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A Simple Transaction I

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LordOfMurder said:
Skyveil only allows control of Charisma in 25% chunks so we can't finetune it like that.

World and Gleam don't stop Tyrant procs they just make people not care about what we do during them, which is even more of a mind whammy than super high charisma.
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That was my point, and are you sure that sometimes hitting people with an very heavy mind whammy is worse than hitting them with a merely heavy one all the time. Cause I am really not. Not to mention the fact that with veil we can actually experiment to find out what pushes the tyrant button for us while in disguise. The Halo prevents us from ever having mitigation aside from layered perception filters or a literal physical fortress between us and whomever we are interacting with. That sounds like just as big a problem to me.

25% increments sound perfectly usable to me.
 
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Really? I would have vastly preferred Honing to this. VH is just... So negative. "Mind Controlling everyone I meet is fine, I'll just put a wall between myself and them!" In what world is that a good solution?
 
I recognize that Halo is a very good boost to our combat ability, there is no question about that. The thing is that there are many good picks which increase our combat power. Stances, Tenfold, DA's. We have many choices in how to kill shit better. We however have comparatively few choices for social problems. This is our only chance to take Veil. We have many great options to make up for not taking VH. But if we don't take Veil than we only have sub standard options available to make up for it. There is reason to pursue picks that maker us stronger but if we always pursue these sorts of picks Hunger will end up being a murderhobo forever.
 
Tyrant_Rayne said:
I recognize that Halo is a very good boost to our combat ability, there is no question about that. The thing is that there are many good picks which increase our combat power. Stances, Tenfold, DA's. We have many choices in how to kill shit better. We however have comparatively few choices for social problems. This is our only chance to take Veil. We have many great options to make up for not taking VH. But if we don't take Veil than we only have sub standard options available to make up for it. There is reason to pursue picks that maker us stronger but if we always pursue these sorts of picks Hunger will end up being a murderhobo forever.
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We just have to improve our ability to control our cha, VH just means Hunger decides that nerfing cha isn't the solution it doesn't lock us out from controlling it in other ways.
 
LordOfMurder said:
We just have to improve our ability to control our cha, VH just means Hunger decides that nerfing cha isn't the solution it doesn't lock us out from controlling it in other ways.
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Once again the veil is not a nerf for charisma, it is control of charisma. Control that is not dependent upon somehow getting enough manipulation to control our Silver enhanced charisma. Something far more unlikely than veil working fine.

Also Vanquisher Halo explicitly states that hunger is deciding that his superhuman charisma is not a problem.
 
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LordOfMurder said:
We just have to improve our ability to control our cha, VH just means Hunger decides that nerfing cha isn't the solution it doesn't lock us out from controlling it in other ways.
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We could do the whole song and dance where I argue manipulation would be harder to grind than just taking veil and you say that grinding it would be worth it... but I'll just skip that. In the end I simply want this problem dealt with and immediately. Veil gives us a solution right away and requires generally little effort to improve. We already have so many problems shelved for the future and I don't want to add another. Let's just take care of the issue and focus on other stuff like Praxis or making evening sky not suck.
 
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Zfglx said:
Once again the veil is not a nerf for charisma, it is control of charisma. Control that is not dependent upon somehow getting enough manipulation to control our Silver enhanced charisma. Something far more unlikely than veil working fine.

Also Vanquisher Halo explicitly states that hunger is deciding that his superhuman charisma is not a problem.
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It controls our charisma by nerfing it though? It literally just works by lowering the level of our charisma in 25% increments. VH just means Hunger won't try to lower his cha as a means of controlling it not that he entirely gives up on anything other than blasting cha at full strength.
Tyrant_Rayne said:
We could do the whole song and dance where I argue manipulation would be harder to grind than just taking veil and you say that grinding it would be worth it... but I'll just skip that. In the end I simply want this problem dealt with and immediately. Veil gives us a solution right away and requires generally little effort to improve. We already have so many problems shelved for the future and I don't want to add another. Let's just take care of the issue and focus on other stuff like Praxis or making evening sky not suck.
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Raising manipulation is the obvious solution we've been given to how to control charisma but there could be other ways like specific artifact effects from Gisena, binding a new artifact to our panoply, a defining advancement or even a companion EFB.
 
LordOfMurder said:
It controls our charisma by nerfing it though? It literally just works by lowering the level of our charisma in 25% increments. VH just means Hunger won't try to lower his cha as a means of controlling it not that he entirely gives up on anything other than blasting cha at full strength.
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Yeah but we can set it back as well when we need to as well. In what way is being able to choose where on a scale of 0 to 100% our charisma is, albeit in 25% increments a nerf. Taking it does not make our charisma less effective, it simply lets us choose which setting we want it on for a given encounter. Something that we can and will CHANGE when we need to. In fact it opens up the potential to bluff people by going into an interaction with lower charisma only to release toe full force of our presence at the opportune moment. This will likely open up paths we could not have otherwise found as a result. In what way does that make our charisma less useful instead of more. Also you still are ignoring the stealth and disguise aspects of it as if they do not exist, which they do.

And no raising manipulation is not the obvious solution when skyveil exists and solves the problem completely without having to try and catch up with all our charisma bonuses with pluses to a relatively rarer stat that will as ever be competing with other shinies. I also would rather not have to take a new artifact or defining advancement specifically to address this problem and doesn't SJUC limit us to five total which gives us one slot left after Stranglethorn. This prohlem might be fixable through other methods, but hay does not make those methods easier and more effective than Skyveil.

Also yes manipulation will let us control and actively use our charisma to some degree. I don't think it will let us turn it off, and we have no real image of how it's control of our charisma will manifest. I don't think that relying on something so vaguely defined as of yet is particularly well, reliable.
 
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LordOfMurder said:
It controls our charisma by nerfing it though? It literally just works by lowering the level of our charisma in 25% increments. VH just means Hunger won't try to lower his cha as a means of controlling it not that he entirely gives up on anything other than blasting cha at full strength.
Raising manipulation is the obvious solution we've been given to how to control charisma but there could be other ways like specific artifact effects from Gisena, binding a new artifact to our panoply, a defining advancement or even a companion EFB.
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All of the your solutions are costly though. Being able to find a solution eventually for all our problems through the power of Progression doesn't mean we have to make our problems worse now because we can solve it later. Progression is meaningless when we die due to complications we accrue.

Adding hunting for rare and limited defining advancements, wasting Arete that could be used to level the playing field against the current Apocryphal threat and spending time to develop magics and craft artifacts to solve the ever increasing problem of overwhelming Charisma is not a bonus but a burden on the amount of objectives that we have to complete.

Just please vote for Sky Veil and be done with this problem already.
 
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Zfglx said:
Yeah but we can set it back as well when we need to as well. In what way is being able to choose where on a scale of 0 to 100% our charisma is, albeit in 25% increments a nerf. Taking it does not make our charisma less effective, it simply lets us choose which setting we want it on for a given encounter. Something that we can and will CHANGE when we need to. In fact it opens up the potential to bluff people by going into an interaction with lower charisma only to release toe full force of our presence at the opportune moment. This will likely open up paths we could not have otherwise found as a result. In what way does that make our charisma less useful instead of more. Also you still are ignoring the stealth and disguise aspects of it as if they do not exist, which they do.
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It's a nerf because we're not gaining greater control over our charisma so that we're only directing it where we want which is presumably what we could do with enough manipulation. We're instead just temporarily becoming less charismatic in increments.

SpectatingRaven said:
All of the your solutions are costly though. Being able to find a solution eventually for all our problems through the power of Progression doesn't mean we have to make our problems worse now because we can solve it later. Progression is meaningless when we die due to complications we accrue.

Adding hunting for rare and limited defining advancements, wasting Arete that could be used to level the playing field against the current Apocryohal threat and spending time to develop magics and craft artifacts to solve the ever increasing problem of overwhelming Charisma is not a bonus but a burden on the amount of objectives that we have to complete.

Just please vote for Sky Veil and be done with this problem already.
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Yes it would obviously cost arete to gain better control of our charisma later, it's hardly a waste to spend on VH now though. It actually upgrades our combat power and improves our cha and rank gain.

Sky Veil in comparison gives us a few stats and the ability to make ourselves worse at charisma. Paying later to gain proper control of our charisma so we can use it however we want isn't a waste of effort.
 
Tallying...
Adhoc vote count started by Tyrant_Rayne on Aug 3, 2020 at 12:36 AM, finished with 557 posts and 67 votes.
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Hm... a tight vote! Sky Veil does have considerably more omake power, from a cursory inspection. Will it be enough to overcome Vanquisher's vote lead?
 
ImperatorV said:
Really? I would have vastly preferred Honing to this. VH is just... So negative. "Mind Controlling everyone I meet is fine, I'll just put a wall between myself and them!" In what world is that a good solution?
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Except that is the point? It lets us put a wall between Hunger and word count eating background characters without all the downsides of a no social build. That was one of Gleams best features, and building on that is wonderful.
 
LordOfMurder said:
It's a nerf because we're not gaining greater control over our charisma so that we're only directing it where we want which is presumably what we could do with enough manipulation. We're instead just temporarily becoming less charismatic in increments.

Yes it would obviously cost arete to gain better control of our charisma later, it's hardly a waste to spend on VH now though. It actually upgrades our combat power and improves our cha and rank gain.

Sky Veil in comparison gives us a few stats and the ability to make ourselves worse at charisma. Paying later to gain proper control of our charisma so we can use it however we want isn't a waste of effort.
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So what you are describing is literally controlling our charisma albeit in 25% increments. You are also continuing to ignore the other benefits of skyveil aside from stats and the fact that it solves the problem Permanently. It is not like this will be the last time we take charisma, given all the bonuses we have to it and Halo's nullification of the uttermost penalty and how comparatively rarely we have seen manipulation (though that may change as we engage in intrigue) we may never be able to properly control our charisma. Also we do not know how precisely manip works on our charisma so I don't think we can assume that we can have a better version of one of the primary features of Skyveil just by balancing our stats ( though to be fair the same argument says that maybe we could).
 
Duquette7 said:
Except that is the point? It lets us put a wall between Hunger and word count eating background characters without all the downsides of no a no social build. That was one of Gleams best features, and building on that is wonderful.
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It's not only background characters though. Aeira and Aobaru are also effected. Probably Letz too once Ennobling stops being enough, like rihaku said it might I believe.
 
LordOfMurder said:
Yes it would obviously cost arete to gain better control of our charisma later, it's hardly a waste to spend on VH now though. It actually upgrades our combat power and improves our cha and rank gain.

Sky Veil in comparison gives us a few stats and the ability to make ourselves worse at charisma. Paying later to gain proper control of our charisma so we can use it however we want isn't a waste of effort.
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You mean add more errands to fucking do on our list of things to do now isn't a problem? And what do you mean worse in charisma? When will you understand that its control how much we blast people with it? We could lessen it on our citizens and allies and bring it to full bare against enemies. And we already need to go to the Human Sphere and confront the problems brewing over there, find a way to extract mages from the Voyaging Realm, practice with the Praxis, develop Graces, learn how to rule a government properly, hunt down and acquire new advancements and you want to add more to that list?
 
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Zfglx said:
So what you are describing is literally controlling our charisma albeit in 25% increments. You are also continuing to ignore the other benefits of skyveil aside from stats and the fact that it solves the problem Permanently. It is not like this will be the last time we take charisma, given all the bonuses we have to it and Halo's nullification of the uttermost penalty and how comparatively rarely we have seen manipulation (though that may change as we engage in intrigue) we may never be able to properly control our charisma. Also we do not know how precisely manip works on our charisma so I don't think we can assume that we can have a better version of one of the primary features of Skyveil just by balancing our stats ( though to be fair the same argument says that maybe we could).
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There's a difference between controlling yourself and weakening yourself. If our intelligence was so high that we couldn't put up with plebs we could make ourself dumber to deal with it (skyveil) or we could just learn to put up with it regardless by raising wisdom or something (i.e getting manip or some other way).

SpectatingRaven said:
You mean add more errands to fucking do on our list of things to do now isn't a problem? And what do you mean worse in charisma? When will you understand that its control how much we blast people with it? We could lessen it on our citizens and allies and bring it to full bare against enemies. And we already need to go to the Human Sphere and confront the problems brewing over there, find a way to extract mages from the Voyaging Realm, practice with the Praxis, develop Graces, learn how to rule a government properly, hunt down and acquire new advancements and you want to add more to that list?
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It's just charisma, it's not like it's our eye laser stat and people will die if we don't control it immediately. Right now having tons of charisma is actually good for us. High Charisma is super useful for a bunch of things on our list so I'm not super keen to spend 7 arete on an advancement that just lets us turn it off.
 
LordOfMurder said:
It's just charisma, it's not like it's our eye laser stat and people will die if we don't control it immediately. Right now having tons of charisma is actually good for us. High Charisma is super useful for a bunch of things on our list so I'm not s
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Its not just fucking charisma its the only social stat we have reliable access to and has seen already investment in mutipliers. So you know, the thing we use to interact with other people? And the problem is not people dying, its that if we interact with them we warp their personalities. If you don't see the problem with that then there is something wrong with how you approach this dilemma.
 
LordOfMurder said:
There's a difference between controlling yourself and weakening yourself. If our intelligence was so high that we couldn't put up with plebs we could make ourself dumber to deal with it (skyveil) or we could just learn to put up with it regardless by raising wisdom or something (i.e getting manip or some other way).
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You know what is a form of controlling yourself? Holding back your strength, which is pretty explicitly weakening yourself as you seem to put it. I choose to think of it as not putting forth a our full effort when we do not need to. I also think it is pretty silly to compare charisma to mental stats when it is the raw force of our personality not how intelligent we are . Charisma does not seem to let us think up more and better ways ways of interaction, I think that falls under manipulation. What it does seem to do is make people think well of us and make our social overtures more effective by virtues of our well likableness. If you want to pretend being able to choose to tone it up or down if needed is not control and is totally useless feel free, but it really doesn't change what it is. Not to mention you still have yet to address when exactly we will be able to control our charisma if we do not take this now or even address the other very useful facets of veil, or acknowledge that taking veil does not suddenly make us never use our charisma ever for some arcane reason.
 
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