A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850

While that makes some sense, it's not always feasible. One modern US nuclear submarine is extremely expensive. A few F-35s cost a ton of money. California is wealthy, but not that wealthy, especially after enduring three major natural disasters in a row and the event.

Keeping up the research and cost efficient experimentation is a good idea. Building billion dollar nuclear ultra-quiet submarines when far cheaper and easier to maintain diesel-electric non-exotic-hulled submarines will work just fine for decades doesn't make sense.

Also, California is going to need lots of rare earth metals, most of which come from China. Looks like a conflict with the British over trade with China is on the horizon...
People always talk about the costs of war, but y'know, war isn't a game of Counter Strike or Command & Conquer. You go to war with the stuff you've already paid for years ago - the costs of your weapons and equipment are essentially a sunk cost by that point.

Cost parity doesn't exist in war and never happens when comparing weapons to targets. 8 million dollar tanks die to 100 thousand dollar ATGMs. A dude paid 250 bucks plants an IED that kills a squad with tens of thousands of dollars of training. 100,000 dollar Javelins are used to snipe Taliban on a mountaintop.

The problems you face are less going to be about money, and more about getting the raw materials you need to make your high tech weapons, while also training up your workforce and people to maintain your edge. The US way is to maintain a qualitative and quantitative edge; it's going to be a long time before that quantitative edge happens, so California must preserve its qualitative and capability edge to act as force multipliers.

As a real world example, consider the Tamil Tigers. The Tamil Tigers were able to hold open seaborne supply lines against the Sri Lankan Navy using homemade ships because the latter only had small patrol craft which were more or less exchanging on equitable terms with the Tigers. This persisted for years until the Sri Lankan Navy acquired several larger (and longer-ranged) vessels so that they could actually pursue the Tiger's supply ships deep into the ocean and consistently overmatch them in their battles.

Reminds me of the film Pentagon Wars and the constant changes made to the design of the Bradley.



While the movie is satire, the development of the Bradley really was just that much of a shitshow, complete with falsifying test results.


Someguy16 had a good rebuttal to the Pentagon Wars here on SB's War Room, and then there's also this bit wellis found. The fact of the matter is that the Bradley development wasn't the shitshow Burton's memoir portrays it as, because the US was looking at what the Russians were doing with the BMP and decided "Yup, we need some of that."

The testing that Burton was pushing for was testing the Bradley against srsface tank fire, which the design team resisted because they saw it as wasteful: The design team basically went "well that's going to be a waste of time because the Bradley isn't going to live if it gets hit with 120mm HEAT, it was never designed to be protected against that."

The Bradley was designed to be protected against the expected percentage threats of 152mm artillery splinters and 14.5mm HMG, not tank fire. The Army planned to use Bradleys as tank destroyers by abusing kemp bush memes: the Soviets weren't stupid and their doctrine was "if it looks like it could hold an ATGM team, call arty on it", so the Bradley is protected against that. Protection against HMG because the Bradley's other job was to drive up to an objective held by enemy troops and drop them right on the objective and stay there and support them with the 25mm. And if you're hidden and ambushing tanks and then running away, you can get away with not being armored against tank fire. Consider the WW2 US turreted tank destroyers: it's basically the same meta as the M36 and M18, only with a roof proof against arty and NBC.

...I am no longer surprised by the shitshow of the F-35s development.

although, the "don't worry about Armour, make it quick and punch hard" gave me Leopard II flashbacks
In fairness to the Leopard design philosophy, at the time the Leopard 1 was being designed, HEAT just overmatched steel armor so hard that there was no real way to effectively armor the tank, which is why the Germans basically gave up on armor. Given the nature of the expected fighting the Germans would be doing (defensively from dug in fighting positions), this was seen as an acceptable compromise. Note that once ceramic composites and laminated armor became a thing (armor thus significantly eroding the overmatch of gun), the Germans were quick to going back to armoring up the Leopard 2.
 
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Someguy16 had a good rebuttal to the Pentagon Wars here on SB's War Room, and then there's also this bit wellis found. The fact of the matter is that the Bradley development wasn't the shitshow Burton's memoir portrays it as, because the US was looking at what the Russians were doing with the BMP and decided "Yup, we need some of that."

The testing that Burton was pushing for was testing the Bradley against srsface tank fire, which the design team resisted because they saw it as wasteful: The design team basically went "well that's going to be a waste of time because the Bradley isn't going to live if it gets hit with 120mm HEAT, it was never designed to be protected against that."

Te Bradley was designed to be protected against the expected percentage threats of 152mm artillery splinters and 14.5mm HMG, not tank fire. The Army planned to use Bradleys as tank destroyers by abusing kemp bush memes: the Soviets weren't stupid and their doctrine was "if it looks like it could hold an ATGM team, call arty on it", so the Bradley is protected against that. Protection against HMG because the Bradley's other job was to drive up to an objective held by enemy troops and drop them right on the objective and stay there and support them with the 25mm. And if you're hidden and ambushing tanks and then running away, you can get away with not being armored against tank fire. Consider the WW2 US turreted tank destroyers: it's basically the same meta as the M36 and M18, only with a roof proof against arty and NBC.
An informative read. Thanks for sharing. I'm always up for learning more details.
 
IT's kind of the issue with modern procurement, and the speed of new developments. By the time you finish engineering your equipment to the specs and requirements of the military, there is some new tool or chip or system or software that needs to be integrated, which makes it take longer to put out, which means more new stuff comes out...
Reminds me of Rule The Waves. Your newest ship is obsolete before construction finishes.
 
People always talk about the costs of war, but y'know, war isn't a game of Counter Strike or Command & Conquer. You go to war with the stuff you've already paid for years ago - the costs of your weapons and equipment are essentially a sunk cost by that point.

Cost parity doesn't exist in war and never happens when comparing weapons to targets. 8 million dollar tanks die to 100 thousand dollar ATGMs. A dude paid 250 bucks plants an IED that kills a squad with tens of thousands of dollars of training. 100,000 dollar Javelins are used to snipe Taliban on a mountaintop.
The problem is that that isn't sustainable. Winning a war that bankrupts you is a hollow victory. If you're losing very expensive, difficult-to-produce vehicles to extremely cheap and expendable attacks, you've failed to adequately prepare for the war you're fighting. Cost effectiveness is absolutely a major factor in warfare--money is an object, because money represents limited resources. Eventually, you go bankrupt. Even if you only get halfway there, that's still a hell of a lot worse than winning said war without going halfway bankrupt.

The problems you face are less going to be about money, and more about getting the raw materials you need to make your high tech weapons, while also training up your workforce and people to maintain your edge. The US way is to maintain a qualitative and quantitative edge; it's going to be a long time before that quantitative edge happens, so California must preserve its qualitative and capability edge to act as force multipliers.
Money is an abstraction for resources--whether you're talking about fuel or materials or man-hours and human resources. Maintaining a qualitative edge is good and all, but if you hamstring your economy in the long-term to do it, you're just setting yourself up for a fall over the horizon. It's kind of like Starcraft--the more money you spend on combat units, the less money you spend on building your economy. The guy who builds a bunch of tanks but doesn't do anything with them is going to lose to the guy who spends that money building a much bigger economy and eventually builds ten times as many tanks, because he can afford it.

The reason the US can afford its best-in-the-world military is because of its best-in-the-world economy. By contrast, Russia has a military that is far larger and more expensive than its economy can healthily support, and its economy is feeling the strain.

There's also the political aspect: the public is not going to put up with funding hugely expensive tanks that get taken out by dirt-cheap IEDs constantly if it doesn't perceive the military as adapting to the problem and finding some way to not squander said tanks.

As a real world example, consider the Tamil Tigers. The Tamil Tigers were able to hold open seaborne supply lines against the Sri Lankan Navy using homemade ships because the latter only had small patrol craft which were more or less exchanging on equitable terms with the Tigers. This persisted for years until the Sri Lankan Navy acquired several larger (and longer-ranged) vessels so that they could actually pursue the Tiger's supply ships deep into the ocean and consistently overmatch them in their battles.
The point is not to give up the qualitative edge entirely; it's to avoid going to extremes of quality so that you get critically low quantity. The US would not have won the Battle of Midway if Yamamoto hadn't concocted a brilliant plan to squander his quantitative supremacy by dividing up his carriers and placing all but four of them too far away to be of any use in the main battle. The M4 Sherman was not the equal of the Tiger in direct combat, but the design of the M4 was such that the US could afford to build tons of them, ship them across the Atlantic, and support much larger numbers.

It sounds like the Sri Lankan navy, in your example, tried to fight an enemy with an edge in neither quality nor quantity, so no fucking duh it had so little success.

Militaries will use expensive munitions and vehicles for grossly disproportionately insignificant targets, but only when there are no better alternatives available, and even then, they'll only do this as long as it takes to figure out a way to avoid wasting so much money to accomplish the same task.

Someguy16 had a good rebuttal to the Pentagon Wars here on SB's War Room, and then there's also this bit wellis found. The fact of the matter is that the Bradley development wasn't the shitshow Burton's memoir portrays it as, because the US was looking at what the Russians were doing with the BMP and decided "Yup, we need some of that."

The testing that Burton was pushing for was testing the Bradley against srsface tank fire, which the design team resisted because they saw it as wasteful: The design team basically went "well that's going to be a waste of time because the Bradley isn't going to live if it gets hit with 120mm HEAT, it was never designed to be protected against that."

The Bradley was designed to be protected against the expected percentage threats of 152mm artillery splinters and 14.5mm HMG, not tank fire. The Army planned to use Bradleys as tank destroyers by abusing kemp bush memes: the Soviets weren't stupid and their doctrine was "if it looks like it could hold an ATGM team, call arty on it", so the Bradley is protected against that. Protection against HMG because the Bradley's other job was to drive up to an objective held by enemy troops and drop them right on the objective and stay there and support them with the 25mm. And if you're hidden and ambushing tanks and then running away, you can get away with not being armored against tank fire. Consider the WW2 US turreted tank destroyers: it's basically the same meta as the M36 and M18, only with a roof proof against arty and NBC.
The issue is that, while the vehicle that the M2 Bradley ended up as was successful, the M2 Bradley was never supposed to be an American BMP. It was supposed to be a successor to the world-renowned APC. A cheap, reliable, simple, and effective vehicle meant for transporting a bunch of troops from point A to point B with modest armor protection and a machine gun for fire support.

The light tank/half-APC that the M2 ended up being was very much not that vehicle. And because it wasn't, you got the US military constantly using Humvees in situations they were never designed for, which did get soldiers killed. Furthermore, no matter how you looked at it, the development process for the M2 Bradley was rather farcical.
 
There is a lot of text below, so I'll just put my tl;dr up top:

- California needs to preserve its qualitative edge as best as possible.
- California needs to balance growing its economy while growing its military and maintaining its qualitative edge and force multipliers (one might do well to look at Singapore).
- Moving to a high-low mix is potentially the best option for California, because you need to balance having enough "good enough" ships to overmatch the opposition, while still maintaining the qualitative edge (which is what the US did for much of the Cold War).
- Aggressively downteching too far bleeds away California's qualitative edge and force multipliers, and allows its competitors an easier time to close the gap; when both sides have qualitative parity, the side with the quantitative superiority has the advantage.

The problem is that that isn't sustainable. Winning a war that bankrupts you is a hollow victory. If you're losing very expensive, difficult-to-produce vehicles to extremely cheap and expendable attacks, you've failed to adequately prepare for the war you're fighting. Cost effectiveness is absolutely a major factor in warfare--money is an object, because money represents limited resources. Eventually, you go bankrupt. Even if you only get halfway there, that's still a hell of a lot worse than winning said war without going halfway bankrupt.


Money is an abstraction for resources--whether you're talking about fuel or materials or man-hours and human resources. Maintaining a qualitative edge is good and all, but if you hamstring your economy in the long-term to do it, you're just setting yourself up for a fall over the horizon. It's kind of like Starcraft--the more money you spend on combat units, the less money you spend on building your economy. The guy who builds a bunch of tanks but doesn't do anything with them is going to lose to the guy who spends that money building a much bigger economy and eventually builds ten times as many tanks, because he can afford it.

The reason the US can afford its best-in-the-world military is because of its best-in-the-world economy. By contrast, Russia has a military that is far larger and more expensive than its economy can healthily support, and its economy is feeling the strain.

Sure, that's all true, but on the other hand, if you don't have a quantitative edge, then you need to maintain the qualitative edge and force multipliers, because that lets you do a lot more with less. And consider the USN in the Cold War: the High-Low mix was a thing for all branches. The USAF had the F-15/F-16, with the F-4 and A-7 in the Guard and reserves (and even as early as the 80s was already starting to transition the ANG to the F-16). The USN had the Spruances and Ticonderogas as the high end combatants and the Oliver Hazard Perry-class FFGs as the low. The Army was fielding Apache and Abrams alongside Cobra and Patton.

Of course now everything has been so upgraded that the US has had a high-high mix for the last 3 decades ( :V ) but what I'm trying to say is that if you abandon maintaining a qualitative edge on your competitors, while being unable to maintain a quantitative edge, that doesn't benefit you. Consider modern America's quantitative and qualitative edge. Against people with more stuff, the US has better, more effective stuff. Against people with better stuff, the quality gap is still very close and the US can drown them in more assets. And against everyone else, the US has the mostest of the bestest.

Sure, California could entirely abandon its qualitative edge. But then that lets the rest of the world catch up. And when your capabilities are even, the side with more stuff gets the advantage. Like don't get me wrong and don't strawman me: I'm not saying to abandon the economy and dump everything into the military. You need to balance and grow both. Otherwise you're going to end up like India, which makes the F-35 program and American defense procurement look sane - Indian economic planners completely focused on skipping industrialisation and moving India to a services and knowledge-based economy in the 90s, which resulted in the industrial sector being underdeveloped, which is why India now has problems in trying to build its defense sector, and is heavily reliant on purchasing foreign arms, because their own homemade stuff is not good enough and the Indian military flat out refuses to purchase Indian weapons.

There's also the political aspect: the public is not going to put up with funding hugely expensive tanks that get taken out by dirt-cheap IEDs constantly if it doesn't perceive the military as adapting to the problem and finding some way to not squander said tanks.
Point of order, but dirt cheap IEDs weren't constantly taking out Abrams. Taking out an Abrams with an IED required massive investments of manpower and material with superbig 2000 lbs IEDs, which is the sorta thing that gets noticed pretty quick (and of course, there's also the TUSK urban combat kit for Abrams that was sent to Iraq).


The point is not to give up the qualitative edge entirely; it's to avoid going to extremes of quality so that you get critically low quantity. The US would not have won the Battle of Midway if Yamamoto hadn't concocted a brilliant plan to squander his quantitative supremacy by dividing up his carriers and placing all but four of them too far away to be of any use in the main battle. The M4 Sherman was not the equal of the Tiger in direct combat, but the design of the M4 was such that the US could afford to build tons of them, ship them across the Atlantic, and support much larger numbers.

It sounds like the Sri Lankan navy, in your example, tried to fight an enemy with an edge in neither quality nor quantity, so no fucking duh it had so little success.

Militaries will use expensive munitions and vehicles for grossly disproportionately insignificant targets, but only when there are no better alternatives available, and even then, they'll only do this as long as it takes to figure out a way to avoid wasting so much money to accomplish the same task.
I feel I should point out that the Sherman wasn't really as poor a tank as WW2 pop culture makes it out to be, and the Jumbo had the same frontal armoring as the Tiger, and the 76mm gun was in fact pretty competitive as a tank gun... Also, your reference to Midway doesn't really help you as much, because overall at that period of time the qualititative gap between the USN and IJN wasn't that great. *shrug* Which just reinforces what people been saying: if you abandon the significant qualitative edge and downtech, that allows competitors to eventually close the gap with you and then that favors the people who can put more ships to sea, more planes in the air.

Sure, maybe you can't make a srsface blue water navy, but going to a high-low mix in order to preserve as much of the institutional knowledge, industrial capability, and qualitative edge is not a bad idea. It's just that you've come across as wanting to completely abandon the high for the low. And I like how you identify the problems the Sri Lankans had, without realising that your massive downteching puts California at risk of being in the same position. *shrug*

And cost is something debatable, isn;t it? The US has always preferred to spending money over spending lives. And it all depends on how you calculate it, doesn't it? Consider JDAMs and dumb bombs. A dumb bomb is about 2k USD, a JDAM is 25k. One might think it's a no-brainer to use the dumb bomb over a JDAM, but on the other hand, if one looks at Gulf War Air Power Survey, they did some tallying up: 28 PGMs dropped (700k), 26 hits, vs dumb bombs: 168 bombs dropped (336k), 2 hits. Which means that 700k was spent to get 26 hits, or about 26.9k/hit. Meanwhile, the "cheaper" bombs spent 168k for one hit. To get 26 hits with the same ratio of bombs to hits, that means you'd need to increase by 13 times, meaning you drop 2,184 bombs to get 26 hits, which costs you 4,368,000. That's not counting the costs of another 144 sorties and associated losses, btw.

Trying to tie everything to cost-effectiveness in a vacuum leads you to a penny-wise, pound foolish approach.

The issue is that, while the vehicle that the M2 Bradley ended up as was successful, the M2 Bradley was never supposed to be an American BMP. It was supposed to be a successor to the world-renowned APC. A cheap, reliable, simple, and effective vehicle meant for transporting a bunch of troops from point A to point B with modest armor protection and a machine gun for fire support.

The light tank/half-APC that the M2 ended up being was very much not that vehicle. And because it wasn't, you got the US military constantly using Humvees in situations they were never designed for, which did get soldiers killed. Furthermore, no matter how you looked at it, the development process for the M2 Bradley was rather farcical.
No, it was always supposed to be an IFV and an American BMP. @Apocal has a good post on that over on SB. Saying the M113 had modest armor protection is overselling it: it's pretty vulnerable to artillery, and you can penetrate the frontal armor with HMG fire (and that's not even getting into the variants which had aluminium-magnesium alloy armor, that's like soaking your body armor in gasoline before putting it on :o). An APC transports troops to a point away from the objective and then pulls back because it's suppressed by HMG fire from the strongpoint. An IFV, like the Bradley, transports troops to the objective, and stays there and supports them with the autocannon, and it suppresses the strongpoint, because to deal with an IFV you need to break out AT weapons.

And quite frankly, the M113 isn't really that much more protected vs the Hummvee. It's hardly more survivable. You send M113s into the same places Hummvees were going in Iraq and Afghanistan, they're going to get just as dead.
 
Forgot about this and I wanted to chime in:

Keeping up the research and cost efficient experimentation is a good idea. Building billion dollar nuclear ultra-quiet submarines when far cheaper and easier to maintain diesel-electric non-exotic-hulled submarines will work just fine for decades doesn't make sense.

I agree to a certain extent, but it really depends on what California's aims in the future are. Every nation that runs SSNs instead of SSKs goes with SSNs because of the mobility and range advantage they have over SSKs. Conversely, all the nations that run SSKs aren't doing the long range patrols American and Russian SSNs do. When your SSKs are only going to be operating in your backyard, you don't need them to have a nuke reactor and be able to cross the world on a single hop without ever surfacing.

So the question of whether CA should continue with SSNs or go to SSKs is going to depend on CA's interests. Is the California Navy going to make like the US and fight wars in other people's backyards? Then you're going to have to stick with SSNs for that strategic mobility. Is the California Maritime Self Defense Force going to just patrol its own waters and deter foreign aggression? Then SSKs make sense for that posture.

This is basically why the US spends $2.35 while other nations get by with spending $1.40: you can get by with spending a lot lot less if you don't plan to fight outside your own backyard.
 
I'd point out that one thing CA might do, and this might gain cooperation with some of the other big powers, is start really pushing WTO style organizations, possibly with some modified form of UN-- Europe for example isn't stupid and many Europeans will note how it was European conflicts that eventually destroyed tehir nations, and how, ultimately the Colonial system of economic development was quite simply inferior to free trade.

Indeed, if nothing else such organisations would arise more or less as de facto ones out of the need for California to communicate and coordinate with the rest of the world.


Now, as for technological development-- Seaplanes. There are a fair number of commercial and private sea plane designs around, and the fact is that it's not nearly the challenge building a modern fighter is--but it provides you with the ability to use unprepared harbors and such, rather tahn demanding big airfields everywhere. Eventually, of coures, they'd be rendered obsolete as conventional aircraft find more and more airfields, but for the short--1-2 decade term, a robust seaplane design would be very useful for cargo/passanger transport.

+1 very good thinking about seaplanes.

The lack of infrastructure in the rest of the world is very stark.

Another possibilty is steam powered cars. The fact is that modern steam designs are pretty damned close to IC engines in effeciency and have few of the dangers of old biolers, plus, they're also less dependent on high grade fuel.

I think there will be much less emphasis on cars as an industry.

With the foresight, the fine rail network will not be dismantled as it was OTL in the first half of the 20th century, as it will be planned for electrification from the start.

Intra-city travel will be much more by light rail, and inter-city railroads will be pre-prepared for high-speed trains.

You want anyway to reduce mass use of private cars to stave off climate change.

(also not sure what you mean by "modern steam designs are pretty damned close to IC engines in effeciency", if you're referring to steam turbines they're for large things like ships)
 
Sure, maybe you can't make a srsface blue water navy, but going to a high-low mix in order to preserve as much of the institutional knowledge, industrial capability, and qualitative edge is not a bad idea. It's just that you've come across as wanting to completely abandon the high for the low. And I like how you identify the problems the Sri Lankans had, without realising that your massive downteching puts California at risk of being in the same position. *shrug*
Well, putting in clarifications to statements works only if others don't gloss over them.

It should be obvious, that if you keep producing something that needs 2,2 bilion $ and 3 years to launch and finish for a job that can be accomplished by something cheaper with similar result, someone ,somewhere made some bad calls.
And the US as a whole has been sitting in this mentality of not just High-High, but only HIGH, despite this approaches obvious flaws it was already suffering for. And thus Cali was transported with just that solution to the past.
It got so bad to the point that when USN decided to fix this, and order new ships, all it amounted to was the Freedom and Independence class ships, that cannot in any way or form, come close to any currently operating Frigate or Corvette. While also costing much more than any of those ships, and not offering the technological superiority.


So the question of whether CA should continue with SSNs or go to SSKs is going to depend on CA's interests. Is the California Navy going to make like the US and fight wars in other people's backyards?
If we consider Calis need to protect its merchant marine its bound to require some assets and friendly bases.
 
The problem is that that isn't sustainable. Winning a war that bankrupts you is a hollow victory. If you're losing very expensive, difficult-to-produce vehicles to extremely cheap and expendable attacks, you've failed to adequately prepare for the war you're fighting. Cost effectiveness is absolutely a major factor in warfare--money is an object, because money represents limited resources. Eventually, you go bankrupt. Even if you only get halfway there, that's still a hell of a lot worse than winning said war without going halfway bankrupt.
Down teching is a really awesome way to ensure that taking expensive losses to dirt cheap weapons is a regularity. The U.S. dealt with the threat of things like I.E.Ds with more effective armour and sensor systems, not by cranking out a bunch of vintage M113s.

This is a reality that extends to just about every area of combat you've mentioned. Trying to swarm the Pacific with cheap, low tech destroyers is more expensive and more likely to produce costly losses and less likely to get the job done than a few Burkes with good engines, good radar and long range offensive systems. Going back to cheap manned aerial recon is going to lose recon capabilities that no amount of Tucanos or whatever can replace.

I try to avoid arguments from psychology as a general rule, but having an extreme qualitative advantage is also going to reduce the illusion that the Californians can be countered. A warship with really good guns and armour is an understandable threat that British, French, Spanish, Dutch and German ship builders will try their best to counter. Trying to counter AshMs and cruise missiles with 19th century tech would just be considered a waste of effort.
 
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Down teching is a really awesome way to ensure that taking expensive losses to dirt cheap weapons is a regularity. The U.S. dealt with the threat of things like I.E.Ds with more effective armour and sensor systems, not by cranking out a bunch of vintage M113s.
Well they wouldn't even need to build any new M113's since California has hundreds of them just sitting in the Sierra Army depot.
 
I also think it's a good idea to keep a reserve of cutting edge weapons just in case. Nobody is saying to outfit everything best of the best, but as our researchers keep pushing towards the future, we can't let any areas of technology suffer. Also, remember that money only holds the value that the populace think it does. Since we will pretty much have the world by the metaphorical balls industrially, it's possible we could make our currency the highest value trade currency in the world, which does have advantages. Entice all the greatest minds in the world to come here not only for the support but also for the high pay and standard of living. This last bit might be a bit controversial, but do you think it would be possible to convince inventors from history over to us rather than their home countries to doubly take advantage of their genius, but to also deny it to the other countries?
 
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I also think it's a good idea to keep a reserve of cutting edge weapons just in case. Nobody is saying to outfit everything best of the best,
To reiterate on this: if you have an AT squad that's outfitted with only the MLAW as anti-armor, one that has a single Javelin and the rest MLAW and one that's all Javelin, the step from the first to the second is by far the bigger jump in capability because your enemy will always run into at least one Javelin and has to expect dealing with that.

(Manpack AT weapons being chosen purely for the sake of example, this applies to basically every weapon system.)
 
So the question of whether CA should continue with SSNs or go to SSKs is going to depend on CA's interests. Is the California Navy going to make like the US and fight wars in other people's backyards? Then you're going to have to stick with SSNs for that strategic mobility. Is the California Maritime Self Defense Force going to just patrol its own waters and deter foreign aggression? Then SSKs make sense for that posture.

Depends on CA's future foreign policy (if they split from the US). Either one is definitely good for scaring the shit out of the Great Naval Powers with a Fleet in Being boogieman 40 years before Mahan writes his "Magnum Opus" but a Nuke sub won't really have much of an effect unless they are spotted periodically in open ocean sneaking up on other ships. Meaning that they would be in visual range of the poor schmuck they choose to inspire that "We're watching you" vibe.

Unless we start seeing diesel boats with actual cannon on their hulls again, they might be seen as extremely long-legged scouts that can't be seen since torpedoes won't be a thing till 1866. If they showcase how deadly a mk. 48 is on Roosevelt's Traveling World's FairTM​ it'd inspire possible weapons to be used against themselves in the future.
 
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Admittedly California is never remotely going to have the massive resources, manpower and money that the up-time United States had for its military but it doesn't need to nor does it need to reveal its subs even exist if it doesn't wish to.

After all it would likely be a chilling effect to have ships and fleets sunk without any sign of threat whenever anyone goes against what California's wishes.
 
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After all it would likely be a chilling effect to have ships and fleets sunk without any sign of threat whenever anyone goes against what California's wishes.
Except for the fact that submarines and their operators were seen with nothing but contempt for a long period of time, even by people that considered them good tools of war.
If Cali uses subs with great effect, and then after the conflict is ended, ships start disappearing for whatever myriad of reasons, who do you think will be blamed for it?
 
On the diesel submarine front there are two Foxtrot class submarines that are museums in California, one in Long Beach and one in San Diego. The sub's aren't in the best condition, the one in San Diego almost sank when it pump's failed, but they could be cut apart to give engineers an idea of how to actually build a diesel sub.
 
Except for the fact that submarines and their operators were seen with nothing but contempt for a long period of time, even by people that considered them good tools of war.
If Cali uses subs with great effect, and then after the conflict is ended, ships start disappearing for whatever myriad of reasons, who do you think will be blamed for it?

Admitted wasn't until the civil war that it was 1864 a sub even sank another ship and that sub never returned. It 1866 before a submarine would successfully dive, cruise underwater, and resurface under the control of the crew and 1885 before the first practical armed submarine(though armed with only one torpedo).

Not sure said period contempt wasn't exactly unwarranted given how impractical the technology was from 1620 when the reliably known submersible was built to 1885 when the first practical armed submarine was built and it wasn't until the 1900s when subs started widespread or routine use by navies.
 
On the diesel submarine front there are two Foxtrot class submarines that are museums in California, one in Long Beach and one in San Diego. The sub's aren't in the best condition, the one in San Diego almost sank when it pump's failed, but they could be cut apart to give engineers an idea of how to actually build a diesel sub.
How did two Soviet subs end up in California, of all places?
 
How did two Soviet subs end up in California, of all places?

Basically, the Soviet Union fell and the Russian Federation needed cash in a hurry.

B-39 was decommissioned on 1 April 1994 and sold to Finland. She made her way from there through a series of sales to Vancouver Island in 1996 and to Seattle, Washington, in 2002 before arriving in San Diego, California, on 22 April 2005 and becoming an exhibit of the Maritime Museum of San Diego. During her sequence of owners she acquired the names "Black Widow"[citation needed]​ and "Cobra," neither of which she had during her commissioned career.
When B-39 was made a museum the shroud around her attack periscope was cut away where it passes through her control room. As built, a Foxtrot's periscopes are only accessible from her conning tower, which is off-limits in the museum. With the shroud cut away, tourists can look through the partially raised periscope (which is directed toward the USS Midway museum, some 500 yards (460 m) away). However, the unidentified and unexplained change gives the false impression that one periscope could be used from the control room.
At one point B-39 was slated to be sunk to create an offshore diving reef,[3] but an outcry from teachers and enthusiasts have ensured the sub will stay put for the time being.[4]
In 2012, B-39 was used as a stage for the movie Phantom.

[B-427] was decommissioned by the Russian Navy in December 1994.[1] She was one of the last three Foxtrot-class submarines to serve in the Russian Pacific Fleet.[1] The boat was acquired by a group of Australian businessmen on a three-year lease purchase contract, and was towed from Vladivostok on 25 July 1995.[1][2] En route to Sydney, the tow company claimed that the deal for the Russian Navy to cover the cost of the tow was invalid, and claimed that A$150,000 in towing expenses was required.[2][clarification needed]​ The submarine arrived in Sydney on 31 August, and after some modifications, was loaned to the Australian National Maritime Museum for display as a museum vessel under the designation "Foxtrot-540" (the submarine's last pennant number while in service).[1] As the submarine was still the property of the Russian Navy for the duration of the lease, an Australian ex-submariner was commissioned into the Russian Navy to command and look after Foxtrot-540, with the boat's former engineering officer assisting.[1] The submarine was in near-operational condition; the diesel generators and electrical storage system, ballast tanks, and hotel load equipment were functional, and Russian personnel travelled to Australia to teach museum staff about maintenance and operation of the boat.[1] Foxtrot-540 spent three years berthed at the museum, attracting over 700,000 visitors during this period (including intelligence analysts from multiple nations during the first weeks on display).[1]
In May 1998, the submarine was loaded onto a heavy lift ship and relocated to Long Beach, California,[1] sailing from Sydney on 31 May and arriving on 25 June.[citation needed]​ On arrival, she was berthed next to RMS Queen Mary, and opened to the public on 14 July under the designation "Podvodnaya Lodka B-427 Scorpion".[3] On 19 April 2011, the company operating Queen Mary (Delaware North) announced that they had acquired Scorpion, and were planning to increase attendance at both attractions through combined ticketing and joint marketing campaigns.[3] The Scorpion Submarine is owned by NEWCO Pty Ltd LLC and is on a long term lease to Queen Mary.[citation needed]​
On November 2012 the Long Beach Post reported that the vessel was discovered to have flooding and as a result was listing 24 degrees to the starboard side. As of 2016 the submarine will not be reopening, and it is rumoured that the it will leave the Queen Mary property as part of development plans for the Queen Mary grounds.[4]
 
Except for the fact that submarines and their operators were seen with nothing but contempt for a long period of time, even by people that considered them good tools of war.
If Cali uses subs with great effect, and then after the conflict is ended, ships start disappearing for whatever myriad of reasons, who do you think will be blamed for it?
Deny, Deny, Deny, Deny, Deny, Deny, Deny. I mean, that's what every government does when they perform that kind of stuff right?
 
Question for the OP. Is there any effort to prevent downtimers from learning 20'th century teach from libraries and the public internet cafes and whatnot?
 
Well, putting in clarifications to statements works only if others don't gloss over them.

It should be obvious, that if you keep producing something that needs 2,2 bilion $ and 3 years to launch and finish for a job that can be accomplished by something cheaper with similar result, someone ,somewhere made some bad calls.
And the US as a whole has been sitting in this mentality of not just High-High, but only HIGH, despite this approaches obvious flaws it was already suffering for. And thus Cali was transported with just that solution to the past.
It got so bad to the point that when USN decided to fix this, and order new ships, all it amounted to was the Freedom and Independence class ships, that cannot in any way or form, come close to any currently operating Frigate or Corvette. While also costing much more than any of those ships, and not offering the technological superiority.
LCS not being able to match up to other peoples' corvette or frigate is not really an issue when the USN has 22 CGs and 62 DDGs; that's more serious face warships than many navies have ships, total. Plus, people have heavily armed warships because they ain't the USN with 10 CVNs and carrier fighters.

The point of LCS is that it's a long range oceangoing corvette for MCM and ASW that can also do the 2nd line tasks a Burke is wasted on; you dont need to spend a 1.8 billion dollar DDG on watching a lifeboat with pirates, or sending a 2 billion dollar CG on counterpiracy. Also the most expensive LCS variant is like 500 million dollars, vs the 781 million dollar price of the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate while being more capable on account that all its shit works, vs the Perry which is "can't see shit, can't hear shot, can't shoot shit." And don't trust the stated prices of the Eurofrigates; european navies do a lot of accounting tricks to make their ships seem cheaper than they are.

If we consider Calis need to protect its merchant marine its bound to require some assets and friendly bases.
Yes, but you don't use subs for protection of merchant shipping, you use cutters, frigates and destroyers.
 
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