Remove ads

Cliches you can't stand

Aineko said:
Huh, even some fairly grim war-fic stuff can do better than that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I admit I have the strong suspicion, albeit unfounded in any real evidence, that I'm encountering these sorts of "oh well it is what it is" scenes because I don't seek out grim war-fic stuff. In other words, these stories are by writers who don't spend a lot of time setting up the situation to make a more concrete point.

So the story has military stuff because... actually, I'm not sure why a lot of SFF goes into military stuff when the plot didn't need it, but maybe it sells well. And the writer wants to show their characters being Empathic and War Is Bad and all that, but isn't actually experienced enough to do more than "these are 18yo kids on the other side, must we kill them" and not answer that question properly.
 
Aineko said:
On the less extreme agency end of things, there's the basic facts of war that killing people and winning battles are only loosely coupled.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is an assertion that depends a lot on the level at which you are looking at war and the types of battles being fought. Defenders typically win by making costs unacceptably high; higher levels of war allow for maneuver and strategy to defeat the enemy but lower ones are overwhelmingly shaped by the considerations of force. You really can't do very much about having to kill the guys already shooting at you. Even then, destroying the enemy's military ability to resist in a field battle, while increasingly difficult in industrialized warfare, remains a popular plan.
 
Last edited:
Night said:
This is an assertion that depends a lot on the level at which you are looking at war and the types of battles being fought. Defenders typically win by making costs unacceptably high; higher levels of war allow for maneuver and strategy to defeat the enemy but lower ones are overwhelmingly shaped by the considerations of force. You really can't do very much about having to kill the guys already shooting at you. Even then, destroying the enemy's military ability to resist in a field battle, while increasingly difficult in industrialized warfare, remains a popular plan.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
What level are you saying this at, about defenders? I think it's rarely true that the point where a defender wins is defined by when the attacker's losses that already happened cross a threshold. (A defender can win, sometimes before the fighting even starts, by the attacker recognizing that the cost of victory if they attack will be too high. Also after the fighting starts when, say, failure of a quick attack establishes that a position will require a longer and more difficult effort to take.)

Somebody defending their foxhole with a rifle against an attack right now does have a rather limited number of ways to manipulate the situation, especially if they're limited to realistic levels of proficiency (making intentionally non-lethal wounding largely infeasible). However, even there a human (or most animal) enemy's ability to press an attack is separate from and quite poorly coupled to number of dead. The defender will shoot with potential and (their trainers hope) intent to kill attackers, but such an engagement ends when the attackers go away. Not when they're dead.

And destroying the enemy's military ability to resist in a field battle, while it certainly involves killing quite a lot of people, is again not resolved by that. You don't destroy an army by shooting everybody - and if you do shoot everybody in an army, it's very definitely going to be in the form of a post-battle war crime.


Again, this isn't saying 'privates can/should win their firefights bloodlessly'...but is pointing at the mismatch between blood and victory.
 
Given how this conversation went last time without intent of offending you; I don't think you understand the delineating line of when adulthood occurs, or even if it always does. Some people grow up, some people get older.
 
Miath said:
Given how this conversation went last time without intent of offending you;
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well no, I was talking in terms of a different thing that involved foamy, but discussing that will derail the thread, so I will stay on topic.

Miath said:
I don't think you understand the delineating line of when adulthood occurs, or even if it always does. Some people grow up, some people get older.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, I just base it on age, that's all I have to say (which is 18, by the way).

Also, I think you are talking maturity, not adulthood, because adulthood is pretty much the ability of doing stuff in certain aspects. Maturity is the mental thing that people would focus on.
 
So you have some hapless overworked, and underappreciated employee who gets hit by a truck.
He finds himself in a new world! With powers!
He immediately decides he's never going to work for anyone again!

That means he goes into paranoid mode, keeping everything secret and generally acting like there's millions of people searching for him at all times.
Note, he knows nothing about the world and is just assuming people are out to get him.

Luckily, he has a flawless method to know when someone is trying to exploit him.
Bosses Evil People are horrible monsters that scream at you and demand you work for them.

Anyone who is nice and friendly is obviously perfectly trustworthy!
And even if you do lots of favors for them, since you aren't being paid, you aren't "employed" and therefore aren't being exploited!
It's a flawless plan.

Now I'm not going to argue for the trustworthiness of businesses and governments, but lots of stories seem completely oblivious to the idea that individuals might also be acting in bad faith.

This is further compounded by some narrative conventions.
They want to introduce lots of new characters, and they aren't going to bother with convoluted betrayal plotlines, so they take shortcuts making the characters really obvious.
The bad guy is a mustache twirling villain screaming about his evil plan in public.
The nice person going out of their way to help an introverted stranger is a really good person.

The problem is that they often almost perfectly depict a con artist.
Two nearly universal traits of con artists, is that they are really charming, and take the initiative to engage with a stranger.
People with honest jobs have stuff to do, so they usually don't have time to spend several hours teaching some rando how to count money.
A hustler has to get out and hustle, so he's totally willing to step up and help you count money!

That doesn't mean they have to be con artists.
They might just be getting a deal or some other benefit.
Maybe they get a commission for introducing people to a store, or maybe their "generous" offer to buy that monster carcass was a low price.
It's entirely possible for it to be a reasonable "deal," getting convenience at the cost of money, but the main character is completely unaware because they just take it at face value.

The author can write whatever story they want, but it's a little annoying when the character is apparently completely incapable of realizing that other people might have ulterior motives.
Especially when they are basing all their plans and behavior around the idea that mysterious organizations (who often never appear) are out to get them, but they don't actually think of that as an individual interaction.

It would be hilarious to have an isekai story where he gets dropped in, meets some friendly person who warns him "You should never tell anyone about your powers. Especially those guys in the blue uniforms."
Then it turns out that nobody cares about the powers and the people he was warned about were just the police... looking for a con artist.

It's also particularly funny when you apply that to romance.

Historically speaking, most marriages had a lot more to do with socioeconomics than personal feelings, and that doesn't mean it's a bad relationship, but it is something to be aware of.
So when you have a naive character blundering around with seemingly endless money and power, and he rescues a girl from some bandits, and she has no money or way to support herself, and she "falls in love at first sight" ...I'm not completely convinced it's True Love.

And when she immediately turns around and starts talking about how he can have lots of wives and she's totally cool with sharing him, it absolutely sounds like she isn't actually that into him and wants his attention diverted.
 
Last edited:
OP Isekai Protag: "Oh it was nothing, happy to help, i need no reward."
Local adventurers: "Get paid asshole, you are depressing wages and wrecking the economy."
 
Blaflaix said:
Now I'm not going to argue for the trustworthiness of businesses and governments, but lots of stories seem completely oblivious to the idea that individuals might also be acting in bad faith.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

What do you think of the start of Shield Hero? It's a textbook case of "the cute girl you meet at the start of your isekai who wants to help you may not have your best interests in mind."
 
arromdee said:
What do you think of the start of Shield Hero? It's a textbook case of "the cute grl you meet who wants to help you may not have your best interests in mind."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It does that, but it simultaneously is such a shallow and cringy application that it annoyed the hell out of me and I dropped the story.

The king and princess don't seem to have any real benefit from vilifying him, aside from some personal grudge and vague long-term political goals.
If they really wanted to fuck him over, they could've done a much better smear job for much bigger effect.

I'm almost more inclined to forgive the MC being tricked because it's such petty backstabbing.

"I can probably trust them because why would they screw me over? Only the Joker is that crazy."
*Reveal that the King and Princess are, in fact, crazier than the Joker.*
 
"Let's introduce/test the new guy by attacking them like a fucking psycho! There's no possible way this can go wrong!"

I hate this stupid trope, and wish there'd be more consequences then typically happens. Just once I'd like to see the mage who introduces themselves via fireball spam, just lose an arms or something.
 
It's particularly annoying when they respond by being uncharacteristically merciful.
The last 50 ambushes got immediately lethal responses, but this one they used kid gloves.
"Oh, this person looks like a side-character, I better not use my disintegration beam I use for every other fight."

And to make it even worse, the author is introducing a character we know nothing about, having an epic "proving" battle, then immediately nerfing them so they don't undercut the challenges of the rest of the story.
So you have a protagonist who has proven themselves a dozen times in battle, being "tested" by some rando who apparently sat on his ass in the capitol for the entire story so far, and eventually settles in at a 3rd-rate fighter.
It really comes across as a complete dick who isn't nearly as skilled or as important as he thinks he is.
 
Not really a cliche, but can a story take its themes too far?

Like, Shield Hero has themes of trust (and rebuilding trust after betrayal) and cooperation, working together, friendship, etc. etc. but sometimes it feels like it veers into "Co-dependency is awesome!" and "Self sufficiency is for friendless losers!"
 
Thozmp said:
Not really a cliche, but can a story take its themes too far?

Like, Shield Hero has themes of trust (and rebuilding trust after betrayal) and cooperation, working together, friendship, etc. etc. but sometimes it feels like it veers into "Co-dependency is awesome!" and "Self sufficiency is for friendless losers!"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well that is because that garbage is pro rape and pro slavery, so i dont know how you didn't get that.
 
tankdrop24 said:
That will not save you.

I have had a wasp randomly decide to explore under my blankets while I was having a nap.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sounds like you left your windows open, because that is the only way for them to get in there.

Though, personally for me, the worst bug that gets in my room is mosquitoes, little bastards are the worst.
 
I disagree. Wasps have an insane ability of search and sting and a real pleasure to fuck off with things that people underestimate greatly and even closed windows or doors cannot stop.

Look I have a story about this. This story can seem very fake, but no, it's real, it has happened to someone I know. And to be honest, the story is so preposterous and unbelievable that it can only happen in real life, fiction can't invent this kind of things.

So, this person was drivings his 2CV. You know, this old french car because he likes old cars, and well, this story happened more than 30 years ago.
It was summer, so he opened the sunroof. He was driving happily under the sun, on a driveway enjoying the ride, everything was perfect. Probably at 80km/h because this car doesn't go fast and can become very noisy if you try to push it.
But then, suddenly, a wasp smashed on the front window.
"No big deal" he thought. After all, in the past, cars were covered with smashed bugs when driving on a driveway, a lot less now sadly, and the only ones who are happy about this fact, are guys who prefers their car over their wife. This point is not really important to the story, but let's be honest and let's me share a personal opinion : people who prefers their car over their lover sucks. Can work with a bunch of things other than cars, but cars are the winner overall.

So, he was chill about it, but he forgot one thing : it was a wasp. And it's always a big deal when a wasp is involved.
So, pushed by the strong power of Aeolus raging against the window, the wasp slides like an ice skater on the top of the car, and then guided by its strong "search and sting" ability, finding and riding a favorable current of wind, the wasp enters in the car fueled by its pleasure of destruction. And directly dropped bombing on my friend with full power.

There is an important element about my friend I have to share to all of you now : for whatever reason, my friend had the fly of his short opened. Maybe he forgot to close after his last stop in the restroom ? Maybe he wanted a full body tan ? Maybe he was "enjoying" his trip a bit too much ? I don't know and I don't want to know, but now, I suppose you all begin to see where this story is going.

And of course, without surprise, the wasp absolutely dropped in his pants. Imagine : you are driving leisurely and a bit fast and suddenly you have A FUCKING WASP IN YOUR PANT !

Of course, he searched it with his hand. I can't imagine the stress and the fear he has at this moment. But the wasp was ready. The wasp swiftly dodged the hand attacks and prepared his stinger. The wasp has polished its singer since a long time with the hope that one day, it would truly fuck with something or someone life. And today was its big day. The wasp remembered all its training, all the times it has a disappointing sting, all its dreams about the perfect sting.
It puts all its feeling in its stinger and it stroked mercilessly this big stick right in front of it.

And then, it left, with the happiness of a job well done. For my friend... At least, let's say he didn't have an car accident. But the next days... Have been quite displeasant to say it in a gentle way.

And since then, that's why I believe that wasps are naturally pleased with giving suffering to others and that they have an insane, perfectly genetically enhanced by millions of years of training and breeding, "search and sting" ability, whose purpose is to find the most painful place to sting.

And don't tell me the wasp had a reason to be angry and to sting my friend. "Reasons" for wasps can be resumed like "Opportunities to sting".

Moral of the story : if a wasp wanna fuck with you, even if you are in an hermetic bunker, it will find you and it will sting you.

Corollary : Liam Neeson in Taken is a wasp under an human skin.
 
The truth about wasps is that there are a large number of different species with different behavior patterns.

I had a lovely picnic dinner beneath a paper wasp nest, and no one got stung.
 
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top