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A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850

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yobbin2000 said:
The scientific method is fine but the actual development of other countries is going to be all kinds of messed up. Any kind of of patents or intellectual property rights that downtime countries or individuals had have just been obliterated.
All that time and effort that Europe put into establishing universities and building up a tech base is completely wasted as everyone now has access to the new CaliTech.
James Young isn't going to be seeing any of his patent money for inventing paraffin and starting the oil shale industry.
Charles Dickens isn't going to be getting any royalties from a tale of two cities when any publisher can just dl the text from Project Gutenberg.
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Anyone who is actually halfway competent at cultivation would still recognize great minds, give them patronage, and see what they can come up with AFTER a good jump ahead.

In other words, Charles Dickens and others will be referred to as "the Once and Future Authors" for a while.

The men who were great, or men who would be recognized as great later, would be given a high priority on sending to study in California, since they were proven to be good investments.
 
yobbin2000 said:
James Young isn't going to be seeing any of his patent money for inventing paraffin and starting the oil shale industry.
Charles Dickens isn't going to be getting any royalties from a tale of two cities when any publisher can just dl the text from Project Gutenberg.
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Arguably this will go the other way, californians will have to start paying royalties on stuff that was in the public domain for them, but for which there are active IP claims in 1851.
 
Flectarn said:
Arguably this will go the other way, californians will have to start paying royalties on stuff that was in the public domain for them, but for which there are active IP claims in 1851.
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California has yet to sign any treaties regarding patents though. And if they ever signed any of them, nobody would be able to buy ANYTHING from them.
Since most of the stuff we have today, is based on items that have had patents in the past. And many of their inventors are alive in that timeline (if just born).
The mounting of royalties for patents relating to other patents would easily double the price of any item.
If you plan on building your economy on trade that seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

Though, like everything else that crops up in this story, it's an incredibly good point @Flectarn .
 
Flectarn said:
As the sucessor state to the 2018 US they would have, though how that plays out with down-time governments is murky
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For now I am assuming that they have to resign every treaty, with the local international community, since they are not successor states to countries that those treaties were signed with.
I suspect that Cali lawyers are having aneurysms just thinking about this stuff.
 
Flectarn said:
As the sucessor state to the 2018 US they would have, though how that plays out with down-time governments is murky
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As they are for some insane reason still attempting to join the historical US I do not think they will act as a successor state, but I agree any honoring of treaties across time will be super murkey.

Here's one treaty that'll be fun to figure out the "right" level of enforcement of. The Geneva Convention, the world is 25 years away from the first Geneva convention 50 years away from the First Hague Conference. Like the Red Cross doesn't even exist yet.
How would California react to the Crimean War or the Indian Rebellion where all sides are terrible at human rights.
Note I understand these conflicts will be butterflied away but Europe has a super high chance of some sort of large scale war. And even with 100% foreknowledge and the best of intentions India is totes going into meltdown.
 
Going back to the earlier talk about tropical diseases, yellow fever or Dengue Fever was a common problem across the southeastern united states with periodic epidemics and yellow fever was especially bad in New Orleans where it wasn't unusual of for as much as ten percent of the population to drop dead of yellow fever in a year.

Just the Yellow fever and Dengue Fever vaccines are going to have a big impact in the southeast as you won't have sizable portions of towns dropping dead yearly or towns having becoming ghost towns because everyone either died or fled epidemics of those diseases.
 
On Intercoastal Air Travel, and the Underground Railroad:
"Excuse me ma'am," The tall man in blue with a badge on his chest along with the club and strange pistol at his belt said, interrupting her fascinated observation of men checking the great flying machine for what she suspected as wear, "I'm afraid you have to come with me."

She was so close. Hours at most. She could not read the stiff bit of paper she clutched like a lifeline, but she knew it was her best chance. The last night in that Quaker woman's basement, with the shearing of her hair and the smuggled Californian clothes changed her all out of recognition for all that the trousers and strange harness on her breasts felt right unnatural. She had kept her jaw clamped shut since, let she betray herself by sounding like a down-country field hand, so she could only try to imitate what she glimpsed of Mistress Bledsoe's 'To whom are you speaking' glare.

The man simply sighed before he spoke again. "There is someone looking for a slave woman in her mid twenties who fled the Bledsoe plantation near the Chesapeake coast. He has a bounty letter and is accompanied by a Federal Marshal whose identity we have verified, and we are legally compelled to render assistance."

She caught the jist. She was caught. She heard, as if from a distance, grumbles and yells of anger; however she had seen weapons be turned in at the counter and knew most of the blood shed once it became a fight would be from those who would defend her... and there was nowhere to run. She shook her head and turned to follow.

She remained silent as she stepped into a side door and refused to look at her captor. Maybe she was a fool for wanting to pretend, but she would not beg even someone she thought pitied her. She barely noticed him stepping away, but a flare of light staggered her.

"Okay, if you could stand up and face me again?" a woman's voice said as she tried to blink the spots from her eyes. She managed to focus on a mulatto adjusting some small device she guessed was some sort of daguerreotype maker. With a deep breath she braced herself for another small sun, winced, and obliged with the request to turn and face the wall.

After the third flare, and a muttered "This'll work." she looked around and saw no sign of any slave-catchers. She then spun on her guard and drew breath to bellow in a manner she thought she would never use at a white man.

"We took pictures which we will send back to the Bledsoe estate," he said before she could speak, "If there are multiple people who will swear that you resemble the runaway in question, we will schedule a hearing and ask them to testify as soon as they can make arraignments to come to California. We will try to locate you for a rebuttal as well Ms... Black."

He had glanced down with the last word, and she looked down as well. At the ticket no one had bothered to take from her.

"Your flight should be boarding shortly, ma'am. I apologize for the inconvenience."​
 
htgriffin said:
On Intercoastal Air Travel, and the Underground Railroad
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I get that this is trying as hard as possible to obey the law while being obstructive and helping slaves escape but the average citizen is not going to approve of any collaboration with slavers no matter how much legal red tape they try to wrap this shit up in, here's what the newspaper headlines are going to be.

"TSA cooperating with bounty hunters to identify escaping slaves"

Followed immediately afterwards by the worlds largest demonstration/riot and calls to impeach the government for even pretending to accept pro slavery laws.
 
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yobbin2000 said:
I get that this is trying as hard as possible to obey the law while being obstructive and helping slaves escape but the average citizen is not going to approve of any collaboration with slavers no matter how much legal red tape they try to wrap this shit up in, here's what the newspaper headlines are going to be.

"TSA cooperating with bounty hunters to identify escaping slaves"

Followed immediately afterwards by the worlds largest demonstration/riot and calls to impeach the government for even pretending to accept pro slavery laws.
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I can see TSA acting pre-emptively against this.
Posters, billboards, etc. of comic-artist renditions of TSA agents smiling at slave-catchers while mummifying them in legal red tape are going to be EVERYWHERE. Play it as being the only way to get a solid in on the Underground Railroad system.
 
Also, the only people who would be able to definitively state whether the person in question did resemble the runaway would be slaves that had not escaped. I can't imagine there would be all that many who would rat them out, especially if someone from California talks up the consequences of perjury and they make a really nasty example of the first slave-owner who tries to bribe someone into false testimony.
 
A hearing in California isn't exactly something any slaver should be looking forward to seeing as it is highly unlikely they'd have the necessary evidence to meet the standards of proof for a California court. All the defendant would need to do in such a case is point out the number of times Southern slave catchers grabbed some random free Black person in a non-slave state and called it good to shoot down any protestations from the slaver of, "But I give you my word of honor as a gentleman!"
 
Three weeks without an update...I sincerely hope this TL is not abandoned.
 
Considering the hostilities over the last few pages that resulted in thread bans, it might be wise for this thread to lay low for a bit.

Not die, just lay low/silent. Allow ppl to calm the heck down, and it allows the author TIME, precious, precious, TIME, to do additional research on the time period. That and time to write in more detail.

That isn't a negative to us as readers, but a plus. We get a better story out of it.
 
yobbin2000 said:
I get that this is trying as hard as possible to obey the law while being obstructive and helping slaves escape but the average citizen is not going to approve of any collaboration with slavers no matter how much legal red tape they try to wrap this shit up in, here's what the newspaper headlines are going to be.

"TSA cooperating with bounty hunters to identify escaping slaves"

Followed immediately afterwards by the worlds largest demonstration/riot and calls to impeach the government for even pretending to accept pro slavery laws.
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Keep in mind that moves such as this are reserved for those who dot every 'i', cross every 't', and know how to even have a chance of getting a runaway out of a hostile town. Any fool charging in to drag someone off by main force gets shot/tazed/beaten without a second thought.
 
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Chapter 33
  • Threadmarks
    • Governor's Office — Sacramento — June 22nd, 1851

    "Gavin, this realpolitik we're playing with the downtime United States is liable to blow up in our faces, you know that right?" Said Attorney General Becerra.

    "Tell me something I don't know" Replied Newsom.

    "Look, the fact of the matter is that most people in the state don't want anything to do with the downtime US." Becerra said. "The longer we keep up this legal fiction, the more likely this is to bite us in the ass."

    "Xavier, what do you want me to?" Asked Newsom. "If we declare Independence unilaterally against the downtime US, we weaken the case for them to preserve the Union when the South secedes."

    "If they secede." Said Becerra.

    "If they secede." Said Newsom. "Which they most likely are because we know those people, and we know those kind of people in 2018. They are going to push and push, asking for new concessions and compromises. The ones in the center are going to keep appeasing them and moving the overton window, but it's never going to be good enough."

    "Well, at least we're on familiar turf then." Replied Becerra. "As far as that Washington government is concerned. I don't think we should acknowledge it. From a legal standpoint, the only federal government that exists is the one in the Moscone Center. I think we should make that our official stance."

    "And what do we do about the people we have in Washington?" Said Newsom. "By sending Harris, Jones, Lee and Huffman to DC, they could take that as legitimizing them. Do we just say that they're ambassadors?"

    "Aren't they?" Asked Becerra. "The work they've been doing in DC since The Event has been more like an ambassador than a Senator or a representative. Hell, the downtime Congress still hasn't seated Mrs. Lee."

    "I have a phonecall to make, excuse me." Said Gavin, picking up his phone.

    "Jane, can you get me Eric Holder?" Gavin asked into the phone.

    After a short wait, the other end of the call was picked up, and Gavin sat up in his seat.

    "Eric! How's the constitutional convention going?" He asked. "Uh huh. Uh huh. Great! That reads as fair without seeming too much like we want to prevent another lockout like in that Orange County district. Listen, I just wanted to give you an update on my end. We're going with the successor clause."
    Hanging up the phone, Gavin turned back to Becerra.

    "So, now that we've got that straightened out. How's the Fugitive Slave Act suit going?" He asked.

    "Talking over it with Holder and Obama, we think there's a decent 5th amendment and 10th amendment challenge in there. The Taney court already ruled in our favor in Prigg…"

    ———

    Dear Mary,

    It's been a fascinating experience living in California these past few months, and it's been a welcome change of pace from Springfield. I've been staying in a boarding house in Sunnyvale that used to be something called an "Air B&B."

    I must confess that when I first stepped off the boat, I had been in shock at how the Californians had dressed, and how out of place I felt dressed as I was, as all the Californians I have met dress in a manner similar to that of the Indians, and even many of those who came with me had gone Californian. I myself have found myself preferring the Californian styles of dress lately, so it seems that even I have begun to go Californian.

    I can't begin to describe what California is like to you. Even something as simple as working as a dressmaker is so vastly different than in Springfield. Our days are only nine hours long here, and one hour of that is a lunch break.

    I'm sending you some things to post at the old mill. One is a sign with a blank space that says how many days it's been since the last accident, I can only hope that it brings the bosses attention to how dangerous it is. I'm sending you something else, it's a poster that all workplaces in California are required to have that tells the workers their rights. A minimum wage of twelve dollars per hour, paid off for illness and maternity leave, compensation for injuries on the job, two hours of time off for voting, equal pay compared to men, this is what we could have everywhere.

    Yours Truly,

    Catherine O'Hara.

    ———

    Dear Dietrich,

    My fellow revolutionary, I hope this letter finds you well in Fürth. I have settled in rather nicely in Los Angeles, the warm climate has done wonders for my health. The time away from Bavaria has let me reflect on the events of just two years ago, when we seemed to be on the cusp of bringing the Germanic peoples together as a single nation.

    I have been researching and studying the future history, and I've had some shocking discoveries.

    I don't know if I can stay committed to the cause anymore.

    Germany will be united in only twenty years, but it comes at a terrible cost to the rest of the world. It's difficult to put into words like this but the book I'm sending you should cover what is going to happen.

    Yours in revolution,

    Heinrich.

    ———


    ​
    Mystery Land Purchases by California Company Causes Land Rush in Western Pennsylvania - Pittsburgh Herald, June 15th, 1851
    A large land purchase by the California based company Chevron has some residents of Western Pennsylvania puzzled, leaving some to wonder if there is a hidden treasure buried in Western Pennsylvania somewhere.

    For now the only marker of the land purchase was the metal fence place up surrounding the land. However, prospectors have started staking claims in western Pennsylvania in the hopes of finding gold in the Appalachian hills.

    [...]

    FDIC and Federal Reserve Bank Announce Bank Restructuring Plan - Los Angeles Times, June 21st, 1850.

    SAN FRANCISCO—After taking all of the financial institution within California into FDIC receivership following The Event, the FDIC and Federal Reserve Bank have announced their restructuring plan for California's uptime financial institutions as part of the Downtime Transition Plan.

    Under the new plan, the FDIC, Federal Reserve Bank, and the remaining uptime assets of Wells Fargo, JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup, Bank of America, and US Bancorp will be reorganized as the publicly-owned National Credit Union of California, to be headed up by one-time Gubernatorial candidate and former State Treasurer John Chiang.

    Under the bill organizing it that passed in the state legislature, the NCUC has the sole power to issue currency within the state and is in charge of monetary policy, as a concession to the California National Party, the national credit union is available to the public for retail banking, and is backed by the full faith and credit of California.    ​

    ———

    Henley's Bar and Grill — Oceanside, California – June 13th, 1851

    Henley's wasn't exactly the kind of place in Oceanside that catered to tourists. In fact, most of the customers were locals, with a good number of them being Marines from Camp Pendleton. But the friday night crowds were here, and they were getting drunk.    ​


    "So there we were, probably 30 miles outside of Kandahar." Said SSgt Andrea Travers. "Myself, Jimmy, and Blake in the Hummvee and Barber on the gun. We're stuck on the asshole end of this convoy when we start going through the canyon. And I've got my eyes on the canyon walls, and Barber is on the gun looking at the canyon for Hajjis. We go around the bend you know and then BAM! Lead vehicle hits a landmine."

    "No shit?" Said SPC John Myung, grabbing his mug of beer and taking a swing.

    "I shit you not, this thing was probably 30 years old and a leftover from the Russians, Hajjis had taken it and fixed it up with new explosives." Said Travers. "Fuckin' graveyard of empires man."

    At the table nearby was a group of former British soldiers who had come to California to find gold.

    "Oh Christ, I hope they aren't here to drag us back into the Queen's Army." Muttered Corporal Robert Montgomery, taking a swing of the Californian beer.

    "Don't be so pessimistic." Said Lance Corporal Peter Wright.

    Turning to the other group, he spoke up. "You were in Afghanistan?" Montgomery asked.

    "Damn straight." Said Travers. "Two tours in Afghanistan, one tour in Iraq."

    "I can't imagine somebody going into that hellhole, coming out, and going back for more." He said. "I was in Kandahar when we retook Ghazni and I can't imagine ever going through that again."

    "No shit, You got deployed to Kandahar too?" Said Myung.

    "Yep." Said Montgomery. "Went to the pub, got drunk, and woke up the next day to find out that I was now part of the 'glorious' British Army. They sent me to the arse end of India just so that they could keep Russia from invading Afghanistan."

    "The more things change huh?" Said Travers to her fellow Marines.

    "Truth be told it was a whole lot of nothing for most of the war, we just sat in the garrison and did mostly nothing except stand watch and play cards all day. Hell, I remember hearing about the evacuation of Kabul and thinking that the war was happening everywhere in Afghanistan except where we were."

    "Ain't that the truth?" Said SPC Miguel Ferraro. "Wars never change."
     
  • Threadmarks
    • I really don't get what the situation is politically right now honestly. On one hand the uptimers are pretending they are in the downtime US (and demanding rights as such like seating senators) while on the other hand they have voted for independence and are effectively already operating as though they have it. The Constitution does not allow for states to issue their own money any longer (and hasn't since the end of the Articles of Confederation) yet the Californians are blatantly ignoring that (though admittedly it is necessary to do so). So is California independent? Are they in rebellion? I want to know what the downtimers think is going on politically with California at this point, because I imagine they are even more baffled than I am. How often do you have people show up to your government as representatives of effective rebels, and ask for a seat in the government they are in the process of rebelling against? Its absurd. Granted, its realistic as various people and factions in CA probably have different ideas on what should be happening. I'm also surprised that we've not heard about issues with parts of the uptime military contacting the downtime President trying to get legal clarification of their status (and won't that be a mess). Or has the military decided to only recognize the Moscone Center government as the only legitimate successor to the American government of 2018? If so, then California will keep most of them post official independence (though I imagine many of the actual soldiers, especially from the Southern states might be unhappy about it).
     
    Midnighter13 said:
    I really don't get what the situation is politically right now honestly. On one hand the uptimers are pretending they are in the downtime US (and demanding rights as such like seating senators) while on the other hand they have voted for independence and are effectively already operating as though they have it. The Constitution does not allow for states to issue their own money any longer (and hasn't since the end of the Articles of Confederation) yet the Californians are blatantly ignoring that (though admittedly it is necessary to do so). So is California independent? Are they in rebellion? I want to know what the downtimers think is going on politically with California at this point, because I imagine they are even more baffled than I am. How often do you have people show up to your government as representatives of effective rebels, and ask for a seat in the government they are in the process of rebelling against? Its absurd. Granted, its realistic as various people and factions in CA probably have different ideas on what should be happening. I'm also surprised that we've not heard about issues with parts of the uptime military contacting the downtime President trying to get legal clarification of their status (and won't that be a mess). Or has the military decided to only recognize the Moscone Center government as the only legitimate successor to the American government of 2018? If so, then California will keep most of them post official independence (though I imagine many of the actual soldiers, especially from the Southern states might be unhappy about it).
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    My understanding is that they're making a token go at being a state of the USA, while raising enough of a stink by not cooperating with the federal government that they're hoping the government will kick them out instead of them having to secede.
     
    Instant Sunrise said:
    Mystery Land Purchases by California Company Causes Land Rush in Western Pennsylvania - Pittsburgh Herald, June 15th, 1851
    A large land purchase by the California based company Chevron has some residents of Western Pennsylvania puzzled, leaving some to wonder if there is a hidden treasure buried in Western Pennsylvania somewhere.

    For now the only marker of the land purchase was the metal fence place up surrounding the land. However, prospectors have started staking claims in western Pennsylvania in the hopes of finding gold in the Appalachian hills.
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    Gonna be a bunch of confused gold miners hitting oil. :wink:
     
    Midnighter13 said:
    I really don't get what the situation is politically right now honestly.
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    Mother of all political shitstorms. Clusterfuck on par with the breakup of the USSR. Bad choices all around, all sorts of bad news. The downtime US doesn't want to give California the representation that they are supposed to be afforded (partially because it would become the United States of California.), Cali doesn't want to secede because it gives the fuck-mothering slavers cover, the downtime US doesn't want to let Cali go because ALL THAT TECH AND POWAH, cats and dogs living together, MASS HYSTERIA!

    General insanity all around.
     
    Dowtimers: So you think we should let in new slave states?

    Uptimers: I think we should get rid of ALL slave states.

    Downtimers: ... This is going to be a problem...

    Uptimers: It really isn't.

    Downtimer: Have you met the South?

    Uptimer: Yes. Scr*** 'em

    Downtimer: ...Oh god
     
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    TortugaGreen said:
    My understanding is that they're making a token go at being a state of the USA, while raising enough of a stink by not cooperating with the federal government that they're hoping the government will kick them out instead of them having to secede.
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    Doesn't that set even a worse precedent than secession; that The Government can just kick out states that annoy it?
     
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