Just pointing this out but E88 have been outed... so it wouldn't be breaking the unwritten rules. We would just be participating in major privacy violation for looking everywhere for them.

Now I am voting for something else but it rubs me the wrong way to see out right wrong arguments like this would bring down every villian on our head because of unwritten rules.
 
Just pointing this out but E88 have been outed... so it wouldn't be breaking the unwritten rules. We would just be participating in major privacy violation for looking everywhere for them.

Now I am voting for something else but it rubs me the wrong way to see out right wrong arguments like this would bring down every villian on our head because of unwritten rules.
Well, it meets the LETTER of the rules(despite them being unwritten) but violates the spirit. Sort of like how we dealt with the Merchants.

Perception matters.
 
Well, it meets the LETTER of the rules(despite them being unwritten) but violates the spirit. Sort of like how we dealt with the Merchants.

Perception matters.

Except the information is already out there. And frankly no one cares if the unwritten rules spirit gets broken so long as the letter doesn't.

Canon proved that more then enough times.
 
Except the information is already out there. And frankly no one cares if the unwritten rules spirit gets broken so long as the letter doesn't.

Canon proved that more then enough times.
We're selling ourselves as the most ideal of all heroes, so far. Completely beyond reproach in our dealings and honorability. Doing the legalistic dancing might work for the already muddy PRT, but would do severe damage to the image we're trying to build.

Nobody will go out there and declare vengeance for breaking the rules, but at the same time, nobody would trust us quite as much as they used to when we did things the hard, but right way, and still succeeded.
 
We're selling ourselves as the most ideal of all heroes, so far. Completely beyond reproach in our dealings and honorability. Doing the legalistic dancing might work for the already muddy PRT, but would do severe damage to the image we're trying to build.

Nobody will go out there and declare vengeance for breaking the rules, but at the same time, nobody would trust us quite as much as they used to when we did things the hard, but right way, and still succeeded.

Alternatively they don't trust us because we have outted villians in our city of interest and we refuse to bring them in. Makes you wonder why the guy dedicated to heroing wouldn't kick in some doors and drag them off to prison. Perhaps he got paid off?
 
Alternatively they don't trust us because we have outted villians in our city of interest and we refuse to bring them in. Makes you wonder why the guy dedicated to heroing wouldn't kick in some doors and drag them off to prison. Perhaps he got paid off?
No, because that goes against the speech we made at the death of Leviathan. We appealed to villains to change sides, that there is forgiveness and redemption, that even if the world is screwed, they should fight the darkness. They joined the fight with the Endbringers.

Hunting down revealed villains does not actually help that image we've been building by flipping Skitter, Tsunami and the Travelers. Consistency in image builds a strong image.

So they are Nazis, that does not make them elemental evil. We've just stopped worse, and will stop worse. The problem is the degree of influence they have, which says a lot more about the city and the world giving them that support for bigotry, than their significance.
 
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We have given them more then enough time to switch sides by this points. Its been a week right? They are still wanted criminal's. They refuse to change and instead hide in the shadows biding their time before they strike. Heros don't leave villians to harm people just in the hope they may do the right thing if we just give them more time. They have had their time... its now time to collect the trash of society.
 
That's exactly the kind of logic that simply cements villains as villains, and hampers conversion efforts. The world is fucked enough that simply going around destroying all the villains would leave it even worse off than when you started.
 
That's exactly the kind of logic that simply cements villains as villains, and hampers conversion efforts. The world is fucked enough that simply going around destroying all the villains would leave it even worse off than when you started.
Wrong we gave them a chance. That is never the logic that cements villians as villians. That proves that actual villians are going to remain actual villians. Potential heros on the other hand like skitter would have at least tried to go hero. tried to follow through on our speech. They didn't. Ergo they are actually villians.

This world already has far to many villains. So much so that it cannot afford to just ignore villians .... well for just because. Frankly I don't know what your arguing they would do that is heroic..?
 
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That the world has TOO many villains that no destructive efforts would be effective enough, it'd just destroy the world even faster. The only way out of this is to convert them.

And it's been working out, all across the country, with the groups we've worked with, etc. Villains are gradually disengaging from criminal life, which we can expedite by:
-Making criminal life unprofitable. If there's no money, they won't take the risks.
-Making changing sides easier. That means less revenge and punitive justice, more corrective work.
-Eliminating the circumstances which elevate villains in the first place. Poor economy and such drive more crime than psychos.

Going out there and beating them up is satisfying but makes no progress on the real problem.
 
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[X] Instead of going after the capes, go after their remaining money sources. Patrol the city all the time. Seek and destroy drug stashes. Find and confiscate weapon caches. Dismantle E88's organized crime network.


Another thing to remember is that this is Brocton Bay, a city with a superpowered asian dragon-man leading the ABB and guys like Skidmark and Squealer running the Merchants. There's stuff like drugs getting sold to kids, women and young girls getting kidnapped and sold into slavery, and other unspeakable things.

The Empire promises protection to white people while protecting them from the "foreign devils" and the scum of society. Give lip service to the Nazi cause and your family could be protected from the ABB and Merchants. Plus, they have Discount Nazi Panacea on their team.

If your child or spouse got their legs blown off by one of Bakuda's bombs and you had a choice between waiting months or years on Panacea's waiting list, letting them be crippled for life... or swearing loyalty to a local villain who hates Bakuda just as much as you and can get your family member healed to full heath within a week... would you not be tempted?

Alot of Nazis in the city may have joined up just to get extra protection from the other gangs or maybe to get connections and the possibility of healing. By taking out the other gangs, we may have removed one of the insentives for people to join.
 
Working on stunt text: Reprehensible as their beliefs are, Nazis are people too. They don't exist in a vacuum, they have motivations and reasons behind their actions. In the case of Brockton Bay's E88, they were in the same city as the ABB with their rage dragon and the Mechants with their walking stereotype. So it's entirely possible that some joined up out of fear or desire for protection and simple inertia is keeping them in the gang. Just turning up to have a philosophical chat with them while they're unmasked isn't a violation of the Unwritten Rules, so maybe you can give a way out to those that haven't fully bought into the party line.

@sun tzu - is this in character? Am I making any incorrect assumptions about the Rules?
 
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[QUOTE="FunkyEntropy, post: 4339919, member: 403]
Just turning up to have a philosophical chat with them while they're isn't a violation of the Unwritten Rules,

I think you forgot something after "they're."

Huh, for some reason I can't get the quote to work, but it doesn't look like I'm missing anything.[/QUOTE]
Coulda sworn I had typed "unmasked." Fixed.
 
That the world has TOO many villains that no destructive efforts would be effective enough, it'd just destroy the world even faster. The only way out of this is to convert them.

And it's been working out, all across the country, with the groups we've worked with, etc. Villains are gradually disengaging from criminal life, which we can expedite by:
-Making criminal life unprofitable. If there's no money, they won't take the risks.
-Making changing sides easier. That means less revenge and punitive justice, more corrective work.
-Eliminating the circumstances which elevate villains in the first place. Poor economy and such drive more crime than psychos.

Going out there and beating them up is satisfying but makes no progress on the real problem.

Clearly you are forgetting that there is no such thing. Too destructive is not possible, only not accurately destructive.

Tell that to Jack Slash and fanatics like say the E88.
Did this.
Doing this.

Removing the criminal element entirely from Brockton bay would in fact remove most of the reasons why more people would join criminal elements. For protection against other criminal elements. This would finally produce a place of peace. A place where heros aren't too afraid to do the right thing.
 
Wait, are you suggesting that authority figures might be more amiable towards giving us what we want in exchange for us giving them what they want? That being an egotistical dick might be suboptimal compared to cooperation?

Mother of God.

This...this changes everything!
Yay! That's good to know. I'm now even more happier to have chosen that one.

Heh.
Well, look at it from Piggot's perspective:
1)This new Avatar guy is competing with Dragon, Eidolon, Legend and Alexandria for the "#1 Protectorate Asset" title. He's tougher than Alexandria, more charismatic than Legend, produces megatons of miracle metal, and oh that's right killed an Endbringer. The main reason he isn't already holding it firmly in his hands is that he's new, and we don't know how reliable and trustworthy he really is.
2)We want to make sure this guy is, and stays, on board with the Protectorate. At the same time, we want to make sure he doesn't start fucking us up internally by throwing his weight around to have everything his way.
3)He wants to heal Genesis. We don't want to help villains, and it's really freaking unfair that of all the cripples in the world, the one that gets miracle healing is the criminal who got caught... but on the other hand, that might make the Travelers more likely to play ball, and more importantly, it might improve our working relationship with the Avatar. On the gripping hand, the last thing we want is for the insanely powerful guy to start developing a case of cape-entitlement.
4)OK, he played ball, followed orders, generally has the least shitty attitude of every cape around here save maybe Miss Militia... OK, letting him heal Genesis is probably safe enough.

It's a back-and-forth between the Avatar and the PRT, in a sense. It's how you build a working professional relationship.


The E88 has other branches in other cities and countries. Night and Fog came over from Boston after Accord decided to...tidy up the city, IIRC.
Again, I have to ask for a citation. I mean, it doesn't sound unreasonable, but I'd like to know if it's canon or fanon.


We're selling ourselves as the most ideal of all heroes, so far. Completely beyond reproach in our dealings and honorability. Doing the legalistic dancing might work for the already muddy PRT, but would do severe damage to the image we're trying to build.

Nobody will go out there and declare vengeance for breaking the rules, but at the same time, nobody would trust us quite as much as they used to when we did things the hard, but right way, and still succeeded.

True in a way. On the other hand, the Avatar comes from a world where supervillains don't get special considerations unavailable to unpowered criminals. So the question is, do you want to go along with the somewhat shitty status quo that the unwritten rules as they currently are maintain, or take the risk of turning it on its head and saying "no, supervillains don't get to hide behind their masks anymore"?


Working on stunt text: Reprehensible as their beliefs are, Nazis are people too. They don't exist in a vacuum, they have motivations and reasons behind their actions. In the case of Brockton Bay's E88, they were in the same city as the ABB with their rage dragon and the Mechants with their walking stereotype. So it's entirely possible that some joined up out of fear or desire for protection and simple inertia is keeping them in the gang. Just turning up to have a philosophical chat with them while they're unmasked isn't a violation of the Unwritten Rules, so maybe you can give a way out to those that haven't fully bought into the party line.

@sun tzu - is this in character? Am I making any incorrect assumptions about the Rules?

Sounds reasonable.

Do note: The Avatar did destroy Earth Gimel's Ku Klux Klan. He has some experience with dismantling vast, bigotry-based criminal organizations. He has a few ideas on how to handle it. ;)

[QUOTE="FunkyEntropy, post: 4339919, member: 403]

Huh, for some reason I can't get the quote to work, but it doesn't look like I'm missing anything.
What you're missing is a closing quotation mark.
 
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oh, man, we could totally troll the fuck outta the Nazi's by just showing up to talk to them about why racism is wrong. As long as we don't fight them/capture them it's not like we're breaking the rule of attacking them while they're unmasked. That would be fucking hilarious and there wouldn't be a damn thing they could do about it. And who knows, we might even convince some to surrender or switch sides (Purity is the main one here) - it's entirely possible that some don't actually believe in the whole Nazi thing and only joined for protection against the other gangs and are now stuck with their decision because of inertia (and getting outed as being a member of E88).
It's not against the rules, but it is pretty threatening.

Also, they probably have everyone they know as civilians queuing up to give their two pennies worth.


Wrong we gave them a chance. That is never the logic that cements villians as villians. That proves that actual villians are going to remain actual villians. Potential heros on the other hand like skitter would have at least tried to go hero. tried to follow through on our speech. They didn't. Ergo they are actually villians.

I really doubt Skitter would have tried if she hadn't had personal encouragement. Take that as you will.
 
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It's not against the rules, but it is pretty threatening.
Depends on the approach. If we just hover over their home or place of work, silently, with a look of stern disapproval on our face I imagine it wouldn't go over well. I'm thinking more of him putting on a pot of tea and being insufferably polite and nice about it. As long as we don't violate the Rules by attacking we have some leeway, although I'm sure the Nazi's aren't going to appreciate us showing up unannounced.

Also, they probably have everyone they know as civilians queuing up to give their two pennies worth.
Given the whole super powered Nazi thing? I doubt those that disagree are going to say anything.

Thank you. Also, I apparently messed up my quote to such a massive extent that it messed up everyone else trying to quote me. :p
It's all your fault :mob:
 
[X] Instead of going after the capes, go after their remaining money sources. Patrol the city all the time. Seek and destroy drug stashes. Find and confiscate weapon caches. Dismantle E88's organized crime network.

I didn't like this idea at first, just due to the time commitment involved, but dismantling them from the ground up does sound appealing. The arguments for it have swayed me.
You know, I've seen this stated before more than once, and I'm curious - is there a quote (from the story, or one of Wildbow's statements) supporting it?
Yup
7.4 said:
Kaiser and every single one of his twenty-ish superpowered flunkies are going to be pissed enough to want to kill someone, after Coil went and turned their lives upside down.
The E88 has other branches in other cities and countries. Night and Fog came over from Boston after Accord decided to...tidy up the city, IIRC.
Again, I have to ask for a citation. I mean, it doesn't sound unreasonable, but I'd like to know if it's canon or fanon.
Regarding Night and Fog, they're among Kayden's assets.
4.x said:
"I've talked to the others, but nobody that's worked for you is willing to be the first to join me. Some say they're worried they'll offend you. Others are just spooked, or they've already given up. They ask me why would a group of your rejects do any better than they'd managed as part of your team? I'm not getting anywhere, and time's running out. All it would take would be one word from you, and I'd have a team of four or five people. With that, I could root out and squash the ABB."
That group of 4 or 5:
7.07 said:
And she leads her own sub-group within Empire Eighty Eight, so I'm betting that Fog, Night, Alabaster and Crusader are on the streets, doing their own thing.
Which means none of them should be in the Empire before Kayden rejoins, btw. Unless it's way back. They're among the ones Kaiser burned out, though how he burned out Night and Fog, I've no idea.

Speaking of them:
5.01 said:
Purity had gone solo, while Night and Fog had splintered off to form their own duo in Boston not long after.
So they were just a racist pair in Boston, not a part of the E88 out there. They returned at Kayden's call to rejoin the Empire, under her command.

Speaking of that, of the E88 being a multi-city gang, I thought that I recalled that Kaiser was trying to expand into the surrounding cities, but couldn't find it in my brief search. All I could find was:
5.01 said:
That wasn't even Kaiser's entire team. Aside from the rare exception like Lung reaching out to Bakuda when she'd been at Cornell, it seemed that most groups recruited new members from within their own city. Kaiser was different. He was one of the better known American villains with a white supremacist agenda, and people sharing his ideals were either recruited from other states or they came to him. Most didn't stay with him for too long, for whatever reason, but it still made him the Brockton Bay resident with the most raw parahuman muscle at his beck and call.
Closest thing I have.

Sorry this is kind of scattered, but those are all of the relevant quotes that I could find, at least at the moment.
 
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[X] Instead of going after the capes, go after their remaining money sources. Patrol the city all the time. Seek and destroy drug stashes. Find and confiscate weapon caches. Dismantle E88's organized crime network.
 
Heh.
Well, look at it from Piggot's perspective:
1)This new Avatar guy is competing with Dragon, Eidolon, Legend and Alexandria for the "#1 Protectorate Asset" title. He's tougher than Alexandria, more charismatic than Legend, produces megatons of miracle metal, and oh that's right killed an Endbringer. The main reason he isn't already holding it firmly in his hands is that he's new, and we don't know how reliable and trustworthy he really is.
2)We want to make sure this guy is, and stays, on board with the Protectorate. At the same time, we want to make sure he doesn't start fucking us up internally by throwing his weight around to have everything his way.
3)He wants to heal Genesis. We don't want to help villains, and it's really freaking unfair that of all the cripples in the world, the one that gets miracle healing is the criminal who got caught... but on the other hand, that might make the Travelers more likely to play ball, and more importantly, it might improve our working relationship with the Avatar. On the gripping hand, the last thing we want is for the insanely powerful guy to start developing a case of cape-entitlement.
4)OK, he played ball, followed orders, generally has the least shitty attitude of every cape around here save maybe Miss Militia... OK, letting him heal Genesis is probably safe enough.

It's a back-and-forth between the Avatar and the PRT, in a sense. It's how you build a working professional relationship.

And that right there is a pretty strong argument to not hunt down the E88 in their homes.

Unless the PRT is willing to back such an operation and endorse it, this would not be playing ball. This would be ripping the status quo down in BB and leaving them to pick up the pieces when we leave.

Unless this decision point implies that Piggot will sign off on a public manhunt on the E88? Because that right there is an important piece of context.
 
And that right there is a pretty strong argument to not hunt down the E88 in their homes.

Unless the PRT is willing to back such an operation and endorse it, this would not be playing ball. This would be ripping the status quo down in BB and leaving them to pick up the pieces when we leave.

Unless this decision point implies that Piggot will sign off on a public manhunt on the E88? Because that right there is an important piece of context.
The vote isn't about what you're doing, it's about the course of action you're recommending to the PRT.
 
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