[X] Plan By the Shadow of All Things
-[X] ANALYTICAL MODELING INTUITION (Daemon Lorgar): What answer do you think could undo the progress you have made?
-[X] Spend a willpower for +1 Success
-[X] Use CRACKED CELL CIRCUMVENTION to enhance the roll
-[X] Give it to him
-[X] Having said that turn to the Daemon: "Oh how clearly you claim to see. Tell me Daemon does the view ever mist around the edges, like dew on glass, does the window shake? Perhaps you think it's Essence, that power you can never touch. Maybe that's all it is, tell yourself that. Tell yourself it's not fear in the secret heart of the things you name 'God'." Step closer. "They fear us. Men have killed gods before. Conjure visions by that if you dare."
 
We can talk to Lorgar later when we do not have the Shit Stirrer Supreme next to us. It is not like he is going to lose his ability to change his mind after this.

I think choices in the Vision Quest have more impactful consequences than talking to him afterwards, particularly in terms of his Mythos, so he may actually not have the ability to change his mind, or more particularly his legend, after this.

I'm now of something like:

[] Know your enemy
- [] AMI on Lorgar to understand what he knows of the character of the Ruinous Powers
- [] Is this the best you can do? Increasingly contrived dilemmas where you impose a false binary choice? You just spoke of the virtues of power, and one of those virtues is that you can make new options. Lorgar's choice was not just between diplomacy and conquest. Subversion, leadership change, or simply spending the effort that would be spent on conquest to make new friends and allies elsewhere to compensate for the lack of this system. This is you and your owners' flaw and their crime, that they and you try to reduce our choices to the base ones they want us to have. They may be prisoners of their nature, but we do not have to be. In adversity, if our ideals are tested and found wanting, we can refine them and update them. You can not, so are blind to the other choices Lorgar could make.

So, this write-in is intended to hit the fact that as a Demi-God not a God Lorgar is not a slave to his Mythos, so has a much wider range of choices than a Chaos God would, and to needle Daemon Lorgar about how he's not a real person any more.
 
I think choices in the Vision Quest have more impactful consequences than talking to him afterwards, particularly in terms of his Mythos, so he may actually not have the ability to change his mind, or more particularly his legend, after this.

I'm now of something like:

[] Know your enemy
- [] AMI on Lorgar to understand what he knows of the character of the Ruinous Powers
- [] Is this the best you can do? Increasingly contrived dilemmas where you impose a false binary choice? You just spoke of the virtues of power, and one of those virtues is that you can make new options. Lorgar's choice was not just between diplomacy and conquest. Subversion, leadership change, or simply spending the effort that would be spent on conquest to make new friends and allies elsewhere to compensate for the lack of this system. This is you and your owners' flaw and their crime, that they and you try to reduce our choices to the base ones they want us to have. They may be prisoners of their nature, but we do not have to be. In adversity, if our ideals are tested and found wanting, we can refine them and update them. You can not, so are blind to the other choices Lorgar could make.

So, this write-in is intended to hit the fact that as a Demi-God not a God Lorgar is not a slave to his Mythos, so has a much wider range of choices than a Chaos God would, and to needle Daemon Lorgar about how he's not a real person any more.

Honestly I would rather not risk checking if we can reason our way out of this. Daemon Lorgar built the trap so he would know what questions he cannot answer, find out what they are and deal with the impact later, we have a whole quest because you are right our Lorgar is not a slave to his Mythos so he can change his mind later.

can someone correct me but CCC is being used/proc-ed because we're only given 2 choices instead of 3, 10, or many more?

No, it is because we have an artifact that allows us to declare ourselves trapped and then use it.
 
[X] Plan By the Shadow of All Things
-[X] ANALYTICAL MODELING INTUITION (Daemon Lorgar): What answer do you think could undo the progress you have made?
-[X] Spend a willpower for +1 Success
-[X] Use CRACKED CELL CIRCUMVENTION to enhance the roll
-[X] Give it to him
-[X] Having said that turn to the Daemon: "Oh how clearly you claim to see. Tell me Daemon does the view ever mist around the edges, like dew on glass, does the window shake? Perhaps you think it's Essence, that power you can never touch. Maybe that's all it is, tell yourself that. Tell yourself it's not fear in the secret heart of the things you name 'God'." Step closer. "They fear us. Men have killed gods before. Conjure visions by that if you dare."
 
Honestly, I'm kind of wondering "Everyone agrees we should use this, should we just get the answer now and then tailor our argument accordingly?"
 
3. Keth - Change timeline

Can be used for anything. This word changes what is with what could have been. The limitation here is the lower the probability of something happening, the lower the chance that this word can substitute the result of that time line with the main one.
. . . forgot we had this . . .
*looks at the 3rd trial results* well anyways, Yzarc i don't see any cost to its usage in the character sheet, wasn't there a cost that was shown when we discovered the words?
 
[X] Plan By the Shadow of All Things
-[X] ANALYTICAL MODELING INTUITION (Daemon Lorgar): What answer do you think could undo the progress you have made?
-[X] Spend a willpower for +1 Success
-[X] Use CRACKED CELL CIRCUMVENTION to enhance the roll
-[X] Give it to him
-[X] Having said that turn to the Daemon: "Oh how clearly you claim to see. Tell me Daemon does the view ever mist around the edges, like dew on glass, does the window shake? Perhaps you think it's Essence, that power you can never touch. Maybe that's all it is, tell yourself that. Tell yourself it's not fear in the secret heart of the things you name 'God'." Step closer. "They fear us. Men have killed gods before. Conjure visions by that if you dare."
 
Even with the game rigged he isn't wrong. It's a trolly problem. There isn't always a third option and a sacrifice must be made. He can always step down afterwards as penence for what he had to do. He may have lost personally but he hasn't completely lost as long as the civ he made the sacrifice for continues to honor it.
 
Even with the game rigged he isn't wrong. It's a trolly problem. There isn't always a third option and a sacrifice must be made. He can always step down afterwards as penence for what he had to do. He may have lost personally but he hasn't completely lost as long as the civ he made the sacrifice for continues to honor it.
There's the thing if he wasn't making an allegory about power using the trolley problem it would be fine. The trolley problem inherently supposes that you can't just derail and catch the trolley. It's supposes that you have limited capabilities as a normal human that you cannot just jump in front of the trolley and stop it with your hands. The trolley problem as the levels power go up has to be commensurate and a tactical hard point is not commensurate to having a functional space Empire, because you can just not engage with that planet and come back with allies later, you can just ignore them and if they attempt to be a problem shoot them down in space, you can set up an interdiction Zone where your ships move essentially 5 astronomical units out from the planet so you can have firm streams and set up that way if they have a problem with it they can make themselves a problem you can deal with them without guilt there are a large gamut of options rather than diplomacy or genocide. Lorgar knows this as both a demigod and a greater demon Prince that his abilities range significantly farther than genocide or diplomacy to the point where he has literally magic entire planets away before.
 
Last edited:
As said, from the framework of informal logic, this scenario is an informal fallacy, the fallacy of bifurcation.

However, one would also be interested in examining the scenario via formal logic to determine if there is also a formal fallacy.
 
There's the thing if he wasn't making an allegory about power using the trolley problem it would be fine. The trolley problem inherently supposes that you can't just derail and catch the trolley. It's supposes that you have limited capabilities as a normal human that you cannot just jump in front of the trolley and stop it with your hands. The trolley problem as the levels power go up has to be commensurate and a tactical hard point is not commensurate to having a functional space Empire, because you can just not engage with that planet and come back with allies later, you can just ignore them and if they attempt to be a problem shoot them down in space, you can set up an interdiction Zone where your ships move essentially 5 astronomical units out from the planet so you can have firm streams and set up that way if they have a problem with it they can make themselves a problem you can deal with them without guilt there are a large gamut of options rather than diplomacy or genocide. Lorgar knows this as both a demigod and a greater demon Prince that his abilities range significantly farther than genocide or diplomacy to the point where he has literally magic entire planets away before.
I'm pretty sure even Emps has to deal with the issue of morals vs results. If he didn't find his sons fast enough Chaos digs in even more. If he didn't put together an intergalactic empire fast enough then things like the Ragdan would have wiped or almost wipe the galaxy. If he told people about chaos they'd become more powerful so he had to destroy all religion instead of investigating each and everyone.

In the case of a galactic empire or any empire at all the problem will come down to resources and time. You may choose the moral option but lose the physical victory. You might preserve the physical victory but lose the soul. That's what the imperium is at it's roots. It kept humans alive but they lost their souls in exchange.

Edit: The MC had to do the same in miniature. Just like emps had to bargain with Mars due to missing a supply line and tech. The MC had to negotiate for tech and future support. It shows that somethings can't be avoided and you don't have anything better then a binary choice.

The thought that learn and grow will stop this from happening again is nice but that won't resolve the issues caused by said choice especially if for whatever reason you aren't around to correct it. Like Emps got out in his chair before he could fix anything he had to do during the crusade era.
 
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure even Emps has to deal with the issue of morals vs results. If he didn't find his sons fast enough Chaos digs in even more. If he didn't put together an intergalactic empire fast enough then things like the Ragdan would have wiped or almost wipe the galaxy. If he told people about chaos they'd become more powerful so he had to destroy all religion instead of investigating each and everyone.

In the case of a galactic empire or any empire at all the problem will come down to resources and time. You may choose the moral option but lose the physical victory. You might preserve the physical victory but lose the soul. That's what the imperium is at it's roots. It kept humans alive but they lost their souls in exchange.

Edit: The MC had to do the same in miniature. Just like emps had to bargain with Mars due to missing a supply line and tech. The MC had to negotiate for tech and future support. It shows that somethings can't be avoided and you don't have anything better then a binary choice.

The thought that learn and grow will stop this from happening again is nice but that won't resolve the issues caused by said choice especially if for whatever reason you aren't around to correct it. Like Emps got out in his chair before he could fix anything he had to do during the crusade era.
There's the thing that's a bargain both sides receive give and take but it's not binary there are sub details and actualities and realities that come with Bargains like that. The emperor is facing monumentous time crunch and resource crunch as well as goals needing to be met before life wipe and Eternal Universal damnation conditions start forming.

The point I was making is that his scenario is very obviously and pointedly a fallacy a complex and pointed scenario such as the possible conquest of another planet obviously has larger implications than just diplomacy or murder. Even if those are the general overtures that are taken the options within those two paths are massive. So while you are correct in the you have to make a choice even from a violence perspective it's very rare that war will net you anything a couple of well placed assassinations and willing collaborators wouldn't. Which is what I mean by being an obvious and pointedly a fallacy.
 
There's the thing that's a bargain both sides receive give and take but it's not binary there are sub details and actualities and realities that come with Bargains like that. The emperor is facing monumentous time crunch and resource crunch as well as goals needing to be met before life wipe and Eternal Universal damnation conditions start forming.

The point I was making is that his scenario is very obviously and pointedly a fallacy a complex and pointed scenario such as the possible conquest of another planet obviously has larger implications than just diplomacy or murder. Even if those are the general overtures that are taken the options within those two paths are massive. So while you are correct in the you have to make a choice even from a violence perspective it's very rare that war will net you anything a couple of well placed assassinations and willing collaborators wouldn't. Which is what I mean by being an obvious and pointedly a fallacy.
Ah your saying he's missing a few categories on his CK2 options, if I'm understanding the argument correctly. The thing is wouldn't assassination as you've used as an example be in line with the military option? The only difference being only a few people would know. So then the question becomes what are the acceptable ways to conduct these things?

If he for example puts pressure on the planet using the economy then he'd still forcing them and indirectly potentially killing them even if most see it as ethical. Culturally/religiously would risk wiping their people's identity. A show of force which emphasizes that they can't win and forces them to open up just creates future issues.

The only way I can think of to keep his morals and win the scenario is having either so much power or tech a weakness caused by a strategically important planet won't mean much. If this wasn't chaos it'd be a good thought experiment.
 
Honestly I would rather not risk checking if we can reason our way out of this. Daemon Lorgar built the trap so he would know what questions he cannot answer, find out what they are and deal with the impact later, we have a whole quest because you are right our Lorgar is not a slave to his Mythos so he can change his mind later.

He's not a slave to his Mythos, but I also don't think his Mythos can be readily changed later.

A sub-goal of the Chaos Gods here might be, if they can't win Lorgar over to their side, to damage his potential by getting him to lock his Mythos into an undesirable configuration for us that makes it harder to apply as we want later.

Ah your saying he's missing a few categories on his CK2 options, if I'm understanding the argument correctly. The thing is wouldn't assassination as you've used as an example be in line with the military option? The only difference being only a few people would know. So then the question becomes what are the acceptable ways to conduct these things?

If he for example puts pressure on the planet using the economy then he'd still forcing them and indirectly potentially killing them even if most see it as ethical. Culturally/religiously would risk wiping their people's identity. A show of force which emphasizes that they can't win and forces them to open up just creates future issues.

The only way I can think of to keep his morals and win the scenario is having either so much power or tech a weakness caused by a strategically important planet won't mean much. If this wasn't chaos it'd be a good thought experiment.

The thing is, it's a big galaxy. There are lots of alternative choices, like go two sectors over and use diplomacy to convince a system there to joint up.

Or, when you're a tremendously powerful precognitive demigod allied with an Infernal Exalted predict the potential issue and do something different a decade earlier so you don't get caught up in a situation where you only have two bad choices, and instead you have contingency options.

In some limited scenarios trolley problems exist they're very rare when you Harv the diversity of powers we do.

And I mean that. By the time we get around to conquering planets we'll be able to have, for example, superhumanly intelligent and charismatic shapeshifting mind reading memory eating infiltrators who can turn invisible at will and are near impossible to detect by conventional means. We can then do things like have them kill and replace the leadership of recalcitrant planets in extreme cases like this.

There's also a quite fair argument to make that small polities are rapidly becoming non-viable in this galaxy, and that for their populations to survive the resurgent orks and expanding Rangdan they have to join up.

The problem then is the unreasonable leadership of that polity that refused to accept that reality and instead dragged their people down into the Abyss with them in a futile attempt to retain their own power and privileges.

hmm, if the entire encounter was going to use the Socialize Ability then it was suboptimal to upgrade Close Combat
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We have another major incoming threat, which is the army of chaos warriors which outnumbers our 'military' ten to one whilst also being individually superior to each of our troops.

A big issue we have is that Daemon Lorgar seems to be making all the running on the Vision Quest. I think the big mistake we made was picking Corax as the other spirit guide. He's been a liability so far as far as I can tell.

And seeing as Corax himself was a poor fit for much of the Great Crusade, he's a very poor fit for helping guide Lorgar develop on a way where he can take part in it. He's similarly enough to Lorgar in ethos that he can't stretch him to develop in ways that help.

We'd have been better off with the Lion, who could inspire our Lorgar to seek greatness.
 
Last edited:
The thing is, it's a big galaxy. There are lots of alternative choices, like go two sectors over and use diplomacy to convince a system there to joint up.
Problem here is the Warp "highways". They start and end in certain systems. Cholchis is one such Highway, hence why I said your system has value when/if you start expanding or when the Imperium comes.

What Daemon Lorgar provided was one other such system that had a Warp highway that lead directly into your nation's hearthlands.

Meaning who ever controlled that system, controlled the equivalent of the backdoor to your nation, that would allow them to bypass a lot of your defences.

It was never about the people of that system but the enemies who could have no quams of conquering that place to attack you.

A better example would be Imperial Germany going through Belgium to attack France, but with no British in the winds.

The game was rigged and the best lies are those that are true.
 
He's not a slave to his Mythos, but I also don't think his Mythos can be readily changed later.

A sub-goal of the Chaos Gods here might be, if they can't win Lorgar over to their side, to damage his potential by getting him to lock his Mythos into an undesirable configuration for us that makes it harder to apply as we want later.

Well then, asking Lorgar 'what will undo your progress?' should not have us fall back on his plan B, but on what he thinks will lead to the worst outcome for him and his Gods.
 
Back
Top