Why? I fail to see how to standing up against bullies makes Jacob narrow minded...
If we're gonna fight someone every time we see something that goes against our morals without even considering the possibility that maybe they can be talked down or be convinced maybe their actions are wrong, then that's being narrow minded.
 
Going gun blazing on someone that you will have to meet afterwards is pretty much never a good choice. I think we should at least try to argue about this.
 
Yeah, at this rate, we're going to lose our wand bonus.
You are being a bit dramatic here this situation is pretty cut and dry, they were clearly bullying the poor Hufflepuff and we are taking the initiative to attack first and get the upper hand against the bullies. I don't see how that is a narrow minded approach to the situation.

Just to clarify I don't mind which way the vote goes as long as we help the Hufflepuff but to say we will lose our wand bonus trying to get the upper hand early is fear mongering
 
If we're gonna fight someone every time we see something that goes against our morals without even considering the possibility that maybe they can be talked down or be convinced maybe their actions are wrong, then that's being narrow minded.

I think you've grabbed the wrong end of the stick if you catch my meaning if you think the Wand will care that we attacked first here.

Talking them down doesn't impute or grant Jacob any grand quality of being open minded it would simply mean he's charismatic, being narrow minded in this instance would mean walking away, I could see that losing the wand bonus. I can't see attacking doing the same.

You are being a bit dramatic here this situation is pretty cut and dry, they were clearly bullying the poor Hufflepuff and we are taking the initiative to attack first and get the upper hand against the bullies. I don't see how that is a narrow minded approach to the situation.

Just to clarify I don't mind which way the vote goes as long as we help the Hufflepuff but to say we will lose our wand bonus trying to get the upper hand early is fear mongering

I have to agree with you on that one.

@DarkKing98

For what it's worth I don't think the wand expects its user to be tolerant of intolerance and bigotry.
 
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Tabula Rasa, are you allowing approval voting for this, so that people voting for different amount of time echoes (from 0 to 8) can at least be sure that they don't shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to voting for 'which approach Jacob takes'?
Yeah, don't worry about that. An option vote counts for that option first. Then I'll see about the subvotes and which of the subvotes has the most votes.

So if there are 8 people voting for option four and no Time Echoes, and 6 people for Option four with 5 time Echoes; then Option four has 14 votes and I will go with no Time Echoes, because that subvote won.
 
I think you've grabbed the wrong end of the stick if you catch my meaning if you think the Wand will care that we attacked first here.

Talking them down doesn't impute or grant Jacob any grand quality of being open minded it would simply mean he's charismatic, being narrow minded in this instance would mean walking away, I could see that losing the wand bonus. I can't see attacking doing the same.
Attacking once without trying to talk first isn't going to do it I agree. But the issue is, the more we do one particular action, the more the thread will vote for that action. And if we continously just attack racist jackasses without doing anything different, that is narrow minded.

On a more pragmatic and not wand related note, you don't stop racism by punching people. You stop it by learning what views they have, why they have them, and then destroying said views with logic and evidence. Just getting into a fight is not going to do anything besides give Jacob and the voter base that voted for it a moment of patting themselves on the back for 'doing a good thing'
 
Attacking once without trying to talk first isn't going to do it I agree. But the issue is, the more we do one particular action, the more the thread will vote for that action. And if we continously just attack racist jackasses without doing anything different, that is narrow minded.

On a more pragmatic and not wand related note, you don't stop racism by punching people. You stop it by learning what views they have, why they have them, and then destroying said views with logic and evidence. Just getting into a fight is not going to do anything besides give Jacob and the voter base that voted for it a moment of patting themselves on the back for 'doing a good thing'

I'm not sure I agree with you, I think the voters are capable of using their judgement to apply actions that are sensible for the contexts of the votes they are in.

On a pragmatic level you absolutely do stop people trying to torture some one with voilence in the short term, there's no establishing a dialogue with some one whilst they're engaging in torture. We're voting for how Jacob revolves this immediate situation, not how he turns blood purists as a whole away from being awful bigots. I don't think it's really in the scope of what we can expect 14 year old Jacob to do as he's not a charisma build and we really don't have any intention to go for that.
 
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Eh, they already attacked Justin. There is no way they are talking their way out of this from a teacher, unless it is Snape, in which case, it wouldn't matter what we do because he will side with the Slytherins.

I say we use the initiative to our advantage.

You make a very good point that going to the teachers will result in the bullies getting in trouble (depending on if Snape is the one deciding things or not), I failed to consider that element. Will edit my post above.



Context: Jacob has a bit of a rep: the Sally Ann Incident, possibly whatever Dueling Club skill these people know off; also Nott owes him (an Nelly) his soul.


I am now much more ambivalent as to attack first or talk + attack, mostly as I am curious to see what pressure Jacob will choose to try and exert on Nott, and how Nott will react to it. Also to have a chance see if Jacob can lay down some low-key badass threats or not.

On the other limb... attacking first is valuable.

Here a potential attempt to convince Nott that appeals to me: "It was due to my spell that you are not a soulless husk. I ran back towards the dementors[1] and grabbed you. You owe me more than your life, you may choose to repay that debt in one way: do not be a bully"

[1]iirc
 
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On a more pragmatic and not wand related note, you don't stop racism by punching people. You stop it by learning what views they have, why they have them, and then destroying said views with logic and evidence. Just getting into a fight is not going to do anything besides give Jacob and the voter base that voted for it a moment of patting themselves on the back for 'doing a good thing'

Yeah, no, can't agree here.

You don't argue with idiots, because first, they drag you to their level and then they beat you there because of their experience.
 
I say we use the initiative to our advantage
I think we should give Nott the option to either opt out or get his compatriots to stop.
I favor the guns-blazing option,
Might work, but it's also boring. Did we choose a Ravenclaw or Gryffindor?
Why? I fail to see how to standing up against bullies makes Jacob narrow minded...
We're not giving Nott, someone with debt to us, a chance to decide if he wants to pay off said debt. We're attacking him which forces him to side with the other Slytherin.
 
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Yeah, no, can't agree here.

You don't argue with idiots, because first, they drag you to their level and then they beat you there because of their experience.
There's also the fact that some people just don't want to change their views and no matter how grounded in logic your argument is, if someone doesn't want to listen then you have just wasted your time.
 
Does it look like Nott is in any position to influence the older Slytherin?
Yes, with wand point if need be. And before you exclaim this would make him a pariah in slytherin, we have a sort of friend in Tracy, a girl pushing herself to be a top tier duelist. That's not the worst person Nott could have in weathering the social storm.
 
Attacking once without trying to talk first isn't going to do it I agree. But the issue is, the more we do one particular action, the more the thread will vote for that action. And if we continously just attack racist jackasses without doing anything different, that is narrow minded.

On a more pragmatic and not wand related note, you don't stop racism by punching people. You stop it by learning what views they have, why they have them, and then [1]destroying said views with logic and evidence. Just getting into a fight is not going to do anything besides give Jacob and the voter base that voted for it a moment of patting themselves on the back for 'doing a good thing'
This is intensely stupid and I feel obliged to speak against it.

[1] People who are inclined to wanting to have a simple outgroup that they can feel superior towards and be free to abuse and victimise are not motivated by facts. The reality of the situation means nothing to them. They care for their own feelings, nothing else.

[2] Getting into fights will not, that is correct. Winning fights against them does. It teaches bigots that want to use violence against people that there are direct consequences to them for doing so. This in aggregate causes a reduction in harm to those that bigots target[3]

[3] "But then the rascists will just hate all the more" is one of the common formulation of a responses to this. They make their own choices, and sometimes consequences happen. I care about actions, not the feelings of people who go out of their way to make people suffer.


I am not debating you. I am not bothering to pretend that the things you said here have any merit by dint of getting into a back-and-forth.
Your post is incorrect and the perspective promoted by it facilitates suffering - you are free to respond, of course, but you should probably not have any parts of your response be formulated in a way that is an invitation to a response from me. My patience for things that look like they are going to veer into apologia for the choices of bigots died quite some time ago.


----

"And if we continously just attack racist jackasses without doing anything different, that is narrow minded."

Come back when you read some Chomsky, maybe then you'll not just smash together phrases that look like they might fit together without regard for context or meaning. I doubt it, but something something hope springs eternal.
 
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Yes, with wand point if need be. And before you exclaim this would make him a pariah in slytherin, we have a sort of friend in Tracy, a girl pushing herself to be a top tier duelist. That's not the worst person Nott could have in weathering the social storm.
I would rather not drag Tracey into our problem, she has absolutely nothing to do with this and we may end up hurting her reputation within Slytherin if we try and push a social pariah Nott onto her.
 
While I agree that this one action isn't going to lose us a wand, I do think that we should take the opportunity to talk first.

We actually don't know what's going on. Sure, it looks like 3 Slytherin with whom we already have a previous dislike are threatening a Hufflepuff. Seems cut and dry bullying- and it very well might be. Certainly seems over the top.

But, from what we hear, it is clear that there is some sort of conflict between Goyle and Finch-Fletchly. "I told you not to look at me like that...told you to piss off" and the use of the word mudblood. And "Gregory tells me you're a bother to him- talking bad and all".

So, is this a typical bullying or is it a conflict between two people, one of whom called his friends to gang up on his nemesis? Probably not- but we don't know for sure.

And that is where it may (or may) not be close minded to just attack without checking our assumptions and trying to talk these guys down. Maybe it is a conflict between Goyle and Finch-Fletchly and he can leave now that "Finch-Fletchly got the message". Given the high DC, possibly not.

But, still want to give talking at try to find out what is going on, why, before we attack someone.
 
I would rather not drag Tracey into our problem, she has absolutely nothing to do with this and we may end up hurting her reputation within Slytherin if we try and push a social pariah Nott onto her.
The Nott thing is why I want to try and use any feelings of 'debt' he might have for risking our soul to save his - it will give him cover in his social group (a social group that he has no way of leaving) to not be a bully if he chooses. It gives him an out, if he wants one.
 
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It's been 3 hours already.

[X] This is no laughing matter – You don't think you will be able to argue with either Goyle, nor the older Slytherin, but you might be able to reach an agreement with Nott. Both of you still remember the debt he owes you. If it doesn't work, pull your wand out. You do not think that you can hold yourself against three students, no matter their talent, but you'll be damned if you go down without hurting them. (High DC for talking them out of it, High DC for the ensuing fight.)


[x] Words are Winds – You don't think you will be able to argue with either of them. Pull your wand out, while you do not think that you can hold yourself against three students, you have an advantage in initiative. (High DC for ensuing fight, but you'll be able attack first.)
 
Yes, with wand point if need be. And before you exclaim this would make him a pariah in slytherin, we have a sort of friend in Tracy, a girl pushing herself to be a top tier duelist. That's not the worst person Nott could have in weathering the social storm.
That is incredibly unrealistic and supremely far-fetched. You expect the following:
- Third-year Nott is supposed to man up and tell an older and bigger Slytherin to stand down.
- Nott is supposed to risk his standing among his current peers and potential allies (see older Slytherin) for a girl he may or may not have talked to more than a few words.
- Said girl is club acquaintance, not a friend, of us and Nott has currently no idea of our connection to her.

Furthermore, the whole dream sequence a few chapters back seems very fitting now.

My brother Isaac – You have seen the wisest of men never to give up, no matter the peril. From this, you learned to be strong in times of need. In a life and death situation, get a +5 on all defence rolls.
 
While I agree that this one action isn't going to lose us a wand, I do think that we should take the opportunity to talk first.

We actually don't know what's going on. Sure, it looks like 3 Slytherin with whom we already have a previous dislike are threatening a Hufflepuff. Seems cut and dry bullying- and it very well might be. Certainly seems over the top.

But, from what we hear, it is clear that there is some sort of conflict between Goyle and Finch-Fletchly. "I told you not to look at me like that...told you to piss off" and the use of the word mudblood. And "Gregory tells me you're a bother to him- talking bad and all".

So, is this a typical bullying or is it a conflict between two people, one of whom called his friends to gang up on his nemesis? Probably not- but we don't know for sure.

And that is where it may (or may) not be close minded to just attack without checking our assumptions and trying to talk these guys down. Maybe it is a conflict between Goyle and Finch-Fletchly and he can leave now that "Finch-Fletchly got the message". Given the high DC, possibly not.

But, still want to give talking at try to find out what is going on, why, before we attack someone.

It's typical bullying.

An older student is using a benign situation to get his rocks off by watching some one torture some one else.

"Theo, you wanted to practice a few jinxes, didn't you? We have the perfect opportunity at hand."

There's nothing that justifies that level of sadism.
 
[X] This is no laughing matter – You don't think you will be able to argue with either Goyle, nor the older Slytherin, but you might be able to reach an agreement with Nott. Both of you still remember the debt he owes you. If it doesn't work, pull your wand out. You do not think that you can hold yourself against three students, no matter their talent, but you'll be damned if you go down without hurting them. (High DC for talking them out of it, High DC for the ensuing fight.)

Because I want to see the Jacob/Nott interaction- and if my 'debt' idea works then the number of possible foes goes down by one.
 
[X] This is no laughing matter – You don't think you will be able to argue with either Goyle, nor the older Slytherin, but you might be able to reach an agreement with Nott. Both of you still remember the debt he owes you. If it doesn't work, pull your wand out. You do not think that you can hold yourself against three students, no matter their talent, but you'll be damned if you go down without hurting them. (High DC for talking them out of it, High DC for the ensuing fight.)
 
[x] Words are Winds – You don't think you will be able to argue with either of them. Pull your wand out, while you do not think that you can hold yourself against three students, you have an advantage in initiative. (High DC for ensuing fight, but you'll be able attack first.)
 
[X] This is no laughing matter – You don't think you will be able to argue with either Goyle, nor the older Slytherin, but you might be able to reach an agreement with Nott. Both of you still remember the debt he owes you. If it doesn't work, pull your wand out. You do not think that you can hold yourself against three students, no matter their talent, but you'll be damned if you go down without hurting them. (High DC for talking them out of it, High DC for the ensuing fight.)

This is the one I want to go for most. Even if we fail, we can always say that "we tried." Shooting first is liable to stack even more future aggression against us, and the whole "authority figures won't do shit" argument is kind of taking a piss when you take into consideration the fact that Snape is an outlier. I sincerely doubt that Flitwick or McGonagall would take reports of bullying lying down; they would, bare minimum, cover for us, even if they couldn't stick anything more permanent on the Slytherins than a detention and docked points.

I'm pretty sure no one here is going to go for the "walk away" option because that's a dick move. So the question here is "how high is 'high,'" exactly, and how much of an advantage does shooting first give us? Even if we do get the first shot off, we don't exactly have much in the way of instant-KO spells (not counting Lapifors). I'm not even sure if we know Expelliarmus, which, by the way, we should really get on.

Thus: with the "attack first" option, we have 1 round of breathing room, after which it becomes a 1v3 for one or two rounds, assuming Finch-Fletchley gets his wand and actually backs us up instead of just running away. Even if we do land a successful Lapifors on one of them, we're still fighting a 1v2, which is not exactly winning odds, though to be fair Gregory Goyle is kind of lousy at magic. Even then, though, he's still guaranteed to know enough magic to put up a fight.

The only "tangible" benefit that talking first gives us is the moral high ground and a chance to cash in Nott's favor (though whether or not it's right to put that kind of pressure on him, considering he has to live with his own House, is up for debate).
Honestly, I don't want to put that kind of pressure on him, and I'm a little more inclined to use 2 Time Echoes (willing to us4 at most) to try and raise our combat chances. I've got an awful habit of hoarding resources in games, and now's as good a time as any to try and break it!
Back on track: moral high ground and we're basically seen in a better light for it. While it doesn't seem like much, it sounds a lot better to be the guy who tried to talk them down and lost a fight than the guy who shot first and still lost the fight (DC is still listed as high for both scenarios, remember that).
Trying to give people the chance, no matter how small, to correct their ways... it's difficult to do. Yeah. It is, but it's still what you should do. We've all got our fantasies.

But you know what? That's the defeatist attitude. We've honestly been pretty lucky with our combat dice thus far, so if we manage to hold both the moral high ground and win, that's twice the kickass points. We have a reputation, no matter how unwanted it may be, and a tool that goes unused is a sad one indeed. We can at least make them think twice about picking a fight. Being socially inept doesn't mean we can't put up a decent threat. Hell, I wouldn't even say we're that bad; we just want to be alone more often than not. It's not like we shove our foot down our throat 24/7.

Uh. Back to main topic at hand. I don't want us to shoot first because that just doesn't feel like the "generally more thoughtful, intelligent and open-minded" character we're playing as. It could be argued that intervening immediately in a clear conflict won't diminish that character, but I am always of the belief that both sides must be heard. Due process and all that jazz.
 
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The Nott thing is why I want to try and use any feelings of 'debt' he might have for risking our soul to save his - it will give him cover in his social group (a social group that he has no way of leaving) to not be a bully if he chooses. It gives him an out, if he wants one.
Yea I agree and thats why I don't mind the talk option but I absolutely refuse to bring Tracey into this if Nott becomes a social pariah, not only does it risk our tentative friendship with her, it's also not her problem and dragging her into it is unfair of us
 
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