Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
You underestimate SV's vindictiveness.
Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- Reno
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[x] Who are we to reprimand the Peuketii for doing as we asked and finding us food? Woe to the Lucani for ranging out of their territory for grazing, they have paid the price. Let us feast now and then return home with peace of mind and full stomach.
- Location
- Austria
What will give more of a boost to our population growth? I personally see it as the main limiter of our growth, so, uh, anything that gives us more food surplus or more pops is good in my books.
I mean, yeah, our serf growth, whatever, the more serfs, the more food for citizens.
SirLagginton
Shadow Cabal Caerbannog Bun-Bun
- Location
- Arrrghhh
[X] Who are we to reprimand the Peuketii for doing as we asked and finding us food? Woe to the Lucani for ranging out of their territory for grazing, they have paid the price. Let us feast now and then return home with peace of mind and full stomach.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Better agricultural works will help, as will better sanitation. As it is, however, a lot of this stuff is locked behind the Tier III of buildings; each tier represents your ability to organize labor in order to build bigger and better works. Right now you only have the Tier II Government building, and you need to build the Tier III government building in order to build Tier III buildings.
- Location
- Austria
Do we have walls yet?
I imagine with all the barbarians around it's kind of priority: while I am a sucker for population growth, your population having a place to run when a raid happens kinda helps with growth in its own way.("city statistics" thingie is empty and I do recall some sort of several votes where walls lost to wells or whatnot IIRC)
edit: Also, @Cetashwayo , would you mind hiding the map on the first page into the spoiler? It loaded fast enough on my desktop, but I imagine it would be quite different from mobile.
Last edited:
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Do we have walls yet?
("city statistics" thingie is empty and I do recall some sort of several votes where walls lost to wells or whatnot IIRC)
You have thick wooden walls, but no stone walls.
- Location
- Orlando, Florida
@Cetashwayo So, now that the vote went so powerfully in one direction, when can we expect an update?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I'll let the vote run for a bit more and then probably put an update up in a few hours.
[X] Who are we to reprimand the Peuketii for doing as we asked and finding us food? Woe to the Lucani for ranging out of their territory for grazing, they have paid the price. Let us feast now and then return home with peace of mind and full stomach.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I double-checked and I don't know how I figured what I did last time, but both the quarry and underwater spring are done.
- Location
- National Capital Region, USA
[X] Who are we to reprimand the Peuketii for doing as we asked and finding us food? Woe to the Lucani for ranging out of their territory for grazing, they have paid the price. Let us feast now and then return home with peace of mind and full stomach.
The 'Mandatory 24 hour Moratorium' was so irritating I nearly dropped the original quest, to be honest. What it accomplished was to make me skip whatever was said before voting began, and proceed only from there.
When I read an update, and then weigh the options, I generally come to at least a tentative choice before I move on. In an unrestricted quest, that means I can post my choice, with accompanying thoughts, right away. Votes are generally left open for a while, sometimes even several days, before the vote is called and the winning option tallied up.
A 24 hour hold means none of that happens. I have to wait a full day, by which time I've had another full workday behind me, slept, done a score of other things, and usually forgotten what my intention was. I have to possibly read the update all over again, meaning I might have well just waited a day after the update before even bothering to look at it.
'But discussion!'
Yes, and? There is absolutely nothing that prevents voting and discussion from happening. A moratorium and then release only makes sense if you can only post your vote once, cast in stone, and then it is locked forever and ever amen, followed by a rigidly defined and scheduled voting window. None of that applies here. This is an internet forum! You vote can be edited if you are swayed by debate. It can be replaced entirely by a new one, even! The tally programs account for that!
Voting and discussion concurrently is if anything better than a moratorium: You can see how the actual voting is running during, and if you see your preferred choice losing, you have time and motivation to complete a longer and more persuasive post to sway people to your point of view than you might without. A moratorium provides none of that. You might see the arguments, if anyone is making them, but in the absence of seeing the actual voting, you're left to guess the sentiment of the questers by the posts of those that bother to make any during the moratorium, which has never been as revelatory as without it.
It is not the ban on voting that gives the desired end of 'time enough for everyone to be heard, without having to worry about being cut off'. What you want there is a more defined 'I will not call the voted ended until at least X time, so time zones and sleep do not prevent votes and voices from being heard'. You don't want or need a 23 hour moratorium on beginning voting for this, but ending them. Remove the 24 hour ban on starting, and simply say 'You have 24, 48, (or 19.2, or 144, or 3.14159) hours until the vote is called, vote and debate begins now'.
Ceterum censeo 24 Hour Moratorium esse delendam
And Carthage. Fuck those guys.
The 'Mandatory 24 hour Moratorium' was so irritating I nearly dropped the original quest, to be honest. What it accomplished was to make me skip whatever was said before voting began, and proceed only from there.
When I read an update, and then weigh the options, I generally come to at least a tentative choice before I move on. In an unrestricted quest, that means I can post my choice, with accompanying thoughts, right away. Votes are generally left open for a while, sometimes even several days, before the vote is called and the winning option tallied up.
A 24 hour hold means none of that happens. I have to wait a full day, by which time I've had another full workday behind me, slept, done a score of other things, and usually forgotten what my intention was. I have to possibly read the update all over again, meaning I might have well just waited a day after the update before even bothering to look at it.
'But discussion!'
Yes, and? There is absolutely nothing that prevents voting and discussion from happening. A moratorium and then release only makes sense if you can only post your vote once, cast in stone, and then it is locked forever and ever amen, followed by a rigidly defined and scheduled voting window. None of that applies here. This is an internet forum! You vote can be edited if you are swayed by debate. It can be replaced entirely by a new one, even! The tally programs account for that!
Voting and discussion concurrently is if anything better than a moratorium: You can see how the actual voting is running during, and if you see your preferred choice losing, you have time and motivation to complete a longer and more persuasive post to sway people to your point of view than you might without. A moratorium provides none of that. You might see the arguments, if anyone is making them, but in the absence of seeing the actual voting, you're left to guess the sentiment of the questers by the posts of those that bother to make any during the moratorium, which has never been as revelatory as without it.
It is not the ban on voting that gives the desired end of 'time enough for everyone to be heard, without having to worry about being cut off'. What you want there is a more defined 'I will not call the voted ended until at least X time, so time zones and sleep do not prevent votes and voices from being heard'. You don't want or need a 23 hour moratorium on beginning voting for this, but ending them. Remove the 24 hour ban on starting, and simply say 'You have 24, 48, (or 19.2, or 144, or 3.14159) hours until the vote is called, vote and debate begins now'.
Ceterum censeo 24 Hour Moratorium esse delendam
And Carthage. Fuck those guys.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Newcomers have no idea how hard it was to get those wooden walls, either. Not in terms of finance or organization or anything, just in terms of keep the ekklesia focused on one objective and not harrying off for shorter-term economic shinies (that the Peuketti could have just burned down).
"Fellow citizens, for my part I remember the scenes of carnage at Canthara. Those of us who were in the ranks can surely all recall the fearsome thoroughness we saw from the barbaroi Lucani as they slaughtered the Peuketti in their flight. These feather-clad savages were as sure as centaurs in their home grounds of the interior and as quiet as the dead. Though we should easily master them in the push of the pike it is not the way of the barbaroi to engage in manly warfare, but rather to skulk and attack weakness where they find it. We know little of these Lucani save their bloodiness, which fell upon King Harpos to our profit. It would be better to wait to find out what sort of enemy they are, but the mood of the polis is obvious and the will of the gods seems to favor our city with this present of sheep.
Yet the will of the gods is often opaque to men, and changeable besides. Those who find favor with them often overreach and fall to hubris. We should be careful lest such a fate happen to beloved Eretria. While those of our citizens born on this land have known only victory, we must never forget that we were driven from our ancient homes by the Mede. The gods favored the barbaroi then, and they might yet do so again if we fall into impiety or grasp beyond our station; nor should we test the mercy of golden Apollo and shining-eyed Athene.
But if this were done, it were best done with thoroughness. King Harpos, our vassal now, has delivered a measure of revenge for the destruction of his people and city upon the Lucani. We subjugated the Pueketti in part that they might be a buffer between our city and the wilder savages of the interior. We should allow and encourage them to fulfill this role, and trust that the Lucani will focus their own anger on our subjects. The Peuketti will appreciate our yoke all the more if they have made even worse enemies for themselves. We should provide our thanks to Harpos and his people and appreciation for their services rendered so the Peuketti may know us as generous masters. And we should return to Eretria as quickly as possible, with our cavalry and light-armed men in a vigilant screen against the Lucani cavalry and taking the route best known to us. So reluctantly urges Kallias, son of Aristides."
"Fellow citizens, for my part I remember the scenes of carnage at Canthara. Those of us who were in the ranks can surely all recall the fearsome thoroughness we saw from the barbaroi Lucani as they slaughtered the Peuketti in their flight. These feather-clad savages were as sure as centaurs in their home grounds of the interior and as quiet as the dead. Though we should easily master them in the push of the pike it is not the way of the barbaroi to engage in manly warfare, but rather to skulk and attack weakness where they find it. We know little of these Lucani save their bloodiness, which fell upon King Harpos to our profit. It would be better to wait to find out what sort of enemy they are, but the mood of the polis is obvious and the will of the gods seems to favor our city with this present of sheep.
Yet the will of the gods is often opaque to men, and changeable besides. Those who find favor with them often overreach and fall to hubris. We should be careful lest such a fate happen to beloved Eretria. While those of our citizens born on this land have known only victory, we must never forget that we were driven from our ancient homes by the Mede. The gods favored the barbaroi then, and they might yet do so again if we fall into impiety or grasp beyond our station; nor should we test the mercy of golden Apollo and shining-eyed Athene.
But if this were done, it were best done with thoroughness. King Harpos, our vassal now, has delivered a measure of revenge for the destruction of his people and city upon the Lucani. We subjugated the Pueketti in part that they might be a buffer between our city and the wilder savages of the interior. We should allow and encourage them to fulfill this role, and trust that the Lucani will focus their own anger on our subjects. The Peuketti will appreciate our yoke all the more if they have made even worse enemies for themselves. We should provide our thanks to Harpos and his people and appreciation for their services rendered so the Peuketti may know us as generous masters. And we should return to Eretria as quickly as possible, with our cavalry and light-armed men in a vigilant screen against the Lucani cavalry and taking the route best known to us. So reluctantly urges Kallias, son of Aristides."
Rome was always pretty "open minded" about its citizenship with even its founding myth mentioning that it were people of several tribes/cultural groups coming together into a single city. And you need to remember that Rome was located right at the major border of several different cultures (most prominently the Latins and the Etruscans) which meant that its ethnic and cultural make-up was never uniform as it was the case with many greek polis. Plus as I think the GM pointed out the type of regime also played a large role - a quasi oligarchical system (as the Rome had) is far more suited for cultural annexations/additions than a democratic one...
- Location
- Hell
This is exactly the reason we want a moratorium though.
We want to stop fire and forget votes.
The reason is just as enunciated later in your post
This is what @Cetashwayo just mentioned that he wanted, to be able to post an update the next day which requires short voting periods. Such things cause panicked bamdwagons before much discussion takes place if a moratorium is not set in place which leads to the third point
A moratorium not providing that is not a bug, it is a feature. We want time spent discussing the options so we do not have to compromise and vote for our second choice less liked choice to stop the leading worst choice bandwagon.
Not having to fight a bandwagon is a good thing, especially when you would have less than 24 hours to do so.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
The problem the moratorium is meant to address is large numbers of voters coming in, immediately dropping a vote for whatever superficially looks most appealing, and then never coming back to the thread during the voting period. So if they are in fact voting for a terrible idea, and someone points out they are voting for a terrible idea, it becomes a lot harder to overturn that terrible idea if it has gotten off to a strong start because half or more of the people who voted for it won't pay the slightest attention to change their vote.
Cannongerbil
I came here to nep at you
- Location
- Soviet Lunar Base
[x] Who are we to reprimand the Peuketii for doing as we asked and finding us food? Woe to the Lucani for ranging out of their territory for grazing, they have paid the price. Let us feast now and then return home with peace of mind and full stomach.
- Location
- National Capital Region, USA
We have a new feature: Thread alerts. When someone posts in a thread after the last time you read it, it puts an alert in the top corner of your dashboard, informing there are new posts to read. Thus, you can be alerted to new votes, arguments, and read them to become informed as to what people have said in the meantime.
As opposed to a moratorium, which causes even more panicked bandwagons at the last moment since 24 hours has been wasted with no votes. As I pointed out, the argument for a moratorium makes no sense if votes are not permanently locked in. There is no benefit to a moratorium that allowing concurrent voting does not also enjoy, with additional benefits.
And a moratorium solves none of these problems. All it does it push them 24 hours down the road. It does not prevent the exact same thing happening a day later: people voting and considering their part done. Knowing that no voting is possible until a full day later in fact causes the exact problem it supposedly solves: people skipping until that time has elapsed and only then returning to the thread to vote.
