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A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850

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Japan will be a good trade partner, if they can pull it off. China is also something to seriously look into, though the beginning civil war is going to make that tricky. Still, California is clearly operating as a separate state here, with its own foreign and economic policy. Still not sure why they are bothering with pretending to be part of the US. Not like they are getting anything out of it anyway. No federal funds, no military, no protection, nothing at all that could justify California having to obey American laws (which they are ignoring anyway). And now they are dealing with terrorists on top of that? Quite surprised that Californians are still operating in the US at all by this point. Not like the US is anything other than a hostile neighbor with territorial claims over CA right now. They sure as hell aren't the actual government. They made that quite clear when they disbanded the Marines.

India is an interesting place for California to look at right now. Its not yet officially British, but still effectively ruled by the British East India Trading Company. Depending on how California wants to play it, they could either compete with, or invest in the HEIC, and turn India into a valuable trading partner (while weakening British influence there). That might be enough to butterfly away the Indian Rebellion of 1857, which in turn might mean Britain would never assert total control over the subcontinent.
 
Guardian54 said:
Self-flagellating rose-tinted glasses are the problem, methinks.

That and weeabooism left over from decades of treating Japan as a bastion (complete with a big moat) against the Red Menace in the Far East.

That being said Qing China was not THAT much better... though they never did anything so retarded as sakoku they're still quite authoritarian (though nothing compared to Japanese totalitarianism, mostly due to sheer size).
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That and the possibility that with increased trade, especially with the massively more liberal California, could make the problem self-correcting as the populace educates itself and resources become more readily available, resulting in potentially either reforms or revolutions. In either case, California would not need to expend significant additional effort to resolve the geopolitical issues. There is also the objective of butterflying the conflicts that lead to the Second World War, something more readily achieved when they have an easier way of getting a read on the political situations within Japan.
 
Midnighter13 said:
Still not sure why they are bothering with pretending to be part of the US. Not like they are getting anything out of it anyway.
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They are attempting to stay mainly for the benefit of the downtime US rather than California, mostly to avoid creating precedent for state to leave the US as well trying the whole "change the system from the inside" angle.
 
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I just binge read all the chapters and i've had two thoughts: The first one is the Siemens was founded in 1847 so will the uptime Siemens make contact with its downtime founder and home office in Berlin, Kingdom of Prussia. The second is that there are two capital ship museums. The USS Midway (which i used to live across the bay from before going off to college) and the USS Iowa (which i have visited several times). Of the two of these ships it would be quicker to get the Midway back into service while the Iowa would need at least a year and a half in yard with a large amount of attention and factories being tooled up just for her to get her back to service. The reason why the Iowa should be pressed back into service is that in 1850 where using a cruise missile to destroy a wooden warship would be a massive waste of resources, a good old fashion gun boat like the Iowa could single handily take on a fleet from any country in the world and utterly annihilate in both a quick and cost effective fashion with just its 5 inch secondaries. Using a 16 inch HE shell on even a ship of the line would be horrifying case over kill but to support a landing or to bombard the kinds of fortifications that were popular in this era they would be perfect. This is not to mention the other museum ships that could be pressed into service like the SS Jeremiah O'Brien, a Liberty ship which is still functional and does cruises which means it could be pressed into service immediately, the two Victory ships, the SS Lane Victory and SS Red Oak (I would guess they would need yard if they can be returned to service) and the USS Hornet but by 2018 she has been a museum for 20 years so she might take more to be returned to service than the Iowa. There are a few other ships spread about in California but these are mostly light support vessels and a light house ship so they might have a use but I've only mentioned the big ones I can think of.
 
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I have been through the Iowa and I've actually talked to people who work on the Iowa museum on the discord for this TL, and she's not really in a position to be able to move on her own power.
 
The difference between doing diplomacy with Japan and dealing with the US government is the US government and the South are much closer to home, actively trying to cause trouble and have elements actively opposed to cooperating with the Californians. Japan, by contrast, can potentially be influenced with promises of aid combined with protection from unequal treaties and is thus easier to carrot and stick around.

kaazmiz said:
Preposterous? I think not!
IRL mines were using glass capsules filled with nitroglycerin for a long time.
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Which is also why mine-laying ships employing that tended to get sunk by their own payloads quite often. That's a rather critical fact you left out there. Then again you also seem to think that wood works better than steel for taking damage, implying that you'd have recommended to the Royal Navy or Kaiserliche Marine to stick with wooden ships at Jutland instead of modern battleplate. You really seem to want to own the libtard cucks so hard on top of the deus vult shit from earlier in thread you're willing to actively distort or misrepresent the facts.
 
Instant Sunrise said:
I have been through the Iowa and I've actually talked to people who work on the Iowa museum on the discord for this TL, and she's not really in a position to be able to move on her own power.
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I learned the same when i visited last so that what i assumed she would need over a year in a completely dedicated yard with thousands of yard workers working shifts to return her to combat readiness.
 
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At this rate, you're better off just building a new boat entirely if overkill is of such concern. In such a case, a few gunboat destroyers and light cruisers should do the job, not that they're likely to be planned, nevermind built.
 
CompassJimbo said:
At this rate, you're better off just building a new boat entirely if overkill is of such concern. In such a case, a few gunboat destroyers and light cruisers should do the job, not that they're likely to be planned, nevermind built.
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Especially since the Iowa class were incredibly manpower intensive to operate.
 
CompassJimbo said:
At this rate, you're better off just building a new boat entirely if overkill is of such concern. In such a case, a few gunboat destroyers and light cruisers should do the job, not that they're likely to be planned, nevermind built.
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Overkill is a problem against any warship she might face with her main battery, but against fortifications, like perhaps the Forts in the port of Charleston which could be smashed into gravel and timbers with a few well placed 16 inch HE shells which would be much more economical than the amount of technical treasures that the cruise missile of the California fleet have suddenly become.
 
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Honestly, rather than refit existing museum ships, California should just build modern versions of these Baltimore-class cruiser - Wikipedia. Long range, plenty of guns, radar, and the ability to hold and launch small numbers of aircraft, drones or missiles depending on design. More importantly, compared to modern ships they are cheap to produce, and don't require multimillion dollar missiles to sink a wooden warship. With a range of about 10k nautical miles (probably a bit more with modern components) it could sail to from San Diego to Japan and back without needing to refuel.

Given that California needs to become a Pacific power, that sort of range coupled with its versatility and relatively low price would make these ideal. Oh, and with the range on their guns, not much will be able to threaten them for the better part of half a century.
 
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Midnighter13 said:
Honestly, rather than refit existing museum ships, California should just build modern versions of these Baltimore-class cruiser - Wikipedia. Long range, plenty of guns, radar, and the ability to hold and launch small numbers of aircraft, drones or missiles depending on design. More importantly, compared to modern ships they are cheap to produce, and don't require multimillion dollar missiles to sink a wooden warship. With a range of about 10k nautical miles (probably a bit more with modern components) it could sail to from San Diego to Japan and back without needing to refuel.
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So they should build these. Boston-class cruiser - Wikipedia. Personally I think they should build ships more like these Allen M. Sumner-class destroyer - Wikipedia and Alaska-class cruiser - Wikipedia. This is due to a gun destroyer being able to act alone or in a small squadron to show the flag and what is basically a battlecruiser being able to provide both long range gun support and engage ground targets while being cheaper in resources and crew size than a full battleship. Also you could use the Iowa as a pattern to size down.
 
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asqwerty3345 said:
This is due to a gun destroyer being able to act alone or in a small squadron to show the flag and what is basically a battlecruiser being able to provide both long range gun support and engage ground targets while being cheaper in resources and crew size than a full battleship. Also you could use the Iowa as a pattern to size down.
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The number of howls on basically any alternate history discussion forum agree on one thing: NO FUCKING ALASKAS!!11!!

Between 5-inch guns on destroyers and 8 inch on heavy cruisers you have all your firepower needs dealt with already, if you use modernized shell designs against 1850s fortifications. The problem is that those calibers aren't used by the US anymore. So you're looking at only 105mm and 155mm artillery being immediately available.
 
Guardian54 said:
The number of howls on basically any alternate history discussion forum agree on one thing: NO FUCKING ALASKAS!!11!!
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Alaska is a great ship and i will defend her honor to the death.
Guardian54 said:
Between 5-inch guns on destroyers and 8 inch on heavy cruisers you have all your firepower needs dealt with already, if you use modernized shell designs against 1850s fortifications. The problem is that those calibers aren't used by the US anymore. So you're looking at only 105mm and 155mm artillery being immediately available.
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But they would have examples of the guns that fired the 5 inch shells and maybe some examples in museums, but if worst came to worst they could replace the 5"/38's with copies of the 5"/54's that are mounted on the
Arleigh Burke destroyers and Ticonderoga class cruisers that are apart of the Pacific fleet. There are lots of shells for those and I think it would be easy to tool up to make them by the boat load. There were examples of 16 inch shells on the Iowa, I don't know if they were deactivated shells or mock-ups, but if they are deactivated shells they could be copied and an upgraded shell could be produced for the nine 16 inch guns California has and if it's decided that the Iowa can't be returned to service she could be used as a pattern for all sorts of things. Her 16 inchers could be removed and turned into coastal defense batteries or they could even be turned into railway guns.
 
kaazmiz said:
Preposterous? I think not!
IRL mines were using glass capsules filled with nitroglycerin for a long time.


Surprised he didn't try to get one of those 'anti mosquito laser guns'.
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Waves will detonate them, that's the problem. Slight jostles made moving nitroglycerine around a very dangerous job it also why I laugh at anyone suggesting using it as a battlefield explosive, one wrong jostle and you've gone up a mile away from enemy lines.
 
mdkcde said:
Were they, really? Or was ir propaganda?
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Japanese lords allowed Jesuits to preach and convert people in exchange for translation services. Those Portuguese Jesuits targeted lords for conversion and kept pushing for favors to the Portuguese traders and denouncing the rest.

When the Dutch traders came, Jesuits repeatedly informed them that the Dutch were liars and undermined them at every turn.

The Japanese soon discovered that the white world was not Catholic, and that the Pope had divided the world in 2 parts, half for the Spanish and half for the Portuguese, and the Jesuits were pushing towards that agenda.

The Shogun expelled all foreigners in response, to deny enemy interests a foothold into the country, both religious and political.

So, it would be propaganda to say that the Jesuits were inciting rebellion, but it's not inaccurate to say that they were working towards the agenda of Catholic and Portuguese supremacy, to the detriment of Japanese power.
 
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One of the things I tried to touch on with the Hawaii segment in this update was that the missionaries there did actively try to stamp down on surfing.
 
asqwerty3345 said:
So they should build these. Boston-class cruiser - Wikipedia. Personally I think they should build ships more like these Allen M. Sumner-class destroyer - Wikipedia and Alaska-class cruiser - Wikipedia. This is due to a gun destroyer being able to act alone or in a small squadron to show the flag and what is basically a battlecruiser being able to provide both long range gun support and engage ground targets while being cheaper in resources and crew size than a full battleship. Also you could use the Iowa as a pattern to size down.
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Well, I'd go with the Gearing-class destroyer - Wikipedia over the Sumner, given the Gearing's longer range and easier ability to modify. Same reason to go for the Baltimore class over the Boston. The former can be modified, the later cannot. As for the Alaska, I'm not terribly familiar with them, but honestly California is not going to need anything heavier than a light cruiser for a long long time. Worst case, if they really need to hit something harder than a Baltimore can, they can use aircraft.

These gun ships are not meant to be battleships (though they will be able to serve as such given the tech disparity) capable of destroying forts on their own, but rather as ships used to discourage raiding and piracy. Fact is, with modern armaments and radar, as soon as a California ship gets within a few miles the 'battle' is already over. The trick is ensuring that California has enough ships with enough cheap weapons options spread across the vastness of the Pacific to protect their future trade routes, merchant ships, and trade partners.

The advantage of the Baltimore is that it can be used in multiple roles. It can act as a ship of the line, shore bombardment ship, and can be easily modified to carry missiles, drones, helicopters, or even troops in a pinch. It is fast enough, and has enough range to get nearly anywhere in the pacific on relatively short notice (not by modern standards, but certainly by contemporary ones) and is large enough compared to the contemporary ships to still intimidate and look impressive during diplomatic meetings.

Recall that these Caledonia-class ship of the line - Wikipedia are among the best contemporary warships of the day. Even a dozen such ships wouldn't be able to get within 5 miles of a Baltimore, or within a mile of a Gearing. Heck, a Gearing is nearly twice the length of a first rate British Ship of the Line, with far more firepower and greater range. A single hit from an exploding shell on a wooden warship well... Even in ambush, the primitive weapons of contemporary ships are unlikely to penetrate any modern armor. So what California needs are not single massive battleships with massive guns, but rather they need lots of cheap hulls with low crew numbers, cheap but effective weapons, and long range. The Baltimore (and Gearing) fits that role to a Tee.
 
I don't know, I feel like the slavers are being handed the idiot ball even more than they already have just to drive a point. They have eyes, I can't think they'd walk into something that they'd know they would die for. It also doesnt seem to serve a literary purpose. Congrats, Californian's hate slavery even more than they already do?

Anyways, California would be absolutely stupid to try to go back to WW2 ships for no tangible reason. The 5 in deck gun on most USN ships is already overkill on all its competitors and does not require reinventing an entire obsolete industry. Anything else is just stroking people's big gun fetishes
 
Midnighter13 said:
Well, I'd go with the Gearing-class destroyer - Wikipedia over the Sumner, given the Gearing's longer range and easier ability to modify. Same reason to go for the Baltimore class over the Boston. The former can be modified, the later cannot. As for the Alaska, I'm not terribly familiar with them, but honestly California is not going to need anything heavier than a light cruiser for a long long time. Worst case, if they really need to hit something harder than a Baltimore can, they can use aircraft.
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Basically FRAM II Gearings with two or three duel turrets, some other modern things and a helicopter hanger. The Alaska class were classed as heavy cruisers that mounted 12 inch guns and while I agree that California need a lot of easy to build and maintain hulls, I don't think they should write off their one fast-battleship they have sitting right in their lap. It may take two or three years to get her ready to fight but I think she could show the flag until these new ships are ready to go. Another thing that could be done is to get the Midway back into service since California could use another Carrier in it fleet.
 
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