Fractured Fantasy: A CK2 Style Final Fantasy quest

Sirrocco said:

So... it's an interesting question. How easy is it to get access to the power sources of other Final Fantasy games? Like, the whole GF/Junction system is some pretty potent stuff, even with relatively weak GFs, and it seems like in-game it was mostly a matter of having learned the skills? It maybe required some inherent ability that everyone there had but no one else did? Meanwhile, attaching a secondary class a la Octopath Traveler requires finding an appropriate shrine, and gear from FF9 will teach you skills if you wear it through enough fights. FF7 characters get limit breaks, and FF9 characters get Trance, and I'm not convinced that there's any way for people who don't start with those to learn them.

So...?

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This is something I am considering for my Negaquest, as 'Kaiser' is from a world where it is much easier to change your job class. I think it strongly depends on the narrative of the source, but I'm not exactly in a good headspace for deep contemplation on the topic at the moment.

It doesn't help that Final Fantasy VIII is actually very vague about what Guardian Forces are.
Some of them are physical creatures, that upon being defeated serve you, some of them you magically draw out of monsters, or even other people some of them you find in items. Selphie apparently found one in a monster during a training exercise when she was 12 year old, and managed to hide it long enough to develop the tell-tale memory loss. Are they reduced to voices in your head, are they actually still hanging out elsewhere, but just make a pact that lets them strengthen you, and show up to wreck faces at your order? Unclear.

Sirrocco said:

FF7 characters get limit breaks, and FF9 characters get Trance, and I'm not convinced that there's any way for people who don't start with those to learn them.

So...?

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Trance is a 'you have it or you don't' thing, with it requiring a particular soul-level characteristic, to my knowledge. It's why Kuja needed to literally break into the afterlife to try and acquire it - he needed to find a soul capable of accessing Trance and use it as a workaround.

Shogeton said:

It doesn't help that Final Fantasy VIII is actually very vague about what Guardian Forces are.

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Yeah, the thing is, FF8 is more interested in GFs as a plot device to explain away the glaring issues with the Orphanage Reveal than it is in actually exploring what these entities are and where they came from - really, one could probably remove their causes-memory-loss thing from the story entirely if you just cut down how many of the playable cast was at said orphanage from 'everyone but Rinoa' to 'Squall, Seifer, and Irvine.'

More or less the way I have it, all power sources are completely viable, but the conditions to wield them vary, and of course the people most suited to use them are the people from the same world or originated from. As an example, anyone with even the slightest hint of magical potential could use Materia since all it really requires is a Materia in a slot. The problem is, Shinra knows how to make Materia and weapons that use it. Other people see a big chunk of magic and aren't sure what to make of it.

Class changing/dual classing is something that I think anyone can do with sufficient time and dedication, but it might be easier or harder depending on the devotion of the person to their original class, and their aptitude for the new one. A shrine, Crystal Shard, or Asterisk would just be a shortcut (note, we don't have Asterisks here. I didn't include the Bravely series, because I haven't played them much)

As for summons, I see it as being a different in methodology. Summoners are born to form bonds with spirits of all kinds, and Noctus's family extracted a pact with the Astrals of his world. Calling them is their birthright, and aside from proving themselves personally capable, don't require extra effort. FF6's Magicite is the corpse of an Esper, a magical focus that allows anyone to bring them to life. FF7's summon Materia is the same thing but manufactured, and quite a bit weaker I wager.

For Guardian Forces, I see it as the same as a normal summon, contracting a spirit to fight and assist you. The difference is in how long lasting a bond it is, and the fact that SeeD don't have a particular resilience or innate connection that ties them to these entities. Forging a connection that deep is difficult, and so is maintaining it. I suppose it could be taught, but not in a short timeframe.

griffinlw said:

For Guardian Forces, I see it as the same as a normal summon, contracting a spirit to fight and assist you. The difference is in how long lasting a bond it is, and the fact that SeeD don't have a particular resilience or innate connection that ties them to these entities. Forging a connection that deep is difficult, and so is maintaining it. I suppose it could be taught, but not in a short timeframe.

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Mind you, I imagine that if you encounter one, it might not be super hard to at least junction it. Selphie did it when she was 12, and in a place that didn't train with Guardian Forces. Rinoa was not trained at all, and could start using them right away. Obviously, there's some division between story and game mechanics though.

Of course, there's probably a reason that SeeD are the only ones that are actively using them. Partly probably the 'rumoured' memory loss thing. Few people want to risk losing their memories. (And that in a way is the price that is paid for having access to summoner power relatively 'easily', you lose parts of yourself when you use them)

... Well, I had a post, then Griffin just confirmed that!

Though, with that said--would it be possible for say, Faris, to get a Trance (FF9)? In essence, while Materia, GFs, Prismariums*, Magicite, and such are all things that can be freely exchanged and drawn on for power, it seems that stuff like Trance or limit breaks are all more... "Innate," for lack of a better way to put it.

*The implication I got from WoFF was that prismariums, by themselves, are freely usable by anyone. Imprisming or making prismariums freely relies on the Architect-and-Breaker abilities the twins use through the game. If this isn't how you're handling things, then please mark Prismariums off my list.

MagewyrmMira said:

Though, with that said--would it be possible for say, Faris, to get a Trance (FF9)? In essence, while Materia, GFs, Prismariums*, Magicite, and such are all things that can be freely exchanged and drawn on for power, it seems that stuff like Trance or limit breaks are all more... "Innate," for lack of a better way to put it.

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Hmm... I suppose there's no reason she couldn't? I wanted to try and give everyone a Limit break or Trance equivalent, but some characters were receptive to the idea (Aerith has a canon set of Limit Breaks, which I have plotted some upgrades for) and others were very much not (Several Class Based games don't have them at all. Many of the random effect limit breaks feel incredibly risky in this system.) From a gameplay perspective, there's nothing stopping me from giving everyone a Limit break or a Trance, but I don't want to just hand them out like candy.

I feel like saying that people at least don't start out with them is fair. I feel like it should be the sort of thing that one acquires rather than just has just because. Possibly Limit Break is something that you gain over time after extended exposure to magicite and/or Mako in combat? Trance obviously fills the same slot, channeled in a somewhat different way, and might arise from extensive use of FF9-style skill-granting gear.

Sirrocco said:

I feel like saying that people at least don't start out with them is fair. I feel like it should be the sort of thing that one acquires rather than just has just because. Possibly Limit Break is something that you gain over time after extended exposure to magicite and/or Mako in combat? Trance obviously fills the same slot, channeled in a somewhat different way, and might arise from extensive use of FF9-style skill-granting gear.

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... Again, lore-wise Trance isn't a learnable thing, it's something you either have the appropriate kind of soul for or you don't. The only person who achieves Trance without having always been able to is Kuja, and he has to break into the afterlife and strap the soul of someone who could Trance to his own to do so - speaking of, the soul in question is implied to be that of Queen Brahne.

wetodet said:

... Again, lore-wise Trance isn't a learnable thing, it's something you either have the appropriate kind of soul for or you don't. The only person who achieves Trance without having always been able to is Kuja, and he has to break into the afterlife and strap the soul of someone who could Trance to his own to do so - speaking of, the soul in question is implied to be that of Queen Brahne.

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He didn't break into the afterlife, Brahne's soul was just stored in the Invincible. And I think Kuja was artificially prevented from achieving Trance by Garland if I recall right. So it should be something anyone can do. For gameplay reasons certain characters (the guests) don't. But I didn't get the impression it was some special soul thing. Not like Brahne was running around in Trance either so it's not a thing anyone who could do it did.

Unrelated to Trance, but Opera Omnia has a lot of characters with fancy moves, might be a potential pool to pull from for Limit Breaks if need be. Record Keeper too.

Guardian Forces contract at least in the onset seems to rely on a summoner and spirits sharing the body. In the end through that the physical capabilities of a summoner were increased but the summoning also left the spirit more vulnerable. Didn't it also rely on compatibility which decreased the summoning timer the more you used the GF?

Mirron said:

Unrelated to Trance, but Opera Omnia has a lot of characters with fancy moves, might be a potential pool to pull from for Limit Breaks if need be. Record Keeper too.

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I'd say Record Keeper might be the better pull for limit breaks in particular, while Opera Omnia might be better for unique character identities and passives? Admittedly, I'm only familiar with Record Keeper, but from asking around, Opera Omnia's abilities tended to be a lot more free-use and... Emphasized being mechanically distinct, for lack of a better way of putting it.
Meanwhile the meat and potatoes of Record Keeper was more in the "Soul Breaks" you can use, with those effects being what really defined the characters.

Kirya said:

Didn't it also rely on compatibility which decreased the summoning timer the more you used the GF?

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Yes, but summoning time is the only thing effected... And, from my recollections, not even all that significant.

MagewyrmMira said:

I'd say Record Keeper might be the better pull for limit breaks in particular, while Opera Omnia might be better for unique character identities and passives? Admittedly, I'm only familiar with Record Keeper, but from asking around, Opera Omnia's abilities tended to be a lot more free-use and... Emphasized being mechanically distinct, for lack of a better way of putting it.
Meanwhile the meat and potatoes of Record Keeper was more in the "Soul Breaks" you can use, with those effects being what really defined the characters.

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OO abilities are all basically limit breaks for characters who have them though is the big point.

Fair enough.

On a different note, has the Garnet's Choice contest ended? I have a story I'd like to share, but I'd like to wait until after the active contest to submit more likely-apocrypha.

MagewyrmMira said:

Fair enough.

On a different note, has the Garnet's Choice contest ended? I have a story I'd like to share, but I'd like to wait until after the active contest to submit more likely-apocrypha.

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I intended to end it a couple days ago, but we had the votes on the squad stuff, and I didn't want to open a vote for that right before another active vote, that said, it's going to take a bit longer for us to finish preparations for the Siege, so... I should probably call an official end to the contest and open that vote.

[X] Garnet's Choice (Princess)

[X] A Road To Walk (Summoner)

Hey @griffinlw any chance we can buy armor in traverse town or is it straight to the fight?

[X] Garnet's Choice (Princess)

[X] Garnet's Choice (Princess)

[X] A Road To Walk (Summoner)

[X] Garnet's Choice (Princess)

[x] A Road To Walk (Summoner)

[X] A Road To Walk (Summoner)