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Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)

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HanEmpire said:
How about the 370 version, to make it thick too?

[X] We need to build the wall right to begin with. Let us use the Sacred Treasury to build a wall that befits the glory of Eretria, grand enough to impress the whole world! Extend the wall over a large area, fortify the shore and harbour, and thicken it to store grains. [-370 talents, five turns to build].
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I'd prefer we didn't. We're stretching it already both with the time it takes and with the amount of money we're spending. If it weren't for the Liburnians and the Korinthoi both posing serious threats, I wouldn't have added even the sea wall on.

Dipping into the Sacred Treasury is Serious Business, and we're only doing it this time because the need is pressing, the cost is small, and we are repaying the cost completely the next turn.
 
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We need to extend the wall to cover a larger area, so that we may account for the city's growth and plan it in a more orderly fashion. [-270 talents will cover a larger area of the city, three turns to build].
 
While both the enlarged area and sea wall options provide clear benefits, I don't know that the thicker wall one really does. If we get to the stage where our ability to hold siege for a single extra year is crucial, we're already pretty much screwed. (Amusing that Kallias is now for using it as an infrastructure piggy bank though :whistle:)

On diplomacy, I'd think Athens has reasons already to wish to protect the grain we supply them, atop their natural rivalry with Korinth, that it's not worth spending Kallias' limited time strengthening those - we lack any real means to force the Athenians to support us.
The Liburnians are a threat, yes, but a seawall mitigates that threat to a large extent, and while our navy is small, it's skilled and powerful, well able to contest a raiding squadron.
Thus it makes sense to take the opportunity to address Metapontion now. We might as well turn our refusal of Arpus and destruction of Canosa into assets, demonstrating our mastery and disdain of the barbaroi, and attempt to solidify an alliance with a major Greek polis of Magna Graecia, one that has no real reasons for dispute with us, but several joint interests. I'd also point out that turmoil in Sicilia will likely renew the strong flow of Metics to us.

For Rhyps, I share @Cavalier's stance that it doesn't matter in real terms of Harpos status or power, but in order to mollify Rhyps and let bloodlust cool, we could suggest to Harpos that he be crowned King of the Peuketti, but in a year's time, with some form of ceremony marking Eretria sanctioning such, and him reswearing his allegiance in his elevated role. Obviously at the same time he could visit his kids studying at Eretria and reassure himself as to their welfare.

Would such a thing be possible @Cetashwayo?
 
[X] USER MOTION (Ironanvil1): Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] USER MOTION (Cavalier): We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].

@Cetashwayo as a minor element attached to the wall building, laying out a flat area for markets and assemblages involving the Peuketti outside the new walls would make sense.
 
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the ItalianGreeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island'sforemost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for theconstruction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a largerarea so that we may account forthe city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protectthe shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the SacredTreasury].

For the sake of preventing a split vote, let's consolidate on this vote for the Wall.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Who shall lift my rock!?

[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
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I'm not sure that addresses the concerns that Rhyps has. Cetashwayo said they don't really think much of any promise Harpos would make.

EDIT: reference his post here, I tried to do a similar thing.
Cetashwayo said:
This is an acceptable user motion, though cold comfort to Rhyps. It'd be incredibly difficult to prevent Harpos from taking hostile action against Rhyps later and you'd be legitimizing him taking control of the city.
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Ironanvil1 said:
It makes clear that Harpos is King, but under our authority, rather than rampantly grabbing power.
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That's not what Rhyps was worried about though. Also there's the matter of us promising Rhyps not to do exactly this.

EDIT: Also, as has been said before, Rhyps isn't going to be what makes or brakes Harpos' loyalty to us. If denying him this is all takes for him to turn against us, he was likely going to betray us regardless. On the other hand, If he's loyal, something this small is ultimately not going to matter very much.
 
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[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
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[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.
[X] We need to have the wall fortify the shore and harbour, so that we are protected against naval raids and assault. [-270 talents, wall will protect the shore and harbour, three turns to build].
 
Shebe Zuu said:
That's not what Rhyps was worried about though. Also there's the matter of us promising Rhyps not to do exactly this.

EDIT: Also, as has been said before, Rhyps isn't going to be what makes or brakes Harpos' loyalty to us. If denying him this is all takes for him to turn against us, he was likely going to betray us regardless. On the other hand, If he's loyal, something this small is ultimately not going to matter very much.
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Herodion promised Rhyps that we weren't going to unleash Harpos with blood and fire on them, and we aren't. The idea would be that Harpos has a year to reassure and entice Rhyps to accept him. If he can't do that, he's not as smart as we think he is.

The user motion isn't about giving or denying Harpos Rhyps, it's about stamping our authority on the proceedings of the Peuketti, that their King is raised by our will, and cities obey who we tell them to obey. It also makes pretty clear to Rhyps the chain of command and who they can appeal to should Harpos renege and start a reign of terror. Symbolism is hugely important here.
 
"With the death of Syracuse's tyrant, I suppose it would do us good to be aware of how followers of the divine marriage are doing and how many metics wish to turn up on our shores," yells, Iollas, the shifty-eyed merchant.

Switched my vote to going to Metapontion.
I get the feeling that we're going to get a truck ton more metics than last time.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Herodion promised Rhyps that we weren't going to unleash Harpos with blood and fire on them, and we aren't. The idea would be that Harpos has a year to reassure and entice Rhyps to accept him. If he can't do that, he's not as smart as we think he is.

The user motion isn't about giving or denying Harpos Rhyps, it's about stamping our authority on the proceedings of the Peuketti, that their King is raised by our will, and cities obey who we tell them to obey. It also makes pretty clear to Rhyps the chain of command and who they can appeal to should Harpos renege and start a reign of terror. Symbolism is hugely important here.
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Is that really what we're saying though if we're giving this guy pretty much anything he asks for? To me it seems like he really doesn't have a leg to stand on asking us for more when he's already gotten more than he should have, in my opinion.

EDIT: If I recall, this is the guy who responded to us sending some modest gifts with a request for tribute. I think that no matter how much song and dance we put around it, if we crown him, he's going to think himself our equal.
 
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Shebe Zuu said:
Is that really what we're saying though if we're giving this guy pretty much anything he asks for? To me it seems like he really doesn't have a leg to stand on asking us for more when he's already gotten more than he should have, in my opinion.

EDIT: If I recall, this is the guy who responded to us sending some modest gifts with a request for tribute. I think that no matter how much song and dance we put around it, if we crown him, he's going to think himself our equal.
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I believe you're confusing him with the late and unlamented Foetus.
 
Harpos was the guy who fought and lost against Herodion at the Battle of Canthara and subsequently watched as his kingdom turned to ashes around him thanks to his Lucani allies ambushing and destroying his forces. He doesn't tend to take things for granted considering he had to rebuild everything already and I can't think of a time where he deliberately antagonized the Eretrians in the same way as the overconfident Foetus or scheming Arpus did.
 
Shebe Zuu said:
Possibly. My original point still stands though. I think it's going to be hard to claim that we're the almighty overlords when we've pretty much done everything he's been asking us to do.
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Question - what do we lose by providing him these things? What has he learned by it? That loyalty to Eretria has earned him rich rewards, opposing Eretria earned him destruction of all he once possessed.

Other than denying Harpos something for the sake of showing we can deny him something, I don't particularly see what we gain by not making him King under our authority.
 
The Peuketii are a pretty shellshocked and tired people, and Harpos probably most of all. I re-read the old updates and as it turns out in the Great Iapygian War they ended up losing four cities (Altila, Sidis, Bardulos, Bhyton) in a single year, Harpos had to evacuate Sannace, he lost most of the male population of the city...

The Peuketii have like 1,000 men left to properly raise, down from like 3,500 two decades ago. It's no guarantee of Harpos' loyalty, but we're not speaking of an equal here. The Peuketii are weak and denuded, demoralized and exhausted. Years of internecine fighting and civil conflict combined with crisis after crisis has run the society ragged, almost to the breaking point. Harpos' seizure of Canosa and its bloody aftermath was just the punctuating climax of the demise of any kind of the old order among the Peuketii once and for all. Their people have been at the mercy of Lucani, and Dauni raiders under Burbusa a few years ago, and the Eretrians again, and again, and again. You have sacked Bardulos, Andria, Bhyton, Murgia, Azetion.

Insofar as there were plots in Canosa- and there were plots- they were the plots of desperate people with a lot to lose. Now the dust is beginning to clear and you have some essence of stability, but how long it will last no one really knows. One thing is for certain; Harpos has lived it all and come out stronger. Make of that what you will.
 
[X] One King among the Peuketii, one steady hand to deal with, one whelp to crush. What do we care for the fears of the meek in the face of the strong? Harpos has shown himself an extremely capable ruler who is willing to rebuff the Dauni. We can find no such friends among the people of Rhyps, whose only advantage is they cower before us.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We need to thicken the wall to make it impervious to all comers and so that we may store grain in its cavities. [-270 talents, wall will be thicker and extend the ability's to hold out against siege for one year, three turns to build].
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Question - what do we lose by providing him these things? What has he learned by it? That loyalty to Eretria has earned him rich rewards, opposing Eretria earned him destruction of all he once possessed.

Other than denying Harpos something for the sake of showing we can deny him something, I don't particularly see what we gain by not making him King under our authority.
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First, I think you're making a little light of what it means to show we can deny him something. He's already been richly rewarded - too richly, in my opinion, and at some point we need to show him that there's a limit to what he can ask from us.

Second, thinking to the long term, I'd like to see Rhyps hellenized and incorporated into Eretria proper. This will be much easier to do if it's a semi-independant polity than if it belongs to a larger state, even if that larger state is a vassal state.

Third, Harpos strikes me as too clever by half. Giving him a base so close to Eretria may not be a problem now, but it could easily turn into one once the Peuketti recover.

And Finally, we might not be breaking the letter of the promise we made Rhyps with this deal, but we are absolutely breaking its spirit, and that's going to matter in the eyes of anyone else seeking to deal with us.
 
Shebe Zuu said:
Second, thinking to the long term, I'd like to see Rhyps hellenized and incorporated into Eretria proper. This will be much easier to do if it's a semi-independant polity than if it belongs to a larger state, even if that larger state is a vassal state.
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This is never going to happen and I wish people would stop thinking this will :V

Despite actually speaking Greek (albeit a dialect of it) the Macedonians still had to be The Most Greek in their demeanor and dynastic legends in order to be accepted as Greeks, and even then there was always doubts cast. Hellenized peoples in the Mediterranean by the end of the 5th century BCE are a dime a dozen; The Sikels, the Elymi, the Messapii, they're all pretty hellenized. But that never translated into annexation, because the rule of the day in the ancient world among settled peoples was ethnic supremacy. Insofar as Eretria allowed non-Greeks into its citizen patrimony, it still holds itself up in contrast to these specific barbaroi, and its identity is partially tied up in that opposition. What is an Eretria that is not culturally tied to the Greeks and allowed Iapygians into its leagues and walls? Why, not Eretria at all. Despite the Romans being absolutely obsessed with Greece the Greeks didn't really like the Romans until the Romans made the Greeks love them by sacking all their cities.
 
Cetashwayo said:
This is never going to happen and I wish people would stop thinking this will :V

Despite actually speaking Greek (albeit a dialect of it) the Macedonians still had to be The Most Greek in their demeanor and dynastic legends in order to be accepted as Greeks, and even then there was always doubts cast. Hellenized peoples in the Mediterranean by the end of the 5th century BCE are a dime a dozen; The Sikels, the Elymi, the Messapii, they're all pretty hellenized. But that never translated into annexation, because the rule of the day in the ancient world among settled peoples was ethnic supremacy. Insofar as Eretria allowed non-Greeks into its citizen patrimony, it still holds itself up in contrast to these specific barbaroi, and its identity is partially tied up in that opposition. What is an Eretria that is not culturally tied to the Greeks and allowed Iapygians into its leagues and walls? Why, not Eretria at all. Despite the Romans being absolutely obsessed with Greece the Greeks didn't really like the Romans until the Romans made the Greeks love them by sacking all their cities.
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I suppose I should clarify that I envision greek settlement taking place there as opposed to just granting them citizenship. I'd rather not give away control of someplace that I'd like to see in our hands at some point in the future.
 
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