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Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

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If you have an idea about some sort of OOC knowledge that would make this whole sham fall apart in Lorgar's eyes, you can use AMI to attempt to retrieve it with a well-constructed question.
 
[X] Plan By the Shadow of All Things
-[X] ANALYTICAL MODELING INTUITION (Daemon Lorgar): What answer do you think could undo the progress you have made?
-[X] Spend a willpower for +1 Success
-[X] Use CRACKED CELL CIRCUMVENTION to enhance the roll
-[X] Give it to him
-[X] Having said that turn to the Daemon: "Oh how clearly you claim to see. Tell me Daemon does the view ever mist around the edges, like dew on glass, does the window shake? Perhaps you think it's Essence, that power you can never touch. Maybe that's all it is, tell yourself that. Tell yourself it's not fear in the secret heart of the things you name 'God'." Step closer. "They fear us. Men have killed gods before. Conjure visions by that if you dare."

Lorgar knows himself, both versions, whatever he thinks will undo his progress likely will. Also since he seems to have so much fun offering revelations to others, lets share one of our own.
 
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[X] Plan By the Shadow of All Things
-[X] ANALYTICAL MODELING INTUITION (Daemon Lorgar): What answer do you think could undo the progress you have made?
-[X] Use CRACKED CELL CIRCUMVENTION to enhance the roll
-[X] Give it to him
-[X] Having said that turn to the Daemon: "Oh how clearly you claim to see. Tell me Daemon does the view ever mist around the edges, like dew on glass, does the window shake? Perhaps you think it's Essence, that power you can never touch. Maybe that's all it is, tell yourself that. Tell yourself it's not fear in the secret heart of the things you name 'God'." Step closer. "They fear us. Men have killed gods before. Conjure visions by that if you dare."
 
[X] Plan By the Shadow of All Things
-[X] ANALYTICAL MODELING INTUITION (Daemon Lorgar): What answer do you think could undo the progress you have made?
-[X] Use CRACKED CELL CIRCUMVENTION to enhance the roll
-[X] Give it to him
-[X] Having said that turn to the Daemon: "Oh how clearly you claim to see. Tell me Daemon does the view ever mist around the edges, like dew on glass, does the window shake? Perhaps you think it's Essence, that power you can never touch. Maybe that's all it is, tell yourself that. Tell yourself it's not fear in the secret heart of the things you name 'God'." Step closer. "They fear us. Men have killed gods before. Conjure visions by that if you dare."
 
[X] Plan By the Shadow of All Things
-[X] ANALYTICAL MODELING INTUITION (Daemon Lorgar): What answer do you think could undo the progress you have made?
-[X] Use CRACKED CELL CIRCUMVENTION to enhance the roll
-[X] Give it to him
-[X] Having said that turn to the Daemon: "Oh how clearly you claim to see. Tell me Daemon does the view ever mist around the edges, like dew on glass, does the window shake? Perhaps you think it's Essence, that power you can never touch. Maybe that's all it is, tell yourself that. Tell yourself it's not fear in the secret heart of the things you name 'God'." Step closer. "They fear us. Men have killed gods before. Conjure visions by that if you dare."
 
[] Failure does not mean fault. It does not mean that Lorgar won't have the strength to live with the choice and learn from the experience so it's less likely to happen again. If he tests his ideals against reality and finds them wanting, then either he will eventually learn to change that reality or he will refine his ideals.
 
Incidentally the reason I am reading daemon Lorgar and not our Lorgar with the question of 'What will make you regain your self-confidence and reject Chaos' is because I respect our Lorgar. I do not respect the daemon because it's cheating, so we should cheat back by reading its mind.
 
DragonParadox said:
Incidentally the reason I am reading daemon Lorgar and not our Lorgar with the question of 'What will make you regain your self-confidence and reject Chaos' is because I respect our Lorgar. I do not respect the daemon because it's cheating, so we should cheat back by reading its mind.
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My fear is that although your approach may work, it's a bit of a wasted opportunity to guide Lorgar's development in a way we choose.

We need Lorgar to be pragmatic enough to survive in the Imperium. We want him to value the interests of his in-group over that of the out-group.

Saint Lorgar is perhaps even less suited to make the Warhammer galaxy a better place than Daemon Lorgar.
 
Honestly, ... TED may be the most important charms we get. Given their themes behind TED and his nature.
 
Alratan said:
My fear is that although your approach may work, it's a bit of a wasted opportunity to guide Lorgar's development in a way we choose.

We need Lorgar to be pragmatic enough to survive in the Imperium. We want him to value the interests of his in-group over that of the out-group.

Saint Lorgar is perhaps even less suited to make the Warhammer galaxy a better place than Daemon Lorgar.
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We can talk to Lorgar later when we do not have the Shit Stirrer Supreme next to us. It is not like he is going to lose his ability to change his mind after this.
 
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Seems pretty obvious to me, just say we get good. We choose diplomacy and win anyway, who the fuck is lorgar to dictate our action, this isn't a trolley problem, its a world we can mitigate consequences.
 
DragonParadox said:
[X] Plan By the Shadow of All Things
-[X] ANALYTICAL MODELING INTUITION (Daemon Lorgar): What answer do you think could undo the progress you have made?
-[X] Use CRACKED CELL CIRCUMVENTION to enhance the roll
-[X] Give it to him
-[X] Having said that turn to the Daemon: "Oh how clearly you claim to see. Tell me Daemon does the view ever mist around the edges, like dew on glass, does the window shake? Perhaps you think it's Essence, that power you can never touch. Maybe that's all it is, tell yourself that. Tell yourself it's not fear in the secret heart of the things you name 'God'." Step closer. "They fear us. Men have killed gods before. Conjure visions by that if you dare."

Lorgar knows himself, both versions, whatever he thinks will undo his progress likely will. Also since he seems to have so much fun offering revelations to others, lets share one of our own.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Can we pay WP too for a success??? I would prefer to add a confirmed success on this
 
Well, Analytical Modeling Intuition will be useful to resolve the third test, then.

From a philosophical perspective, one would suppose that this scenario would involve the branch of philosophy that is logic.

Now, in this case, one would think to examine it via both formal and informal logic. That is, there is the matter of both deductively valid inferences and logical truths where formal logic is concerned. For informal logic, there would be informal fallacies, critical thinking, and argumentation theory.

Hm, the question is whether the presented scenario is a formal or informal fallacy. Is the source of the error only the form of the argument, or is it also due to the content and context of the argument?

There does seem to be an informal fallacy, a false dilemma. The premise of the argument does erroneously limit the available options. This scenario would present a fallacy of bifurcation, to state it in the simplest form.

One recalls an example of a false dilemma with the simple constructive form. The first premise is that by telling the truth, one incites social tragedy for a friend. Therefore, one is immoral. The second premise is that if one lies, then one is immoral, since it is immoral to lie. The third premise is that one either tells the truth or lies. Therefore, one will be an immoral person, no matter what choice they make in this situation. It is a false dilemma, because there are other options than telling the truth or lying.
 
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