A Light from the Shadow (Tolkien CKII)

The White Council: part 4
The White Council: part 4
The council is held in an ancient room near the place named Marzabul, near the place where in a future now impossible would have stood the tomb of Balin son of Fundin amidst the scattered bones of his last defenders. It's there you see how Moria, at least the part claimed by the Dwarves has changed in these few years. There is no darkness here for the eternal night is full of lamps of gold and torches of silver. What artifice they are using to avoid smoke, you don't know but to see the flames bright in their caskets of precious stones is heartening. The dust of ages has been swept and chisel and hammer have been hard at work. Statues of ancient lords look down from ancient pillars while arabesques of precious metal and frescoes of a thousand colors celebrate the deeds of the Dwarves of old. Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains whose lords were a bane to Morgoth's creatures and whose dying lord made Glaurung flee during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. The splendor of Erebor ruined by Smaug the Golden, the battle at the East-Gate are also spread on the walls of the rooms, an history etched in stone in remembrance of wrongs yet to right and sated vengeance.

Never in the ages of the world was such a gathering made. For here stands all children of creation at the exception of the Tree-Herders. For the first children of the thought of Eru stand Curunir, Olorin and Aiwendil. For the Elves, Elrond and Galadriel and their retinues in all their magnificence. For the Dwarves are Thrain Lord of Khazad-Dum, his son young Thorin Oakenshield and Naïn. For mortal men came Braca of Dunland and Hassan of Harad and many others of fairer lineage. And for those who once walked in darkness but now come to light, you stand and Kzorg, and Prekk and Ilzog who are indeed the first Orcs ever to be admitted in the councils of the great. The occasion is auspicious indeed and you see interest flare in the eyes of your cohorts. The physical changes wrought upon your charges' conversion are slight but unmistakable to those in the gathering who hunted Orcs and their kindred. They are still ugly but the veil was lifted from their faces and their ugliness has turned to scars of years of pain and wrinkles from years of worry, rather than cruel sneers and the hate of Morgoth reflected in the eyes of his victims.

"Friends, fair lords and noble ladies and you all who fight against the Shadow wherever it lies." The voice of Saruman rises like the most melodious music you can dream of. "Let us welcome among us those who we had long thought beyond hope." He points to Braca and bows his head. "Braca of Dunland whose blood is of the Edaïn of Beleriand who is now beneath the waves." He points to Hassan and address a glance you don't manage to interpret to Gandalf who has brought him here. "Hassan of Harad whose people have languished long under the yoke of Sauron, whose people saw the islanders turn from compassion to greed and then to zeal in the service of Morgoth Bauglir." He looks at the Orcs and not only bows his head but when he raises it, you see the shadow of tears on his cheeks. "And of course, the Orcs, half of our hosts. My heart is heavy to see you for I see the marring Morgoth has inflicted upon you and yet he was long cast from the world when you were born. Be welcome to this gathering and others, Children of Eru, and don't despair. Evil yet be good will have been in the end."

"And yet evil remains," interjects Gandalf. "The crime of the birth of your race is not yours to bear and you have nothing to be forgiven for. Yet for all the wonder of your presence here, this council will speak of all matters of the world known to us and how to solve them"

Your ears ring still with the words of Saruman when the council begins in earnest. Children of Eru he has named your charges. The technically correct term for the Orcs had always be "Children of Melkor". Strange to see how a simple name can tell much about the willingness of the Chief of the Wise to welcome those you shepherd in the larger community.


Miriel's Tale

In the ruins of Arnor, ghastly things move about, remnants of an ancient fear. There is fire atop the Iron Mountains and something has driven the Orcs of Carn Dûm into a frenzy. Miriel of the Dunedain admit, to her shame, that not all of her people are content to wait for the moment to retake their ancient kingdom, not remembering the attempts who were made and ended in tragedy for the Shadow loathes the offspring of Isildur with a passion rarely seen. Some of these renegades consider their existence unworthy to what their bloodline deserves and in their heart at least they name themselves Black Numenoreans like those princes of the South who carry the taint of the last days of Numenor. Some of these renegades seem to have gathered in the northern wastes and somehow learned foul arts. The Orcs fear their masters more than they fear death and they gather ready to attack but that's not the worst.

Called by sorcery, ancient terrors have awakened anew. Near the town of Bree ancient corpses shuffle around in their barrows. The wights were already a known phenomenon as they were born of the Witch-King of Angmar's malice, calling fell spirits to inhabit the bones of the dead. Some unlucky captains and princes of Cardolan who tried to defend the graves of their ancestors were also of their number, their hearts pierced by Morgul-Blades. Now the Barrows Wights are no longer content to wait in their graves, protecting their hoards from trespassers. They range farther and farther and with them monsters with black wings sully the night and things even Miriel hesitate to name range the old forests.

Hassan's Tale
Hassan speak of Umbar the great port of the men of Numenor and of the nobles who live there. You are surprised to learn than the Haradrim in truth rule very little in Harad. They are slaves, some willingly but most held by fear of bloody retribution, of the aristocracy of the great harbor. Said aristocracy is composed of the descendants of the King's Men who had lived there since the Fall of Numenor and the noble Gondorian families who fled during the Kinstrife because they followed Castamir the Usurper. Needless to say they form a tightly-kit group. So insular indeed that Hassan claim they practice incest as a matter of course to keep the bloodlines pure. You are not sure about that, such canard is awfully widespread among humans. Yet even if it is an overstatement, it gets to the point. From what Lothiriel and he are saying the Umbari lords are the descendants of those who rebelled against the king of Gondor because said king's mother was not of Edaïn's lineage.

Chained to their masters' yoke, the Haradrim put their hopes in the prophesied return of one of their ancient queens. It was said she had united the tribes against the great city and founded, the now destroyed capital of Karnà in the southern sands. Unfortunately for them the legends were true and false. The shadowy being who came to Harad was indeed the lady Adunaphael, who unlike in most sightings of the Nazgûl announced loudly her title and claims. Unfortunately as the moniker of "Lady of the West" indicated she had been a Numenoreans in life (or in flesh, you don't know if the Ringwraiths are undead) and rather than unite the Haradrim under her rule, she promptly walked to Umbar and went directly to the great council chambers.

There, held by the terror of her gaze and her presence, the high lords of Umbar knelt before her and yielded the lordship of the harbor. According to what Hassan heard, some tried without success to kill her, only to discover the Nazgûls have ways to punish the impudent who dare to strike them. Adunaphael rules Umbar now but with a light hand, commanding only two things. The first is that the corsair fleet obeys to Sauron's interests whatever they may be. For the moment it seems nothing worse than light raiding on the coasts of Gondor and the transport of at least a Ringwraith to the southern continent of Morenor;

The second makes you all want to vomit. There is a new temple in Umbar now, or more exactly an ancient temple restored. Smoke rises through the roof spreading the stench across the city. They burn men and women alive there, and they burn them in sacrifice to Morgoth Bauglir power of corruption and hatred and of Sauron his messenger and avatar in Arda. The conceit of it boggles the mind. Sauron is of the Maïar but to be worshipped as he is apparently as Morgoth's equal? To receive sacrifices and offerings as only Eru should. Alas it is no jest for Hassan grimly recounts collectors from Umbar not only come to the Haradrim for taxes and youths to enlist in their armies but also for victims for their altars. Apparently some of the new priests have emerged from their dark rituals as mighty sorcerers.

You thank heartily all comers but now is the time to debate actions among the Wise themselves. What will your first subject of conversations

[] The Rings
[] Umbar
[] Arnor
[] Your projects for the Orcs
[] Write-in

Try at least to propose something Elrond, Gandalf and co could do to settle the problem.

Adhoc vote count started by ganonso on Nov 20, 2017 at 6:14 AM, finished with 1520 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness
    [X] Arnor
    -[X] Offer to go to the Barrow Downs and take care of the Wights there, personally and permanently. Confer with Miriel as to how widespread the wights are and choose backup from among the Elves, Men and Dwarves as available. Preferably some Lothlorien Elves, plus some Dunedain to act as guides and trackers, given that it's their region and they know it best. With proper manpower, you should still be able to spend a fair bit of time in Moria seeing to your people.
    -[X] Meanwhile, Imladris should work with Miriel to scout the northern lands and see how much of the area can be immediately secured and if a front can or should be preemptively established North of the Angle. Whatever happens in the Barrow Downs will either reveal Nazgul presence or, if absent, indicate that it's actually in the North where the Witch King (or whoever else) are working from at present. One of the Istari or Glorfindel may need to be involved in this.
    -[X] Meanwhile, steps could be taken to make Arnor properly habitable again, starting with Enedwaith. Whatever stasis is on the land, whether because of the Rule of Ringbearers in ancient times or the Witch King's last act of spite, or both, should be lifted and the land made ready to resettle. As it is now, it's all just going to waste. Any two Istari and perhaps Glorfindel should take lead on this. They can take a time to weigh odds and what effort would be required to achieve this, as well as provide a time frame for what will clearly be a long-term, concerted effort. It should be possible to do in stages (Enedwaith and Minhiriath should get priority).
    -[X] By next year, you should have finished dealing with the Barrow Wights and the situation North will be sufficiently scouted. At that point, the decision can be taken to either wage war in the North, or start a concerted effort between Dunedain and Rivendell, or the Grey Havens by the West, to see the ethereal threats dealt with and gloom banished.
    -[X] Long-term, once Enedwaith, at the very least, is cleansed and made ready, the area would make a good place to establish anyone if they agree to abide by the law and custom of Arnor. Perhaps thoughts should be given to the idea of letting the Dunlendings settle there, under Dunedain supervision and guidance. Pacts can be drafted to ensure the claim of the Dunedain on Arnor is maintained, while also removing the Dunlendings from being a threat to Rohan, who are dealing with enough problems due to the Orcs assailing them right now.
    --[X] Perhaps some of the less reclusive elves could take over from Radagast and teach Dunlendings how to make better tools and use their land to the fullest? Then Radagast could help with the cleansing of the gloom upon Arnor, even as the Dunlendings would learn better living and how to better use their existing lands no matter what happens later. Contingent on them stopping the feud with Rohan of course.
    -[X] In any case, immediate action should be taken regarding the Harad situation as well. Perhaps start by sending spies and establishing an underground movement to rescue people and support rebellion? It would probably be difficult if the skin tone and bearing is so very different between the North people and theirs though. Deliver weapons? The lack of means to fight back historically makes the difference between a snuffed rebellion and a successful revolution. All that remains is to figure out who can make and deliver the weapons, and who to deliver them to.
    --[X] Long-term, Umbar will probably have to be dealt with and its power broken before Harad can act freely. A rebellion in Harad might have to be staged while a Fellowship of Heroes ventures into Umbar to hunt down and eradicate the Sauron cult.
    -[X] You yourself would be best positioned to debunk Sauron's claims of divinity, being the closest thing to a peer currently walking the world, but it is too soon to forsake your responsibilities to the newest Children of Eru. Additionally, you are not blind to the possibility of Adunaphael's open activities being a blatant attempt to draw you and the other powers out. The possibility of Unhoused umaiar fleeing south in the wake of Arnor's cleansing is also worth considering: it would do the most good, perhaps, if you were in Harad or Umbar at the same time as the Unhoused flee in that direction, if they do, so that you can deal with them and any sorcerers they bind themselves to if it comes down to it.
    [X] The Rings
    [x] Your projects for the Orcs
    [X] Plan Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness

Adhoc vote count started by ganonso on Nov 20, 2017 at 6:29 AM, finished with 128 posts and 31 votes.

  • [X] One after the other
    [X] Plan Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness
    [X] Arnor
    -[X] Offer to go to the Barrow Downs and take care of the Wights there, personally and permanently. Confer with Miriel as to how widespread the wights are and choose backup from among the Elves, Men and Dwarves as available. Preferably some Lothlorien Elves, plus some Dunedain to act as guides and trackers, given that it's their region and they know it best. With proper manpower, you should still be able to spend a fair bit of time in Moria seeing to your people.
    -[X] Meanwhile, Imladris should work with Miriel to scout the northern lands and see how much of the area can be immediately secured and if a front can or should be preemptively established North of the Angle. Whatever happens in the Barrow Downs will either reveal Nazgul presence or, if absent, indicate that it's actually in the North where the Witch King (or whoever else) are working from at present. One of the Istari or Glorfindel may need to be involved in this.
    -[X] Meanwhile, steps could be taken to make Arnor properly habitable again, starting with Enedwaith. Whatever stasis is on the land, whether because of the Rule of Ringbearers in ancient times or the Witch King's last act of spite, or both, should be lifted and the land made ready to resettle. As it is now, it's all just going to waste. Any two Istari and perhaps Glorfindel should take lead on this. They can take a time to weigh odds and what effort would be required to achieve this, as well as provide a time frame for what will clearly be a long-term, concerted effort. It should be possible to do in stages (Enedwaith and Minhiriath should get priority).
    -[X] By next year, you should have finished dealing with the Barrow Wights and the situation North will be sufficiently scouted. At that point, the decision can be taken to either wage war in the North, or start a concerted effort between Dunedain and Rivendell, or the Grey Havens by the West, to see the ethereal threats dealt with and gloom banished.
    -[X] Long-term, once Enedwaith, at the very least, is cleansed and made ready, the area would make a good place to establish anyone if they agree to abide by the law and custom of Arnor. Perhaps thoughts should be given to the idea of letting the Dunlendings settle there, under Dunedain supervision and guidance. Pacts can be drafted to ensure the claim of the Dunedain on Arnor is maintained, while also removing the Dunlendings from being a threat to Rohan, who are dealing with enough problems due to the Orcs assailing them right now.
    --[X] Perhaps some of the less reclusive elves could take over from Radagast and teach Dunlendings how to make better tools and use their land to the fullest? Then Radagast could help with the cleansing of the gloom upon Arnor, even as the Dunlendings would learn better living and how to better use their existing lands no matter what happens later. Contingent on them stopping the feud with Rohan of course.
    -[X] In any case, immediate action should be taken regarding the Harad situation as well. Perhaps start by sending spies and establishing an underground movement to rescue people and support rebellion? It would probably be difficult if the skin tone and bearing is so very different between the North people and theirs though. Deliver weapons? The lack of means to fight back historically makes the difference between a snuffed rebellion and a successful revolution. All that remains is to figure out who can make and deliver the weapons, and who to deliver them to.
    --[X] Long-term, Umbar will probably have to be dealt with and its power broken before Harad can act freely. A rebellion in Harad might have to be staged while a Fellowship of Heroes ventures into Umbar to hunt down and eradicate the Sauron cult.
    -[X] You yourself would be best positioned to debunk Sauron's claims of divinity, being the closest thing to a peer currently walking the world, but it is too soon to forsake your responsibilities to the newest Children of Eru. Additionally, you are not blind to the possibility of Adunaphael's open activities being a blatant attempt to draw you and the other powers out. The possibility of Unhoused umaiar fleeing south in the wake of Arnor's cleansing is also worth considering: it would do the most good, perhaps, if you were in Harad or Umbar at the same time as the Unhoused flee in that direction, if they do, so that you can deal with them and any sorcerers they bind themselves to if it comes down to it.
    [X] The Rings
    [X] Braca
    [X] Hassan
    [X] pass to Morwen
    [x] Your projects for the Orcs
    [X] Plan Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness
    [X] Hassan
    [X] Gandalf
    [X] Gandalf
    [X] Miriel
    [X] Sauron has stopped to only search for the Ring and now bend his will towards war
    -[X] Discuss options: Defensive alliance, preemtive attack on Minas Morgul or Dol Guldur, putting our own efforts towards finding the Ring to make sure it is denied to the foe? What are our priorities, without those any resistance will be in pieces to be easily swallowed for the enemy?
    [X] Braca
    [X] Hassan
    [x] The reintroduction of the Men of Dunland into the wider stage, and a clear defining of their territories for future diplomatic purposes.
    [x] The 'Evil' that Hassan claims has risen in the south. Anything involving the Black Numenorean bears discussion.
    [x] The condition of the orcs present and the efforts being made.
    [X] Braca
    [X] Morwen
    [x] The reintroduction of the Men of Dunland into the wider stage, and a clear defining of their territories for future diplomatic purposes.
    [x] The 'Evil' that Hassan claims has risen in the south. Anything involving the Black Numenorean bears discussion.
    [x] The condition of the orcs present and the efforts being made.
    [X] About our dream and what could it mean about Sauron's plans
    [X] Braca
    [X] Hassan
    [x] The warning dream you have had. Sauron clearly must be dealt with.
    [x] The reintroduction of the Men of Dunland into the wider stage, and a clear defining of their territories for future diplomatic purposes.
    [x] The 'Evil' that Hassan claims has risen in the south. Anything involving the Black Numenorean bears discussion.
    [x] The condition of the orcs present and the efforts being made.
    [x] The stories of returned heroes and kings and how they're undoubtedly Sauron's Nazgul.
    -[x] Use this lead-in to touch on the issue of the rings and how the whole business of trapping the Fea in the Hroa works. Ask Saruman to offer any insight into the implications.
    --[x] Use our shiny diplomacy stat to make sure Thrain's sensibilities aren't trampled over or his honor besmirched. Also make sure Gandalf doesn't butt in needlessly, or at least doesn't cut Saruman off as he seemed prone to do when he is concerned.
    [x] Any issues the others wish to raise.
    [X] Braca
    [X] Hassan
    [X] Morwen
    [x] The warning dream you have had. Sauron clearly must be dealt with.
    [x] The reintroduction of the Men of Dunland into the wider stage, and a clear defining of their territories for future diplomatic purposes.
    [x] The 'Evil' that Hassan claims has risen in the south. Anything involving the Black Numenorean bears discussion.
    [x] The condition of the orcs present and the efforts being made.
    [x] The stories of returned heroes and kings and how they're undoubtedly Sauron's Nazgul.
    -[x] Use this lead-in to touch on the issue of the rings and how the whole business of trapping the Fea in the Hroa works. Ask Saruman to offer any insight into the implications.
    --[x] Use our shiny diplomacy stat to make sure Thrain's sensibilities aren't trampled over or his honor besmirched. Also make sure Gandalf doesn't butt in needlessly, or at least doesn't cut Saruman off as he seemed prone to do when he is concerned.
    [x] Any issues the others wish to raise.
    [X] Gandalf
    [X] Miriel
    [X] Sauron has stopped to only search for the Ring and now bend his will towards war
    -[X] Discuss options: Defensive alliance, preemtive attack on Minas Morgul or Dol Guldur, putting our own efforts towards finding the Ring to make sure it is denied to the foe? What are our priorities, without those any resistance will be in pieces to be easily swallowed for the enemy?
    [x] Saruman
    [x] Braca and Morwen together
    [X] About our dream and what could it mean about Sauron's plans
    [X] Together

Adhoc vote count started by ganonso on Nov 20, 2017 at 6:30 AM, finished with 1520 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness
    [X] Arnor
    -[X] Offer to go to the Barrow Downs and take care of the Wights there, personally and permanently. Confer with Miriel as to how widespread the wights are and choose backup from among the Elves, Men and Dwarves as available. Preferably some Lothlorien Elves, plus some Dunedain to act as guides and trackers, given that it's their region and they know it best. With proper manpower, you should still be able to spend a fair bit of time in Moria seeing to your people.
    -[X] Meanwhile, Imladris should work with Miriel to scout the northern lands and see how much of the area can be immediately secured and if a front can or should be preemptively established North of the Angle. Whatever happens in the Barrow Downs will either reveal Nazgul presence or, if absent, indicate that it's actually in the North where the Witch King (or whoever else) are working from at present. One of the Istari or Glorfindel may need to be involved in this.
    -[X] Meanwhile, steps could be taken to make Arnor properly habitable again, starting with Enedwaith. Whatever stasis is on the land, whether because of the Rule of Ringbearers in ancient times or the Witch King's last act of spite, or both, should be lifted and the land made ready to resettle. As it is now, it's all just going to waste. Any two Istari and perhaps Glorfindel should take lead on this. They can take a time to weigh odds and what effort would be required to achieve this, as well as provide a time frame for what will clearly be a long-term, concerted effort. It should be possible to do in stages (Enedwaith and Minhiriath should get priority).
    -[X] By next year, you should have finished dealing with the Barrow Wights and the situation North will be sufficiently scouted. At that point, the decision can be taken to either wage war in the North, or start a concerted effort between Dunedain and Rivendell, or the Grey Havens by the West, to see the ethereal threats dealt with and gloom banished.
    -[X] Long-term, once Enedwaith, at the very least, is cleansed and made ready, the area would make a good place to establish anyone if they agree to abide by the law and custom of Arnor. Perhaps thoughts should be given to the idea of letting the Dunlendings settle there, under Dunedain supervision and guidance. Pacts can be drafted to ensure the claim of the Dunedain on Arnor is maintained, while also removing the Dunlendings from being a threat to Rohan, who are dealing with enough problems due to the Orcs assailing them right now.
    --[X] Perhaps some of the less reclusive elves could take over from Radagast and teach Dunlendings how to make better tools and use their land to the fullest? Then Radagast could help with the cleansing of the gloom upon Arnor, even as the Dunlendings would learn better living and how to better use their existing lands no matter what happens later. Contingent on them stopping the feud with Rohan of course.
    -[X] In any case, immediate action should be taken regarding the Harad situation as well. Perhaps start by sending spies and establishing an underground movement to rescue people and support rebellion? It would probably be difficult if the skin tone and bearing is so very different between the North people and theirs though. Deliver weapons? The lack of means to fight back historically makes the difference between a snuffed rebellion and a successful revolution. All that remains is to figure out who can make and deliver the weapons, and who to deliver them to.
    --[X] Long-term, Umbar will probably have to be dealt with and its power broken before Harad can act freely. A rebellion in Harad might have to be staged while a Fellowship of Heroes ventures into Umbar to hunt down and eradicate the Sauron cult.
    -[X] You yourself would be best positioned to debunk Sauron's claims of divinity, being the closest thing to a peer currently walking the world, but it is too soon to forsake your responsibilities to the newest Children of Eru. Additionally, you are not blind to the possibility of Adunaphael's open activities being a blatant attempt to draw you and the other powers out. The possibility of Unhoused umaiar fleeing south in the wake of Arnor's cleansing is also worth considering: it would do the most good, perhaps, if you were in Harad or Umbar at the same time as the Unhoused flee in that direction, if they do, so that you can deal with them and any sorcerers they bind themselves to if it comes down to it.
    [X] The Rings
    [x] Your projects for the Orcs
    [X] Plan Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness
 
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Try at least to propose something Elrond, Gandalf and co could do to settle the problem.
Well, for the Arnor-issues conventional methods should be enough. The Elves and now Dwarves here are yet strong enough to deal with that in regular warfare, I think.
And some wraith are not that big a deal to the people here either.
 
The main problem in Eriador is Carn Dum, but the location of the Barrow Wights is at least as concerning because it's smack-dab in the middle of the populated lands, and next to the most peaceful parts too. Considering the ability of wights to increase their numbers via Morgul Blades, they should be stomped on FAST. Elrond, Glorfindel and Whoever Else might want to go down there and lay the everloving smackdown on the things, permanently, assuming we don't go ourselves.

The Temple thing sounds like a taunt. A taunt with an extraordinary amount of cheek, but a taunt nonetheless, perhaps intending to lure us and/or other strong players out in order to let things proceed according to Sauron's plans otherwise. Given that the news seems to be confined to Eriador, Gondor and Harad so far, I'm rather worried about the things that haven't been mentioned as troubling. Such as, say, Mount Gundabad. I know the War of the Dwarves and Orcs only just finished, and Dol Guldur is supposedly quiescent, but Rhovanion is a mighty big place for nothing to be happening there. Is Sauron going to lure us south so he can go and treat with Smaug without pressures, you think? The Iron Hills probably aren't that well established either, at this point (Dain Ironfoot was mostly responsible for them, I think, after Azanulbizar, but he's here now) and Rhun is right next door to them and Erebor.

All told, it sits ill with me that we're already on the back-foot and forced into the reactionary position. How the hell are the Ringwraiths even powerful enough to do everything they did so much time before Sauron even recovered enough power to keep them manifested in canon (and even then, almost always only during the night)? Our awakening as a Maia of Fire shouldn't have been any sort of boon to him, no matter how proactive humans as a whole became. To have the Nazgul not only as capable as during the Canon War of the Ring but so much sooner than it took him to recover enough strength to Command and power their activities seems a wee bit implausible. And he's only had 2 years to do all o this

The Barrow Wights were also servants of Morgoth, not Sauron if I remember canon well, and they had no reason to look to Sauron with anything beyond contempt. Otherwise they would have been his servants during LOTR, right?

I smell a rat somewhere. Or more than one. Who started smoking Morgoth's Discord when we weren't looking?
 
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The Barrow Wights were also servants of Morgoth, not Sauron if I remember canon well, and they had no reason to look to Sauron with anything beyond contempt. Otherwise they would have been his servants during LOTR, right?
Those Barrows were made long after Morgoth was banished from this world. They are most likely the work of the Witchking and therefore of Sauron.
 
Those Barrows were made long after Morgoth was banished from this world. They are most likely the work of the Witchking and therefore of Sauron.
Maybe, but they're also within Tom Bombadil's territory, and Sauron's reach never extended to them even DURING Lotr, so how is he doing all this now?

@ganonso, how did Sauron ever even do all this in less than 2 years? The Ringwraiths weren't even supposed to be strong enough to materialise for decades, and were unable to walk in dailight for most of the novels too. And whatever our awakening did should have had a weakening or no effect on them at all, not good.

All this is happening way too early. At least a decade or two worth of time (and this quest going on adventures in Rhun and way south where all the rogue Umaiar are, maybe) should have happened before Sauron even gained the ABILITY to start doing anything overt like this. Let alone show this sort of cheek.
 
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Maybe, but they're also within Tom Bombadil's territory, and Sauron's reach never extended to them even DURING Lotr, so how is he doing all this now?
The Barrows were part of Cardolan when the Witchkind desecrated them and I didn't ever read that Bombadil intervened in the war between Arnor and Angmar.
I guess he just stayed inside the Old Forest?
 
The Barrows were part of Cardolan when the Witchkind desecrated them and I didn't ever read that Bombadil intervened in the war between Arnor and Angmar.
I guess he just stayed inside the Old Forest?
Tom 's territory included the Barrows, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to appear and save Frodo & Co from the Wraith, or sing it back to sleep as he did. He didn't intervene in the war at large, but the Wights were always a non-issue because of him, even after the rangers went south and the ruffians started making problems in Bree and the Shire. Just like the Ring was powerless in his domain. Hell, he even made it disappear as a joke.
 
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In OTL the Nazgûl had not their Rings, in my mind because Sauron wasn't sure he could keep their allegiance while he was deprived of the Ruling Ring.

I interpret that without their Rings the Nazgûl were much less powerful and much less prone to individuality with perhaps only Khamûl and the Witch King haivng a distinct personality and the others being just shadows under Sauron's great shadow.

That didn't keep them to rule Angmar semi-openly and have the Witch King come and offer battle. Or to take Minas Ithil after a bloody siege and to make Minas Morgul widely known as their lair.

Your awakening forced Sauron to consider other options, to seek new allies and servants and forsake the search of the Ring for a time. His fear of you led him to give the Nazgûls back their Rings and thus increasing their power and individual range.

Also what they are described doing is not that much. Adunaphael simply walked into a room of people who were already half-worshipping the Shadow. Umbar is not Amon Sûl and none of its high lords is Aragorn. So yeah one of the Numenoreans Nazgûls converted the largest Black Numenorean city. It wasn't that difficult

For Arnor I choose to interpret that the situation we see in LOTR is one where the dark creatures are without chiefs. Even then when Aragorn in the Council of Elrond says that "When the nameless terrors dare not come from the hills because they fear the Rangers" he is not talking about Orcs. A simple ritual to signal everyone a Captain of the Shadow is here and give them more focus.

As for Rhovanion, Dol Guldur was apparently vacated in haste. It is not surprising when you consider why Sauron was there and how in canon he was driven off.

Thinking of it, another option could be to siege Dol Guldur now and destroy it.

Maybe, but they're also within Tom Bombadil's territory, and Sauron's reach never extended to them even DURING Lotr, so how is he doing all this now?

And how did Sauron even do all this in less than 2 years? The Ringwraiths weren't even supposed to be strong enough to materialise for decades, and were unable to walk in dailight for most of the novels too. And whatever our awakening did should have had a weakening or no effect on them at all, not good.

The Witch King summoned them during the destruction of Arnor. I suspect that with other griblies more terrible than Orcs or Trolls they are there to keep the Dunedain from rebuilding their kingdoms.

As for your awakening. It was as your dream showed a neutral effect, your strength blazed and many things were driven to action. The presence of a Balrog in addition to provide Sauron with an impetus to act, even enabling his servants some dangerous autonomy who could backfire.

By instance the Haradrim are much more opressed than in canon and their oppression is very distinctly Sauronic as it is now the religion of Umbar. There are now not many earnest Sauron worshippers in Harad proper.

It also enabled some evil spirits to remember things. The Barrow Wights now remember they are evil spirit and not ghosts.
 
In OTL the Nazgûl had not their Rings, in my mind because Sauron wasn't sure he could keep their allegiance while he was deprived of the Ruling Ring.

I interpret that without their Rings the Nazgûl were much less powerful and much less prone to individuality with perhaps only Khamûl and the Witch King haivng a distinct personality and the others being just shadows under Sauron's great shadow.

That didn't keep them to rule Angmar semi-openly and have the Witch King come and offer battle. Or to take Minas Ithil after a bloody siege and to make Minas Morgul widely known as their lair.

Your awakening forced Sauron to consider other options, to seek new allies and servants and forsake the search of the Ring for a time. His fear of you led him to give the Nazgûls back their Rings and thus increasing their power and individual range.

Also what they are described doing is not that much. Adunaphael simply walked into a room of people who were already half-worshipping the Shadow. Umbar is not Amon Sûl and none of its high lords is Aragorn. So yeah one of the Numenoreans Nazgûls converted the largest Black Numenorean city. It wasn't that difficult

For Arnor I choose to interpret that the situation we see in LOTR is one where the dark creatures are without chiefs. Even then when Aragorn in the Council of Elrond says that "When the nameless terrors dare not come from the hills because they fear the Rangers" he is not talking about Orcs. A simple ritual to signal everyone a Captain of the Shadow is here and give them more focus.

As for Rhovanion, Dol Guldur was apparently vacated in haste. It is not surprising when you consider why Sauron was there and how in canon he was driven off.

Thinking of it, another option could be to siege Dol Guldur now and destroy it.



The Witch King summoned them during the destruction of Arnor. I suspect that with other griblies more terrible than Orcs or Trolls they are there to keep the Dunedain from rebuilding their kingdoms.

As for your awakening. It was as your dream showed a neutral effect, your strength blazed and many things were driven to action. The presence of a Balrog in addition to provide Sauron with an impetus to act, even enabling his servants some dangerous autonomy who could backfire.

By instance the Haradrim are much more opressed than in canon and their oppression is very distinctly Sauronic as it is now the religion of Umbar. There are now not many earnest Sauron worshippers in Harad proper.

It also enabled some evil spirits to remember things. The Barrow Wights now remember they are evil spirit and not ghosts.
I don't have time to debate all the points individually right now, but the fact alone that so much happened in less than 2 years to the point where a bigger council than the Council of the Ring was called, absolutely beggars belief.

Also, miraculously self-aware or no, the Barrow Wights are still in Tom Bombadil's territory and he trumps even Sauron there. He should have no trouble singing a few stern songs to the things, or sealing them in their crypts right and proper for a while. And where do their Morgul Blades come from again? They certainly weren't in those crypts in canon, unlike the barrow blades and those were specifically made to kill the Witch King. Was a morgul blade smithy business set up on the sly somewhere next to Bree in the past 2 years as well? :p
 
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Also, miraculously self-aware or no, the Barrow Wights are still in Tom Bombadil's territory and he trumps even Sauron there. He should have no trouble singing a few stern songs to the things, or sealing them in their crypts right and proper for a while. And where do their Morgul Blades come from again? They certainly weren't in those crypts in canon, unlike the barrow blades and those specifically made to kill the Witch King. Was a morgul blade smithy business set u on the side next to Bree in the past 2 years as well? :p
They stopped Arnorians from resettling Cardolan ever since it's fall. That issue is something to take up with Tolkien, not ganonso.

Either the Barrow Downs go beyond Tom's land, or he doesn't care to intervene there unless called, or Bombadil just isn't a thing outside the actual LotR books, in the greater world of Tolkien.
 
In OTL the Nazgûl had not their Rings, in my mind because Sauron wasn't sure he could keep their allegiance while he was deprived of the Ruling Ring.

I interpret that without their Rings the Nazgûl were much less powerful and much less prone to individuality with perhaps only Khamûl and the Witch King haivng a distinct personality and the others being just shadows under Sauron's great shadow.

That didn't keep them to rule Angmar semi-openly and have the Witch King come and offer battle. Or to take Minas Ithil after a bloody siege and to make Minas Morgul widely known as their lair.

Your awakening forced Sauron to consider other options, to seek new allies and servants and forsake the search of the Ring for a time. His fear of you led him to give the Nazgûls back their Rings and thus increasing their power and individual range.

Also what they are described doing is not that much. Adunaphael simply walked into a room of people who were already half-worshipping the Shadow. Umbar is not Amon Sûl and none of its high lords is Aragorn. So yeah one of the Numenoreans Nazgûls converted the largest Black Numenorean city. It wasn't that difficult

For Arnor I choose to interpret that the situation we see in LOTR is one where the dark creatures are without chiefs. Even then when Aragorn in the Council of Elrond says that "When the nameless terrors dare not come from the hills because they fear the Rangers" he is not talking about Orcs. A simple ritual to signal everyone a Captain of the Shadow is here and give them more focus.

As for Rhovanion, Dol Guldur was apparently vacated in haste. It is not surprising when you consider why Sauron was there and how in canon he was driven off.

Thinking of it, another option could be to siege Dol Guldur now and destroy it.



The Witch King summoned them during the destruction of Arnor. I suspect that with other griblies more terrible than Orcs or Trolls they are there to keep the Dunedain from rebuilding their kingdoms.

As for your awakening. It was as your dream showed a neutral effect, your strength blazed and many things were driven to action. The presence of a Balrog in addition to provide Sauron with an impetus to act, even enabling his servants some dangerous autonomy who could backfire.

By instance the Haradrim are much more opressed than in canon and their oppression is very distinctly Sauronic as it is now the religion of Umbar. There are now not many earnest Sauron worshippers in Harad proper.

It also enabled some evil spirits to remember things. The Barrow Wights now remember they are evil spirit and not ghosts.

Ganonso, if I may ask. Where exactly is the one ring right now? I know this is OOC knowledge, but so much activity on Sauron's side has me worried about the ring. The Nazgul are surely great enemies, Smaug may be treating with Sauron, but nothing worries me more than Gollym, the Ring, and the fact that it literally is right below Goblin-Town if I'm not wrong
 
I don't have time to debate all the points individually right now, but the fact alone that so much happened in less than 2 years to the point where a bigger council than the Council of the Ring was called, absolutely beggars belief.

Also, miraculously self-aware or no, the Barrow Wights are still in Tom Bombadil's territory and he trumps even Sauron there. He should have no trouble singing a few stern songs to the things, or sealing them in their crypts right and proper for a while. And where do their Morgul Blades come from again? They certainly weren't in those crypts in canon, unlike the barrow blades and those were specifically made to kill the Witch King. Was a morgul blade smithy business set u on the side next to Bree in the past 2 years as well? :p

The Barrow Wights have no Morgul Blades. They are not self-replicating. Some of their number are wraiths created by Morgul Blades during the destruction of Arnor, one thousand years ago. For the moment the situation of Arnor is exactly this.

It is not safe to go out at night. Which well is not that different in canon and I remind everyone the Dunedain are not exactly a great army.

As for Tom, he doesn't care. Whatever he is Tom Bombadil is an intensely personal being. He was explictly passing by Old Man Willow when Frodo and co had problems. He gave them his protection but doesn't exactly care of what happens outside the forest. Giving the Ring to him was decided to be a very bad idea by the Council of Elrond because he doesn't care about it.
 
They stopped Arnorians from resettling Cardolan ever since it's fall. That issue is something to take up with Tolkien, not ganonso.

Either the Barrow Downs go beyond Tom's land, or he doesn't care to intervene there unless called, or Bombadil just isn't a thing outside the actual LotR books, in the greater world of Tolkien.
The WItch King himself had to go and stay in the Downs for a while During LOTR in order to rouse the Barrow Wights, and even then they didn't do anything after he left. Well, other than try to snare Frodo & Co while they were passing through, and Tom subdued them easily by singing to them. All the while, they seemed to be well aware they were evil spirits instead of ghosts during that whole chapter of LOTR.

Anyway, setting aside the high quality that I'll have to look for when buying new shock absorbers for my suspension of disbelief, I believe @ganonso wants us to propose solutions to whatever problems we vote on. So...

I'd normally say we should go personally to clear out the Barrow Wights, with Glorfindel and some elves as backup since the Witch King himself may be there, given canon events. Who'd go south then, though?

Maybe we go South instead, since we're basically Sauron's peer and will incite rebellion easiest. That leaves Galadriel and Glorfindel to clear out the downs?

So...

[] Umbar
-[] Offer to go there yourself. As Sauron's peer (or near enough) you'll be best positioned to invalidate whatever foul religion he is trying to openly establish there. Also, you stand the best chance to incite rebellion if possible. This would leave Galadriel, Glorfindel and the rest to see to Arnor, the Barrow Wight problem in particular. If nothing else, it will mean a single front in need of watching in the North.

Incidentally, this provides a good opening for discussing the rings, since we can speculate that the returned queen has one and we can start the debate on the Rings from there. Maybe we can finally free Thrain and his line of it.

On the other hand, we have to tend to our own people too... Fiddlesticks.

And going south may be just what Sauron wants us to do.
 
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What you know
  • Adunaphael got the cult of Sauron already present in Umbar to act openly. Umbar doubled the oppression of the Haradrim (the Cult is taken from GW game)
  • Something is stirring the evil creatures of the ruins of Arnor causing the night to be dangerous
  • Carn Dûm is being rebuilt and apparently a group of dark Dunedain is here or possibly Orcs
  • Rohan is at war with the Orcs displaced during the War of Dwarves and Orcs (Sauron has nothing to do with it)
The Council primary objective was to aqquaint everyone with the new Kingdom of Moria and your Orcs. Along the way Saruman took two people related to the current conflict in Rohan. Elrond brought the Dunedain and Gandalf the Haradrim and the Gondorian. If th council seems bigger than Elrond's it's because Moria is a much more central location than Rivendell.

Also note that everything happening, is happening as it Adunaphael's fleet is doing nothing unusual for Umbar. Carn Dûm is not yet rebuilt. Nothing more than isolaed travellers and some farms got eaten in Arnor.
 
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@ganonso, would it be possible for one of the three Ringbearers to undo the ring-inflicted stasis in Enedwaith and wherever else?

Then maybe we could start an "underground railway" to smuggle out haradrim or otherwise interfere while we incite the fires of rebellion down South (deliver weapons in secret?). We'd be able to put off actually going down there personally for a a year or two, pave way for our arrival so to speak, allowing us to clear out the Barrow Downs ourselves while the Elves help the Dunedain establish the norhtern front properly again. We might even remove the biggest obstacles to the reestablishment of the Northern Kingdom(s) of Men, all the while avoiding the unpleasant scenario of leaving our Orcs without guidance in this sensitive, starting time before they even have a proper culture yet.

Undoing the stasis might also allow the Dunlendings to immigrate into "Arnor" and experience some societal advancement for the first time in... a long time, I imagine, given the health and natural bounty of the land there. Dunedain supervision would probably be both warranted and useful in that.
 
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[X] Your projects for the Orcs

This is the reason Morianor is here and it is his core mission.

Also, redeeming the orcs is a much bigger game changer than Morianor himself running around putting out fires and I think it important to put it front and centre - especially for the wider morale effects. Not only is the ancient enemy stirring, but one of the Valar has intervened to redeem a balrog and has set it to reforge the slaves of the Enemy into a free race.

fasquardon
 
The one Gandalf mentioned a few updates back as the reason why those lands aren't settled.

I see. Making Arnor fit to be settled again requires notably purging the lesser Umaïa who were summoned there as the Witch King last act of spite.

Any two Istari and a focused effort by the Dunedain and Rivendell, or the Grey Havens by the West too, could purge the region of ethereal threats and banish the gloom.

Gandalf can't do it alone but if he's helped by Radagast or Glorfindel and conviced to do it, he can
 
I see. Making Arnor fit to be settled again requires notably purging the lesser Umaïa who were summoned there as the Witch King last act of spite.

Any two Istari and a focused effort by the Dunedain and Rivendell, or the Grey Havens by the West too, could purge the region of ethereal threats and banish the gloom.

Gandalf can't do it alone but if he's helped by Radagast or Glorfindel and conviced to do it, he can
So we have a possible solution for at least one problem, though an actual time frame would be good to have here. Not all of Arnor needs to be done at once, but one region at a time should be possible once the main power behind the stasis breaks. Enedwaith alone could host the Dunlendings and effectively remove one of Rohan's main, long-standing foes and turn them into productive elements of the world.

Gil-Galad ruled there, right? With Elrond's ring?
What you know
  • Adunaphael got the cult of Sauron already present in Umbar to act openly. Umbar doubled the oppression of the Haradrim (the Cult is taken from GW game)
  • Something is stirring the evil creatures of the ruins of Arnor causing the night to be dangerous
  • Carn Dûm is being rebuilt and apparently a group of dark Dunedain is here or possibly Orcs
  • Rohan is at war with the Orcs displaced during the War of Dwarves and Orcs (Sauron has nothing to do with it)
The Council primary objective was to aqquaint everyone with the new Kingdom of Moria and your Orcs. Along the way Saruman took two people related to the current conflict in Rohan. Elrond brought the Dunedain and Gandalf the Haradrim and the Gondorian. If th council seems bigger than Elrond's it's because Moria is a much more central location than Rivendell.

Also note that everything happening, is happening as it Adunaphael's fleet is doing nothing unusual for Umbar. Carn Dûm is not yet rebuilt. Nothing more than isolaed travellers and some farms got eaten in Arnor.
You forgot "Suddenly Sorcerers" which was a big reason why the sheer speed with which Sauron moved things in his favor broke my SOD's shock absorbers. :p Isn't Magic and Guldur really slow to learn and even slower to master? And I thought Guldur came with a high failure (read: madness and/or fatality) rate.

Then again, I suppose those could just be older practitioners faking the "sudden" empowerment for Sauron's benefit, to make the religion seem effective.
 
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So we have a possible solution for at least one problem, though an actual time frame would be good to have here. Not all of Arnor needs to be done at once, but one region at a time should be possible once the main power behind the stasis breaks. Enedwaith alone could host the Dunlendings and effectively remove one of Rohan's main, long-standing foes and turn them into productive elements of the world.

Gil-Galad ruled there, right? With Elrond's ring?

You forgot "Suddenly Sorcerers" which was a big reason why the sheer speed with which Sauron moved things in his favor broke my SOD's shock absorbers. :p Isn't Magic and Guldur really slow to learn and even slower to master? And I thought Guldur came with a high failure (read: madness and/or fatality) rate.

Then again, I suppose those could just be older practitioners faking the "sudden" empowerment for Sauron's benefit, to make the religion seem effective.

Gil-Galad ruled Lindon whose borders shifted along the Second Age.

The Sorcers Adunaphael has are people from the old secret cult of Sauron who already dabbled in the dark arts. They were then posessed by Unhoused or very weak Umaïar to give them a boost. Before that they were like Mellisandre of ASOIF, a bit of power and much knowledge of parlor tricks.

Needless to say she doesn't have many of them and not that many Unhoused to jack into prospective apprentices.
 
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