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A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850

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I've got a question. Will the SS Jeremiah O'Brien make an appearance, because she was on one of her rare cruises that take her out of the Bay Area one of the only fully operational and restored Liberty ships on earth should be tied up to pier 45.
 
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Midnighter13 said:
ensuring that California has enough ships with enough cheap weapons options spread across the vastness of the Pacific to protect their future trade routes, merchant ships, and trade partners.
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That means a couple autocannons on each merchant ship--Californian merchant ships will be LOLWTF fast and LOLHUEG compared to Local ships, even if they engineer smaller versions. The Locals might not be able to move goods away from the docks quickly enough to handle Californian unload rates FFS!

Midnighter13 said:
The Baltimore (and Gearing) fits that role to a Tee.
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I recommend thicker hull plating (not armor! Hull plating!) just in case some idiots take a potshot with a rifle or something.

Instant Sunrise said:
wearing fairly little clothing compared to 19th c. Europe.
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If only Natural Selection was so kind as to give these imbeciles heatstroke...
 
DarthGamer said:
I don't know, I feel like the slavers are being handed the idiot ball even more than they already have just to drive a point. They have eyes, I can't think they'd walk into something that they'd know they would die for. It also doesnt seem to serve a literary purpose. Congrats, Californian's hate slavery even more than they already do?
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Their reaction isn't far removed from reality. Keep in mind when popular sovereignty became a thing in 1854 and Kansas was voting on whether to be a free or slave state pro-slavery Southerners invaded the state, jammed through a slavery constitution in a sham election and kicked off a long-running insurgency war between pro and anti-slavery state governments that lasted until the end of the broader American Civil War. The Underground Railroad was one of the reasons they pushed for the Fugitive Slave Act, a law that gave slave-catchers the power to forcefully deputize local law enforcement officers in any state to reclaim escaped slaves, which led to a number of incidents where innocent people were dragged back in chains including a few full-blown riots in Northern cities by people trying to stop them/local law enforcement not lifting a finger to protect overbearing slavecatchers. Considering the South has just been hit with an untouchable juggernaut with more power, wealth and people than they could possibly imagine along with the means to whisk escaped slaves out of their grasp in a matter of hours I'm surprised they haven't tried something like this sooner.
 
DarthGamer said:
I don't know, I feel like the slavers are being handed the idiot ball even more than they already have just to drive a point. They have eyes, I can't think they'd walk into something that they'd know they would die for. It also doesnt seem to serve a literary purpose. Congrats, Californian's hate slavery even more than they already do?
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Like how they failed to see that constantly pissing off everyone in the North who wasn't a outright abolitionist by whining about how slavery was a social good and would be phased out, then when some plans were made to help that, outright throwing a temper tantrum?

Or how leaving the Union when you're outnumbered and out industrialized by your neighbor, with the closest thing to a ally (Great Britain), probably not going to support you guys?

Or my personal favorite, how they failed to realize that their constant pushing and pushing of slavery was doing nothing but ticking off everyone who wasn't in the South, and then finally realizing that the chickens had come home to roost in 1861.

Fact is, the Southern culture was built on basically the white race being a hegemony of constant favor of stomping down on their slaves. And responding to any slights on their "honor" with immediate and violent retaliation.

So no, it's not a idiot ball, they would try shit like that in a heartbeat. This is just them trying it with the 500lb Doberman who's been bred specifically to chew off the balls of anyone who messes with him.
 
LHB said:
Considering the South has just been hit with an untouchable juggernaut with more power, wealth and people than they could possibly imagine along with the means to whisk escaped slaves out of their grasp in a matter of hours I'm surprised they haven't tried something like this sooner.
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As of 2018 California had a population of 39.8 million according to estimates. In 1850 the entire United States had a population of just over 23 million. All they are doing is kicking the hornets nest.
 
California itself is also so far away that it's seen as more of an abstract threat like Britain is.

The Camp Springs Green Zone is a much more immediate and accessible threat to them.
 
asqwerty3345 said:
As of 2018 California had a population of 39.8 million according to estimates. In 1850 the entire United States had a population of just over 23 million. All they are doing is kicking the hornets nest.
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And California in 1850, pre-ISOT, had a population of roughly 92k people. As incredible as the technology they've brought is what's probably even harder for Southerners, or anyone else in the US for that matter, to wrap their brain around is California suddenly going from having just enough people to qualify for statehood to having more people than the entire United States.
 
Night_stalker said:
Like how they failed to see that constantly pissing off everyone in the North who wasn't a outright abolitionist by whining about how slavery was a social good and would be phased out, then when some plans were made to help that, outright throwing a temper tantrum?

Or how leaving the Union when you're outnumbered and out industrialized by your neighbor, with the closest thing to a ally (Great Britain), probably not going to support you guys?

Or my personal favorite, how they failed to realize that their constant pushing and pushing of slavery was doing nothing but ticking off everyone who wasn't in the South, and then finally realizing that the chickens had come home to roost in 1861.

Fact is, the Southern culture was built on basically the white race being a hegemony of constant favor of stomping down on their slaves. And responding to any slights on their "honor" with immediate and violent retaliation.

So no, it's not a idiot ball, they would try shit like that in a heartbeat. This is just them trying it with the 500lb Doberman who's been bred specifically to chew off the balls of anyone who messes with him.
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All of which I agree with but the consequences of those actions are not nearly as immediate as walking into a group of armed guards and starting a gunfight. People tend to be much more aware of short-term consequences to themselves and most slavers and slavecatchers would have an attachment to staying alive. This would be like a street gang charging guns blazing at a police station
 
DarthGamer said:
All of which I agree with but the consequences of those actions are not nearly as immediate as walking into a group of armed guards and starting a gunfight. People tend to be much more aware of short-term consequences to themselves and most slavers and slavecatchers would have an attachment to staying alive. This would be like a street gang charging guns blazing at a police station
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Given the ideological (and at least partly religious--see Evolution and Homosexuality for salient problems) nature of this conflict? This is much more like suicide bombers howling certain phrases while ramming a bus into the front gates of some US outpost/embassy/whatever building.
 
If there is one thing California lacks, it is strategic weapons and the ability to deploy them. It has Cargo planes, lots of fighters from the Navy, Marine Corps, and CANG, helicopters and VTOL's. It has the most powerful fleet in the world but unless they want to start pushing daisy cutters out the back of C-17's California needs a strategic bomber. Another thing is that none of the air forces ICBM's are stationed in California, besides those that might be at Vandenberg for testing, or any of the Navies boomers. This leaves California without a nuclear first or second strike option or really any long range, quick method of striking a target. While there would more than likely strong backlash to any program to build a California A-bomb, a conventional ICBM could be something that could be used as the proverbial big stick. Also it wouldn't be that hard for Musk and his lot to cook up home brew ICBM's in the basement. Prompt Global Strike - Wikipedia Trident (missile) - Wikipedia
 
asqwerty3345 said:
If there is one thing California lacks, it is strategic weapons and the ability to deploy them. It has Cargo planes, lots of fighters from the Navy, Marine Corps, and CANG, helicopters and VTOL's. It has the most powerful fleet in the world but unless they want to start pushing daisy cutters out the back of C-17's California needs a strategic bomber. Another thing is that none of the air forces ICBM's are stationed in California, besides those that might be at Vandenberg for testing, or any of the Navies boomers. This leaves California without a nuclear first or second strike option or really any long range, quick method of striking a target. While there would more than likely strong backlash to any program to build a California A-bomb, a conventional ICBM could be something that could be used as the proverbial big stick. Also it wouldn't be that hard for Musk and his lot to cook up home brew ICBM's in the basement. Prompt Global Strike - Wikipedia Trident (missile) - Wikipedia
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Erm dude we just saw them launch a satellite.

An ICBM after that is like the Space Race done backwards, i.e. "A little less fuel spent please" and some ability to correct the course mid and late-flight, presumably using the New GPS.
 
DarthGamer said:
All of which I agree with but the consequences of those actions are not nearly as immediate as walking into a group of armed guards and starting a gunfight. People tend to be much more aware of short-term consequences to themselves and most slavers and slavecatchers would have an attachment to staying alive. This would be like a street gang charging guns blazing at a police station
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They've also probably never actually seen Californian automatic weapons in action and would be assuming any sort of gunfight would be happening in terms of 1850s rifled muskets and pistols, not 21st century weapons. They also probably assumed any nonwhite security guards wouldn't be a threat to them; after all these are the same people who went to war genuinely believing one Southerner could whip ten dirty Yanks in a fight no problem and that's them talking about white Northerners. If any of the security personnel weren't white, which is pretty likely, that hubris would be multiplied exponentially.
 
LHB said:
They've also probably never actually seen Californian automatic weapons in action and would be assuming any sort of gunfight would be happening in terms of 1850s rifled muskets and pistols, not 21st century weapons. They also probably assumed any nonwhite security guards wouldn't be a threat to them; after all these are the same people who went to war genuinely believing one Southerner could whip ten dirty Yanks in a fight no problem and that's them talking about white Northerners. If any of the security personnel weren't white, which is pretty likely, that hubris would be multiplied exponentially.
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This sort of hubris and "WARRIOR SPIRIT" sounds about right to me... and would explain why I loathe the Confederacy... for being like the Imperial Japanese.

(If I didn't think this was legit and wasn't planning on exploiting it to the max, I wouldn't be titling the volume of SI Archives dedicated to the US Civil War "The Thin Brown Line")
 
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asqwerty3345 said:
If there is one thing California lacks, it is strategic weapons and the ability to deploy them. It has Cargo planes, lots of fighters from the Navy, Marine Corps, and CANG, helicopters and VTOL's. It has the most powerful fleet in the world but unless they want to start pushing daisy cutters out the back of C-17's California needs a strategic bomber. Another thing is that none of the air forces ICBM's are stationed in California, besides those that might be at Vandenberg for testing, or any of the Navies boomers. This leaves California without a nuclear first or second strike option or really any long range, quick method of striking a target. While there would more than likely strong backlash to any program to build a California A-bomb, a conventional ICBM could be something that could be used as the proverbial big stick. Also it wouldn't be that hard for Musk and his lot to cook up home brew ICBM's in the basement. Prompt Global Strike - Wikipedia Trident (missile) - Wikipedia
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Why do they need nuclear weapons? They'd actually be worthless as they would not serve as a deterrent, Californian's are probably not in the mood to nuke things for trivial reasons, and they can already wipe out any threat they have. With that CVN, they have a much more selective strike capability across any important part of the world and the world of the 1850's is just too slow to necessitate a response time in the minutes. The strategic bomber might be useful just because the lack of a Panama Canal would make shuffling the fleet around difficult however. But it's not like they're going to be seeing the need to carpet bomb anything anytime soon so I would expect something smaller than any of the current bombers with a focus on range.

Guardian54 said:
Given the ideological (and at least partly religious--see Evolution and Homosexuality for salient problems) nature of this conflict? This is much more like suicide bombers howling certain phrases while ramming a bus into the front gates of some US outpost/embassy/whatever building.
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There's a big difference in the motivations between modern day suicide bombers and 19th century slavers. Slavery is just as much of a monetary force as ideological for these people and there is no gain (imagined or otherwise) for them to literally run into armed resistance. Remember, most of these men are cowards and I don't expect them to actually walk to their deaths.

LHB said:
They've also probably never actually seen Californian automatic weapons in action and would be assuming any sort of gunfight would be happening in terms of 1850s rifled muskets and pistols, not 21st century weapons. They also probably assumed any nonwhite security guards wouldn't be a threat to them; after all these are the same people who went to war genuinely believing one Southerner could whip ten dirty Yanks in a fight no problem and that's them talking about white Northerners. If any of the security personnel weren't white, which is pretty likely, that hubris would be multiplied exponentially.
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I could see that they did not expect 21st century lethality however the base seemed like a military installation, I can't imagine they'd want to pick a fight with that even if all the people had were muskets. And I don't know about that, IIRC the Union arming Blacks was a big Confederate boogieman during the war. They probably aware that they'll be just as dead whether it be a white guy or a black one shooting them. Running into a whole base of armed men seems lemming levels of suicidal here.
 
DarthGamer said:
I could see that they did not expect 21st century lethality however the base seemed like a military installation, I can't imagine they'd want to pick a fight with that even if all the people had were muskets. And I don't know about that, IIRC the Union arming Blacks was a big Confederate boogieman during the war. They probably aware that they'll be just as dead whether it be a white guy or a black one shooting them. Running into a whole base of armed men seems lemming levels of suicidal here.
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This is what a military installation looked like in the 1850s:




By the standards of the Southerners making the assault a fenced-off airport with guards on patrol doesn't even pass muster as even remotely formidable or obviously military. For someone from the modern day what they did was obviously stupid and suicidal but for someone who has never even seen a modern military installation or security there's little reason they'd assume it's an obviously military installation.

As to the racism of Southern elites and arming Black Americans goes on one hand they were afraid cause that could spell the end of slavery but on the other hand they also dismissed the threat posted by Black troops well into the Civil War until Black units proved they were every bit as capable as any other soldiers on the battlefield. The idea of armed Black Americans terrified them but they also, as was documented, held the contradictory idea that they couldn't possibly be a threat.
 
Instant Sunrise said:
There are 20 B-52H's, 2 B-1's, and 1 B-2 as part of the 419th flight test squadron at Edwards AFB.
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Well that shows me for only looking at the active bomb squadrons.

Guardian54 said:
Erm dude we just saw them launch a satellite.
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I know, I was just referring specifically to the US's nuclear tipped ICBM's which none are based in California.

DarthGamer said:
Why do they need nuclear weapons? They'd actually be worthless as they would not serve as a deterrent, Californian's are probably not in the mood to nuke things for trivial reasons, and they can already wipe out any threat they have. With that CVN, they have a much more selective strike capability across any important part of the world and the world of the 1850's is just too slow to necessitate a response time in the minutes. The strategic bomber might be useful just because the lack of a Panama Canal would make shuffling the fleet around difficult however. But it's not like they're going to be seeing the need to carpet bomb anything anytime soon so I would expect something smaller than any of the current bombers with a focus on range.
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But a CVN can't be everywhere at once and an ICBM, even one without a nuclear warhead could be the sword of Damocles they need to be the global superpower. If someone wants to play hard ball you can drop an non explosive warhead in the Thames river outside Parliament to turn their bowels into water.
 
asqwerty3345 said:
But a CVN can't be everywhere at once and an ICBM, even one without a nuclear warhead could be the sword of Damocles they need to be the global superpower. If someone wants to play hard ball you can drop an non explosive warhead in the Thames river outside Parliament to turn their bowels into water.
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soooooooo a V2 but bigger?
 
Zap Rowsdower said:
The kind that wanted to Westernize them so they'd convert more easily and work on the sugar plantations.
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The sugar plantations postdated the missionaries by quite some time.

The initial missionaries seem to have been mostly true believers, and somewhat idealistic, within their own worldview, which yes, is kind of weird, to us.

The mistake was sending their kids back to the US east coast for school, resulting in a pseudo-aristocratic class of people with less emotional and personal investment in hawaii, but inheriting positions of influence from their parents (Missionaries gained several important advisory roles to the Hawaiian monarchy - by being literate and present, if nothing else.) That's when the economic exploitation went into full steam.



Surfing was tied into the religious/mystic caste system that had overtaken Hawaii by the time of contact, IIRC, and at least some forms of it were reserved to the nobility. So they may have had an actual religious motive for not liking it.
 
asqwerty3345 said:
I don't think they should write off their one fast-battleship they have sitting right in their lap.
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You mean the one fast Battleship that has its 406ers demilled, welded in place, spiked and lacking in shells, trained personnel, fuel oil(Not Marine diesel/Jp8 but honest to god Fuel Oil)? That Fast Battleship?

There was a study after Desert Storm about getting the Iowa's back in fighting shape after they had been sold off as museums.

The conclusion was that Wisconsin was the only one that was still viable. To get her up and running the USN would have to SCRAP the 3 other Iowas, the South Dakotas and North Carolina to get enough parts to get Whisky going for an estimated 4 months of operational life before something would wear out and break that couldn't be fixed or replaced.
 
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