Flectarn
Uphold Kali Akuno Thought
- Location
- Queen City of the Ohio
Maybe.
It was a pretty common belief at the time that if the poor didn't suffer enough, they wouldn't work as hard.
A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850
- Thread starter Instant Sunrise
- Start date
- Original 19th Century Supernatural
Maybe.
It was a pretty common belief at the time that if the poor didn't suffer enough, they wouldn't work as hard.
serra2
Himouto! Sylvanas-chan
You mean there was a time where this was not the belief?
Instant Sunrise
Queen Shit of Liesville
- Location
- Los Angeles
- Pronouns
- her/she
Maybe California would sell them PV panels for the factory roofs but conveniently forget to include enough battery capacity to keep the shop going going very long after dark, forcing shorter work hours.
True our modern Protestant work ethic is still blatantly exploitative of working people, but in Victorian England it was notoriously bad.
True our modern Protestant work ethic is still blatantly exploitative of working people, but in Victorian England it was notoriously bad.
With a 12 hour work time, if you start around 6-7 you can still work till nigh. And sooner or later someone would figure out how to supply energy from stored water tanks or a river.
But if those tools had chips in them to turn off after some time...
Too bad forced 12 hour shifts still happen, and its legal to fire someone refusing.
- Location
- United States of America
But I think once they are shown that more shorter shifts are actually more efficient and will get them more money.
LHB
Economics don't work like that!
- Location
- Glasgow, UK originally from California
Victorian attitudes regarding race and class were a big factor in said work practices. Part of where the whole eugenics movement came from was rich people speculating that poor people were inherently inferior to their social betters on some level. It wouldn't be a stretch to say, at least in some places, the working class were seen as less human than their owners.
Richardson
CAN YOU HEAR THE PEOPLE SING?
- Location
- Yes
A cute sentiment, but given that companies still cut major corners even today instead of doing the safe thing, it's safe to say that just trying to show industrialists won't work. It doesn't work today, it's certainly not going to work in the 1850s. The workers rising up and demanding these changes at gunpoint would, however.
xa na xa
A.E.I.O.U. - Antarticae est imperare orbi universo
- Location
- σ Octantis
The good thing is that we are in 1850, before those attitudes became entrenched in the later half of the 19th century.
For instance, by presenting modern darwibian evolutionary theory and genetics, social-darwinism could be smothered in the nest.
- Location
- Washington DC
Its nice that people are still optimistic enough to think that facts and reason can convince people to abandon politically expedient and ideologically satisfying ideas. Unfortunately, those things have never been enough when people in power have an interest in certain facts not being true. Eugenics was an ideology that justified colonialism and rule by the wealthy (and later hyper-nationalism and mass theft of property and territory). If California challenges that, either they will be dismissed, or a new equally toxic ideology will rise to justify colonialism and its ills. It took decades for politics to catch up to science on the danger of tobacco, and it still hasn't caught up on the issue of Climate Change/Collapse. The reason is the same. People in power would have to change their profitable behaviors if certain facts were acknowledged. Therefore those facts 'must be complex and not fully understood' so they can keep doing as they like.
xa na xa
A.E.I.O.U. - Antarticae est imperare orbi universo
- Location
- σ Octantis
Not facts and reason alone.
Facts and reason supported by 21st century information warfare, propagated by total control of emergent media technology.
Some will indeed oppose fiercely the new order, but for most elites it will be far more profitable to be co-opted in it.
Facts and reason supported by 21st century information warfare, propagated by total control of emergent media technology.
Some will indeed oppose fiercely the new order, but for most elites it will be far more profitable to be co-opted in it.
Which Cali has no way of using, since all it takes for any country to stop that, is to lock up people in prison, break printing machines, or putting such heavy taxes on any "emerging media viewing equipment" that only the wealthy could afford.
- Location
- California
Airdrop pamphlets
- Location
- in the trash
Good for them. That means they lose out on all the advantages that 21st century communications tech would provide, and wouldn't even be entirely effective anyway because smuggling and the black market are things that exist.
Also, if California was to fly a plane loaded with millions of propaganda leaflets over a city and distribute them via airdrop, literally no one would be able to do anything to stop them.
xa na xa
A.E.I.O.U. - Antarticae est imperare orbi universo
- Location
- σ Octantis
If they are trying to suppress samizdat, it's already to late for them, they have an infestation of dissidents.
California has immense soft power, far more than the US has relatively OTL.
To get all the new tech, countries want their citizens to be proficient in them. They will send their best and brightest to California to learn about them.
But even their best and brightest are too many to all go to Californian universities. So why not choose those that have more affinity for the Californian lifestyle; students, scientists, engineers that will return enthusiastic about recreating all the progressive way to do things by the shores of the Pacific; whilst holding they keys to the future richness of their home countries... some keys are even held by ladies, that were very welcome in the Californian technology transfer programmes...
Hundreds, thousands, every year, eager to apply and spread back home things like electricity, chemistry, metallurgy, Keynesian economics or film studies.
California has immense soft power, far more than the US has relatively OTL.
To get all the new tech, countries want their citizens to be proficient in them. They will send their best and brightest to California to learn about them.
But even their best and brightest are too many to all go to Californian universities. So why not choose those that have more affinity for the Californian lifestyle; students, scientists, engineers that will return enthusiastic about recreating all the progressive way to do things by the shores of the Pacific; whilst holding they keys to the future richness of their home countries... some keys are even held by ladies, that were very welcome in the Californian technology transfer programmes...
Hundreds, thousands, every year, eager to apply and spread back home things like electricity, chemistry, metallurgy, Keynesian economics or film studies.
I get what you are saying, and some would think in these terms. However there would also be those who filter technical education candidates for those most comfortable with the current social order and not likely to shake matters up with radical outlandish notions.
And the ladies? Either they go on their eccentric families' guinea, they scrape together passage through nonconformist churches or other such networks, or they are not going. And of those who do go how many would willingly return?
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Well, it depends. If they were flying something like a C-130 at low altitude, a modified mortar of the era with a very short fuse on the shell might be a potential threat, but at higher altitudes nobody would be able to threaten them.
- Location
- Washington DC
I think that we also need to realize that a lot of the changes California is championing will take at least a generation to develop. There's just no way to get the people currently in power (mostly aristocrats of various shades) to accept the absurd level of social disruption that Californian values represent. An 8 hour work day? How absurd! How could the factory make a profit? Add on pensions, workplace safety officers, new taxes, unions, and accommodations for various foreign religions, or g-d forbid gender identities and queers? The current generation of factory owners might cherry pick a few of those, but the whole thing? Not a chance. The same applies to governments. They might take a few things they think would be helpful, but everything?
A good example of this actually is modern China. They have been open to the world (more or less) for 40 years, or about two generations. They have whole hardheartedly embraced capitalism, industrialization, surveillance tech, and absolutely shut down things like the internet, democracy, human and workers rights, and even civil society. Its not unreasonable for Europe of this period to follow a similar model.
A good example of this actually is modern China. They have been open to the world (more or less) for 40 years, or about two generations. They have whole hardheartedly embraced capitalism, industrialization, surveillance tech, and absolutely shut down things like the internet, democracy, human and workers rights, and even civil society. Its not unreasonable for Europe of this period to follow a similar model.
the atom
Anarcho-Kemalist Thought Leader
- Location
- Comfortably numb
It's cute that people think California of all places has literally anything to say to anyone in this time period about class inequality.
Like, Peter Thiel is presently selling the actual blood of teenagers to rich people as an anti-aging elixir.
Like, Peter Thiel is presently selling the actual blood of teenagers to rich people as an anti-aging elixir.
Zap Rowsdower
Ex-cultist vagrant
- Location
- Bright lights, big city
- Pronouns
- He/Him
As bad as things are now, they were worse in the mid-1800s. Much worse.
It's like comparing somebody who got a 59/100 to somebody who got a 3/100.
the atom
Anarcho-Kemalist Thought Leader
- Location
- Comfortably numb
Yeah, which means that it's fertile ground for things like Amazon and Apple sweatshops.
- Location
- Washington DC
Sad and cynical as this may sound, hypercorporate neocolonialism is a way better option than what is actually coming down the line. Amazon and Apple have nothing on the British East India Trading Company. Modern corporations, bad as they may be, don't go around invading countries, raising armies, and generally wrecking havoc. Sure, modern corporations bribe governments, and subject poor people to effective wage slavery, but compared to being a literal slave (say on a Southern cotton plantation) wage slavery is great. Not objectively good, but certainly comparatively.
Frankly, if Californian businessmen can demonstrate that you don't need to control a country directly to make vast sums from it, the places that historically got colonized might end up way better off than they did in OTL. Not great, modern companies are still exploitative as all hell, but way better than foreign armies marching in and saying "extract this resource for us or we shoot you, oh by the way this is our land now" which is basically what happened historically.
Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
As far as foreign trade for California goes...
What exactly are they trading?
I doubt there are thousands of tons of useful materials around and ready to be shipped to California, so if California needs something rare they're going to have to open up their own mines with modern equipment.
At that point, why trade at all? Just send some ships to, say, Angola, and mine with Californians on uninhabited land, skipping the headache of the downtimers entirely.
What exactly are they trading?
I doubt there are thousands of tons of useful materials around and ready to be shipped to California, so if California needs something rare they're going to have to open up their own mines with modern equipment.
At that point, why trade at all? Just send some ships to, say, Angola, and mine with Californians on uninhabited land, skipping the headache of the downtimers entirely.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
Admittedly I never liked the phrase wage slavery given the real examples of slavery in history like chattel slavery like practiced in the south, not to mention things like peonage which was outlawed 1867 but was extremely common in new mexico during this time and remained a problem in the south and the southwest into the 20th century and of course the complete and final abolishing of indentured servitude in 1900.
Wonder if California stays in the union if they will push for things like the Seaman and Jones acts, the Shipping Commissioner act of 1872, Dingley Act, Maguire Act act of 1895 and white act of 1898 which pretty much established sailor's rights including the right to lets say not get kidnapped by ship captains and forced into labor and subjected to being beaten, starved or worse.
Wonder if California stays in the union if they will push for things like the Seaman and Jones acts, the Shipping Commissioner act of 1872, Dingley Act, Maguire Act act of 1895 and white act of 1898 which pretty much established sailor's rights including the right to lets say not get kidnapped by ship captains and forced into labor and subjected to being beaten, starved or worse.
Zap Rowsdower
Ex-cultist vagrant
- Location
- Bright lights, big city
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's called "exploitative colonialism". Even if you outmatch them, you respect their sovereignty and avoid taking advantage of them via differences in conceptualization of property rights; ask before taking resources from others, be willing to take no for an answer, and provide meaningful non-token compensation that will actually leave them as well off or better rather than suffering more.