being able to extract high value from mediocre choices is not automatically better than being able to extract mediocre value from powerful choices.
The most important thing is that we can get ADS whenever. If, in two updates time, we run into Lord Protector, we can just snap pick ADS. We can't snap pick OaF.
OaF is culmination of our build we started with CP(well, Flare). ADS is not.
We went out of our way to buff OaF by getting Crown, Tears etc. We didn't enhance in any special way.
OaF also gets us Winter King. ADS doesn't.
The single argument ADS side is making is muh mental stat, which is dumb as shit. Increasing quality of decision making is not some kind of holy grail; it can directly compared to value generated by simply becoming overwhelmingly more powerful, as being plain stronger means vastly greater quality of choices one an take. Basically, being able to extract high value from mediocre choices is not automatically better than being able to extract mediocre value from powerful choices.
The most important thing is that we can get ADS whenever. If, in two updates time, we run into Lord Protector, we can just snap pick ADS. We can't snap pick OaF.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
It looks like we have entered 'the posters voting for the other option are idiots' phase of the vote. Chill, guys.
Also, from the vote power maximizing standpoint, it is much better to repudiate an option at its best interpretation, than to select an interpretation that asserts their inherent inferiority.
Also, from the vote power maximizing standpoint, it is much better to repudiate an option at its best interpretation, than to select an interpretation that asserts their inherent inferiority.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
My vote's still for sale to anybody who doesn't already owe me markers. Discounted now. 1 Vote 1 Veto.
Yeah, even ignoring Winter King, OaF is especially huge qualitative change right now. We go from Mid to High General Rank (7.9-8.5), from Mid Combat Rank to upper scale of High Combat Rank(7.9-9.5) and our Bloodcasting gets over Rank 10.
In comparison, Rank 8 Combat is somewhat weaker than Grand Solipist while Rank 9 can beat a Titan. We'd go from sub-GS to being vastly stronger than a Titan.
Tyrant_Rayne
Probably Not Evil… Maybe
- Location
- Canada
Meh I'll take it. Although I would like to add a stipulation that you can't use it to make me vote against Renaissance Woman.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Magical_Duck
The One Who Quacks
- Location
- A Pond
- Pronouns
- Duck
[X] Outer Darkness
"QUACK"
"QUACK"
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
The Lord Protector is a devotee of Claungmor or whatever his name is, lord of smoke and toil. What are the odds there'll be a Claungmor pick with Praxis applicable benefits?
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
1615 Words
Man, work this week hit me with a vengeance. Here at the 24 hour mark, it seems like there should be some Devil's advocacy starting up. One way to do that is to provide a side-by-side comparison of the vote options. I think that staying in the Voyaging Realm deserves a closer contest than a 2:1 vote ratio!
A quick note about arguments while my vote marker activated: I am contractually obligated to vote for Priority Two. Therefore if I write an analysis supporting The Long Voyage my omake power still grants additional weight to Priority Two.
Tl;DR:
Priority Two steps on the agency of our young friends. Voters should think about why they might not be eager to return to being a child soldier / cling to a lost childhood. Hunger, in particular, should respect their choices because they are very close to his own ethos of rulership.
Priority Two also leads to a plot where Hunger navigates a network of political tensions. This hasn't been a popular element of the quest so far. There are pressing moral concerns with being a conqueror: are people really eager to be in charge of instigating a galactic war?
The Long Voyage respects our friends' choices. It also guarantees that Hunger will negotiate from a position of strength when we are ready to the Voyaging Realm. Finally, it has +Mental Stability and story time with Hunger.
I think Priority Two has some important character considerations for Hunger: we are voting on a course of action that will have major consequences for the polities that he now rules over. But Priority Two is also a vote about whether Hunger sees Aobaru and Letrizia as equal companions or as wards whose fate he can dictate. I think it is far from obvious that Priority Two is in the best interests of either character.
One of the strongest arguments in favor of Priority Two is the ongoing development of the plot against Letrizia, her father, and their holdings. Hunger, the Veteran, might intuit that the likely events following Letrizia's disappearance with Verschlengorge are likely to be dangerous for her dad. There are some patreon rumors about a challenge he is about to face. The idea, summed up by Orm, is that "when you see a friend about to make a life-ruining mistake, you have one to intervene." Hunger has the advantage of experience over Letrizia and should return her to the Human Realm immediately, despite her stated preferences.
However, this flies in the face of Hunger's own personal ethos of Rule! Hunger has treated his rulership responsibilities as obligations to be delegated. It is hard to fault Letrizia for doing the same. Letrizia herself is in no hurry to return. She says:
Deciding to send Letrizia back to the Human Sphere completely contradicts Hunger's demonstrated philosophy of rule. Demanding that she report for duty as child- soldier is a bit hypocritical given that Hunger has just recently resolved that he has no special obligations to his subjects beyond securing the basic human dignity that everyone is entitled to.
I'll admit that the potential threats against her dad muddles the water. However, this information is not available to non-patrons so it is really difficult for me to engage with. If the threat to Letrizia's dad comes from a coup attempt, then the most likely time for decisive action was soon after Versch disappeared. It's likely that we're rushing back to the Human Sphere but his plot thread has already been resolved one way or another. But I don't know how I can rebut vague mutterings about patron- only content. What I do know is that we just faced a 25% chance of Letrizia death by forgetting that our enemies are proactively trying to kill us. Rushing headlong into the HS plot is not a guarantee of safety for her or her father.
The characterization beat for how Hunger handles Aobaru's training montage has similar implications about Hunger's characterization. Priority Two comments wistfully about Aobaru's "recent childhood" as though taking him to the big city and protecting him from assassins is some kind of wholesome field trip. Aobaru is the chief provider for his family and the chosen one destined to restore the Voyaging Realm itself. Deciding to preserve his "childhood" does Aobaru no favors. It literally infantilizes Aobaru instead of giving him a helping hand into adulthood.
The vote tempts us Voters with the promise of taking control over these characters' narrative arcs. But the promise comes with a cost: it makes both Aobaru and Letrizia bit parts in their own lives. We can have them as friends and allies, or we can have them as surrogate children. I know which one I think will be more interesting to read.
Priority Two vs. The Long Voyage has interesting meta- considerations about the kind of challenges that we are likely to face in the short- to medium- term horizon of the Quest. Priority Two moves the characters into a society that is far larger and more powerful than the individual polities that we have encountered in the VR. A misstep on one planet in the Republic will result in consequences for every Republic world that we visit. The Human Sphere is not a setting where "Cut Through" will be an effective political tactic.
So what this means is that Priority Two points the quest directly at the kind of social situation that makes Doom of the Tyrant considerably more dangerous. Trying to make our fortune in the Human Sphere puts us at the mercy of whoever wants to hire mercenaries. It forces us to develop political allies from a position of weakness: We won't be granted kingship just for killing a monster. Instead we'll have to balance an already tense set of social connections. That hasn't exactly gotten a huge amount of enthusiasm from the Voters so far.
What's worse is that our objective in the Human Sphere will be to start and then profit from a war on the galactic scale. If the thread had problems with the moral implications of .027% life- drain per day, just wait until we hear the casualty numbers from a battle we instigated. Delaying our entrance to the Human Sphere has the considerable benefit of preserving our moral integrity even during a task that mandates death on a scale far beyond what we've been threatened with during the recent Decimator debate.
The alternative course of action is to stay the course a bit longer and continue collecting polities in the Voyaging Realm. We have recruited Adorie, who shields our holdings from the Apocryphal Curse. We have already seen the incredible abilities that can be unlocked from a single magic source in the Sovereignty: Combining the magical knowledge from Nilfel with the magical power of the Elementalists has what I hope are obvious advantages.
Taking The Long Voyage allows Hunger to accumulate a power base of Voyaging Realm societies that can be turned into a powerful military machine. The (inner) Temple of the False Moon had technology above the level we saw in the Sovereignty. Nilfel is undergoing an industrial revolution. Given administrator access to Foremost technology, armies from the Voyaging Realm could erupt into the regular galaxy and make sure that Hunger begins his conquest from a position of power, rather than starting at the bottom of the totem pole and scraping together a coalition.
The blurb for The Long Voyage even hints that we could neutralize or confiscate enemy Armaments. Imagine using Abduction on our enemies' super weapons...
Finally, I want to point out that The Long Voyage comes bundled with +Mental Stability for Hunger, as well as a 3-pick advancement that confers a pretty dramatic situational upgrade. Any time one of our allies gets seriously hurt, we can appropriate their injury and use it as a powerup instead. This is even delivered to us alongside stories about Hunger's half-remembered past. D E E P L O R E
Man, work this week hit me with a vengeance. Here at the 24 hour mark, it seems like there should be some Devil's advocacy starting up. One way to do that is to provide a side-by-side comparison of the vote options. I think that staying in the Voyaging Realm deserves a closer contest than a 2:1 vote ratio!
A quick note about arguments while my vote marker activated: I am contractually obligated to vote for Priority Two. Therefore if I write an analysis supporting The Long Voyage my omake power still grants additional weight to Priority Two.
Tl;DR:
Priority Two steps on the agency of our young friends. Voters should think about why they might not be eager to return to being a child soldier / cling to a lost childhood. Hunger, in particular, should respect their choices because they are very close to his own ethos of rulership.
Priority Two also leads to a plot where Hunger navigates a network of political tensions. This hasn't been a popular element of the quest so far. There are pressing moral concerns with being a conqueror: are people really eager to be in charge of instigating a galactic war?
The Long Voyage respects our friends' choices. It also guarantees that Hunger will negotiate from a position of strength when we are ready to the Voyaging Realm. Finally, it has +Mental Stability and story time with Hunger.
| Option: | Priority Two | The Long Voyage |
| Plot Direction: | A quick path to the Human Sphere, with the expectation that we will get embroiled in that plot immediately. | Assign top priority to Aobaru's new quest, and use Foremost Lore as an asset for the Geas Task |
| Hunger Plot Direction | Debut in the Human Sphere means we will need to network and lay foundations for conquest | Operations in the Voyaging Realm mean consolidating rule, generating military power, and learning how to rule |
| Letrizia Plot: | Letrizia expected to be able to make it to Voyaging City in about another month. As events proceed, the absence of Versch will grow more noticeable. | Letrizia does not really want to go back to being a child soldier. She does want to pursue her research into Rank and elementalism. |
| Aobaru Plot Direction | Aobaru explores cultural ties to the Human Sphere and trains with Hunger | Aobaru rises to the challenge of his destiny and scales with Hunger |
| Aobaru Characterization | "Not long ago he was still a child" | "[Hunger] will see his charge defended" |
| Hunger Characterization towards allies | Protect and manage allies for their own good | Empower allies and assist them with their chosen tasks |
| Hunger Mechanics | Retain True VF | Retain True VF, +Mental Stability, +What Rains May Come |
| Aobaru Mechanics | +Aobaru Power | +Aobaru Power, +Aobaru Progression |
I think Priority Two has some important character considerations for Hunger: we are voting on a course of action that will have major consequences for the polities that he now rules over. But Priority Two is also a vote about whether Hunger sees Aobaru and Letrizia as equal companions or as wards whose fate he can dictate. I think it is far from obvious that Priority Two is in the best interests of either character.
One of the strongest arguments in favor of Priority Two is the ongoing development of the plot against Letrizia, her father, and their holdings. Hunger, the Veteran, might intuit that the likely events following Letrizia's disappearance with Verschlengorge are likely to be dangerous for her dad. There are some patreon rumors about a challenge he is about to face. The idea, summed up by Orm, is that "when you see a friend about to make a life-ruining mistake, you have one to intervene." Hunger has the advantage of experience over Letrizia and should return her to the Human Realm immediately, despite her stated preferences.
However, this flies in the face of Hunger's own personal ethos of Rule! Hunger has treated his rulership responsibilities as obligations to be delegated. It is hard to fault Letrizia for doing the same. Letrizia herself is in no hurry to return. She says:
Gird for Battle said:
Letrizia's stated preferences do not involve a return to the Human Sphere... a reasonable preference given that she was a child soldier:Lion Before Winter said:
Letrizia is not the youngest child soldier, but she is the first one. Her childhood was sacrificed to the Decimator's Affliction not as a desperate attempt to mitigate a drain on her subjects' life energy, but instead as a matter of political expedience.Throne and Alter said:
Deciding to send Letrizia back to the Human Sphere completely contradicts Hunger's demonstrated philosophy of rule. Demanding that she report for duty as child- soldier is a bit hypocritical given that Hunger has just recently resolved that he has no special obligations to his subjects beyond securing the basic human dignity that everyone is entitled to.
I'll admit that the potential threats against her dad muddles the water. However, this information is not available to non-patrons so it is really difficult for me to engage with. If the threat to Letrizia's dad comes from a coup attempt, then the most likely time for decisive action was soon after Versch disappeared. It's likely that we're rushing back to the Human Sphere but his plot thread has already been resolved one way or another. But I don't know how I can rebut vague mutterings about patron- only content. What I do know is that we just faced a 25% chance of Letrizia death by forgetting that our enemies are proactively trying to kill us. Rushing headlong into the HS plot is not a guarantee of safety for her or her father.
The characterization beat for how Hunger handles Aobaru's training montage has similar implications about Hunger's characterization. Priority Two comments wistfully about Aobaru's "recent childhood" as though taking him to the big city and protecting him from assassins is some kind of wholesome field trip. Aobaru is the chief provider for his family and the chosen one destined to restore the Voyaging Realm itself. Deciding to preserve his "childhood" does Aobaru no favors. It literally infantilizes Aobaru instead of giving him a helping hand into adulthood.
The vote tempts us Voters with the promise of taking control over these characters' narrative arcs. But the promise comes with a cost: it makes both Aobaru and Letrizia bit parts in their own lives. We can have them as friends and allies, or we can have them as surrogate children. I know which one I think will be more interesting to read.
Priority Two vs. The Long Voyage has interesting meta- considerations about the kind of challenges that we are likely to face in the short- to medium- term horizon of the Quest. Priority Two moves the characters into a society that is far larger and more powerful than the individual polities that we have encountered in the VR. A misstep on one planet in the Republic will result in consequences for every Republic world that we visit. The Human Sphere is not a setting where "Cut Through" will be an effective political tactic.
So what this means is that Priority Two points the quest directly at the kind of social situation that makes Doom of the Tyrant considerably more dangerous. Trying to make our fortune in the Human Sphere puts us at the mercy of whoever wants to hire mercenaries. It forces us to develop political allies from a position of weakness: We won't be granted kingship just for killing a monster. Instead we'll have to balance an already tense set of social connections. That hasn't exactly gotten a huge amount of enthusiasm from the Voters so far.
What's worse is that our objective in the Human Sphere will be to start and then profit from a war on the galactic scale. If the thread had problems with the moral implications of .027% life- drain per day, just wait until we hear the casualty numbers from a battle we instigated. Delaying our entrance to the Human Sphere has the considerable benefit of preserving our moral integrity even during a task that mandates death on a scale far beyond what we've been threatened with during the recent Decimator debate.
The alternative course of action is to stay the course a bit longer and continue collecting polities in the Voyaging Realm. We have recruited Adorie, who shields our holdings from the Apocryphal Curse. We have already seen the incredible abilities that can be unlocked from a single magic source in the Sovereignty: Combining the magical knowledge from Nilfel with the magical power of the Elementalists has what I hope are obvious advantages.
Taking The Long Voyage allows Hunger to accumulate a power base of Voyaging Realm societies that can be turned into a powerful military machine. The (inner) Temple of the False Moon had technology above the level we saw in the Sovereignty. Nilfel is undergoing an industrial revolution. Given administrator access to Foremost technology, armies from the Voyaging Realm could erupt into the regular galaxy and make sure that Hunger begins his conquest from a position of power, rather than starting at the bottom of the totem pole and scraping together a coalition.
The blurb for The Long Voyage even hints that we could neutralize or confiscate enemy Armaments. Imagine using Abduction on our enemies' super weapons...
Finally, I want to point out that The Long Voyage comes bundled with +Mental Stability for Hunger, as well as a 3-pick advancement that confers a pretty dramatic situational upgrade. Any time one of our allies gets seriously hurt, we can appropriate their injury and use it as a powerup instead. This is even delivered to us alongside stories about Hunger's half-remembered past. D E E P L O R E
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Since I'm backing the Long Voyage too now, if we get Philosopher's Wreath out of Pillars Aobaru will be an utter farking monstrosity growthwise. If Two Progression Pluses is an order of magnitude and Philosopher's Wreath can up to triple Aobaru's Growth rate, he'll be developing... almost as fast as Hunger is right now I bet.
A counterargument - Long Voyage may take long time, which would lead to Letrizia's dad dying. Imagine her getting back to HS and learning that her daddy died while she was procrastinating in Voyaging Realm. Letrizia would be sad 
You don't want to make Letrizia sad, right? Then vote for Priority Two!
You don't want to make Letrizia sad, right? Then vote for Priority Two!
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
We have already indirectly mitigated Tyrant's Doom in an lot of ways, through Inherit the World, Triumphal Gleam and insane amount of charisma and rank that we can modulate, I think we will be fine.
I also think part of the thread has been growing tired of the side quests and Voyaging Realm, it would be nice if we actually get to see the human Sphere in this quest.
I also think part of the thread has been growing tired of the side quests and Voyaging Realm, it would be nice if we actually get to see the human Sphere in this quest.