Red Rationalist
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Hills don't add any concealment, higher spotting doesn't matter there. Also, it's not like any of the enemy units could have a higher base-stealth than 4.
Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest
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oh yeah, i saw you misremembering that hills give concealment, put it in my head and never saw you correct yourself lol
Red Rationalist
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Also, this deployment was badly planned. There is no reason to put all a team solely of elves behind the hill, you only need one elven unit to scout (5+1, possible search order if you're getting suspicious of stealthy units in the forest). 2 Elven Hussars are more than enough for that. Halflings on those hills could hold out longer against fire and shoot everything moving out of the Rotholz thanks to added range. Additionally, why are we putting Hobgoblins in the front? They have the same base cohesion as elves, baring the 42nd due to unsteady. It's not likely that the front will see actual melee since we concentrated all firepower in one point, making this further unnecessary. If we didn't bind them to a front position, we could have an actual assault team in reserve for one of the flanks.
Since this plan hinges on an eventual assault and destruction of the enemy battery once they get in range, there is no reason to bind the Hobs to this position the entire time when they could form a useful part of the counteroffensive destroying infantry cover.
Since this plan hinges on an eventual assault and destruction of the enemy battery once they get in range, there is no reason to bind the Hobs to this position the entire time when they could form a useful part of the counteroffensive destroying infantry cover.
@Photomajig Is the tile northeast of the 42nd Elv a plains or hill tile. Also aren't the breastworks suppose to be protected on the sides?
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At least one elven unit is definitely important in the east, because we dont want to bind an hussar unit just to scout there instead of being able to react to enemy movement. The Hobgoblins are on front because we need the units to fill the trenches and the halflings in the west are able to stay hidden and be a big surprise for the enemy, Im also less confident in the enemy not charging us than you are.
Theyll definitely be part of our big charge, where their position in the center is benificial because they are faster to reach the enemy, but i am less confident in their ability to take part in smaller, localised charges, where their slow movement maked it difficult for them to manouvre and their concealment means that they cant rely on actually hiding anywhere
We could still change the infantry around, but what would you put into the position of the hobs instead?
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We only have a certain number of infantry. The elves go to the flanks because they absorb casualties better and because I'm not putting a Maverick on the main line where I need him to stand still. I suppose I could have swapped one of the elves on the right with one of the pathfinders on the left for range, but the left has better concealment, and 2 Elven Hussars for spotting anyway.
I had 5 infantry left for a line of 4, and the 28th are Unsteady, so they got the reserve/wing job. Main flanking forces are our reserve cavalry, with the Hobs holding still in the best cover until it's time to counterattack. I know you disagree with this deployment on principle, but rest assured, then infantry deployment was done with intentionality toward the overall goal.
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Unsteady units don't absorb cohesion damage well, so that wasn't a good plan. Also, halflings absorb ranged attacks incredibly well. I would recommend moving the 28th to the hills rather than keeping them in reserve-
Right, except it's extremely unlikely for the hobs to have anything to charge from their cover positions. The enemy has no motivation to move units into medium artillery range, so putting them off to the side (likely behind the hill with an order to hide) would be the better option for actually assaulting the enemy. This would allow a flanking manevour without advanced forewarning due to lacking detection, allowing us to swing around to the enemy western flank the turn after the hills are crossed. It's probably better for the counterassault to not place your assault group fully visibly in the centre at least 8 tiles away from where the enemy wants to place their own infantry.
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@Nerdorama The image to your plan has expired.
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Thankfully, you can still see it by looking at the image on the Daurstein Round 0 threadmark.
The main thing here is that I am not committing to holding a line on the flanks. I'm skirmishing on the flanks until I see exactly how Trotha intends to commit his forces, so the flanks get skirmishers, including commanders who arent suited to holding the line. And I am keeping an assault force concealed - the cavalry I'm holding back until I see where I need to deploy them. They'll have plenty of time to maneuver without being spotted once we know exactly how Trotha is committing his forces - and most likely so will at least one of the skirmisher forces since I don't foresee Trotha trying to use all three axes of attack at once. Again, I'm not making any assumptions here other than committing 4 inf and 3 art to holding our center strong point, and putting those under as good of cover as we can manage practically.
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Right, your plan to just use the cavalry for the attack. Is there a particular reason to not add infantry to the assault? They would be helpful for pressuring the centre, pinning units down and allowing the cavalry to hit from the side. There is no reason to assume a sole cavalry attack would be successful, you need something to distract the enemy.
Actually, you are. Every proposed position does. The assumption that skirmishers are in a useful position, the assumption that cavalry is strong enough to overwhelm enemy defences and the assumption that the horse artillery will be useful on the sides. Wouldn't it be much more founded to assume the enemy travels along the centre, given how this is the area with the least obstacles in the way? Especially for the artillery.
You mean the one below the primary objective? I was more referring to the photo where it shows where your plan to move up the units on the right, and where exactly you want to place the horse artillery.
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The criticism of the Kinzberg plans always included that the enemies traveled along the sides because the middle is too open, didn't they?
Like, if the enemy travels only along the centre we just put
The problem is that infantry is slow.
It needs to travel forward, strike the enemy and get back away from the enemy in time, without the rest of the enemy reinforcing the parts we are attacking in time
Like, if the enemy travels only along the centre we just put
The problem is that infantry is slow.
It needs to travel forward, strike the enemy and get back away from the enemy in time, without the rest of the enemy reinforcing the parts we are attacking in time
Red Rationalist
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Actually, that is also unsound planning. There is no reason for Tortha to send a skirmishing force trough the Rotholz when our main position is clearly Klinzberg. The hills wouldn't be useful an assault on Klinzberg and a cavalry charge against fortifcations isn't worth considering. Artillery forces would either expose screens or get cavalry charged. There is no reason for Trotha to send a force trough Rotholz, hence putting our only mobile artillery there is a wasted effort. Much smarter to put them in the front with cavalry, screening and withdrawing at forces along the central corridor.
It would be mathematically the best way, but neither party will have the patience to do 30 turn long optimal plays. It's theoretically beatable, but both sides would end the match of disinterest long before this is put in to practices. And this assumes the playerbase actually solely sticks to winning via long-range fire, ignoring our initial stealth advantage and heavy munition consumption.
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Okay. RR. Buddy. All of this would have been excellent critique that was worth arguing with (because, obviously, I can argue with it) during the vote. But I don't have the time or the patience to deal with you nitpicking a plan that you fundamentally disagree with in principle after the vote is already decided. It's not useful, and frankly I find it pretty disingenuous that you're ignoring the things I'm saying in order to say that my actual plan is something else. I could respond point by point and maybe if I get more free time I will. But I won't, because it literally doesn't matter now.
Instead I figure I can do something productive by either fixing my imgur account to get my proposed movement back up or actually drafting a Turn 1 plan so I'm gonna do that second thing.
Instead I figure I can do something productive by either fixing my imgur account to get my proposed movement back up or actually drafting a Turn 1 plan so I'm gonna do that second thing.
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If von Trotha sends his forces only into central the 5th can just relocate. Its a Horse ARtillery
Ok this is stupid. You critisise me for declaring stuff to be categorically bad and then say that longe range shots are nonsense when it is trivial to mathematically prove that they are worth it?
Heres a comparison of the 10th. It either shoots 3 Long range shots one with ambush and 1 medium shots or waits and fires 1 medium shot with ambush(everything after that would be identical for both plans):
AnyDice
AnyDice is an advanced dice probability calculator, available online. It is created with roleplaying games in mind.
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There is a 99,12% chance that shooting at long range will deal more damage than the absolute best outcome of medium range, where it rolls a 100.
This proposed long range bombardment deals 18,55 damage, nearly three times as much as the medium range ambush of 7,2 damage.
And keep in mind, these numbers only are correct if von Trotha does a full infantry charge, if he moves his artillery forward he is a lot slower and gives us even more chances to bombard him.
TBH if you really believe that its nonsense for the 10th to shoot at long range, where it shoots at -20 with advantage, that means you think it is nonsense for trained artillery to shoot at medium rangel, where it shoots with -20.
If the 10th shooting at long range is a waste of munition, then infantry using muskets are always a waste of ammunition, because they shoot with -20 at medium range too
Visualisation of the damage distribution:
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Red Rationalist
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I have literally offered improvements on your plan with my suggestions. Taking a forward firing position in the plain for skirmishing? Entirely possible now. Reassigning the Hobs to the flank for a stealthy assault force? Can be done. Scratching the positioning of units on the hill since there is no reason for this position to be taken AND it's vulnerable to enemy medium fire? Still possible.
I don't have the motivation to offer improvements on a plan that I consider sub-optimal before the vote, especially when I was busy arguing my case. I'm not going to be blamed for the timing of my criticism here, you had the same amount of time as I did for thinking about your plan.
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Ok, let's see this.
Again with the sole focus on damage numbers instead of thinking about what the enemy does. So, long-range shooting actively discourages opponents from coming closer since you're taking fire. People don't like marching their formations under fire. We don't want that, letting them come closer increases our chances for successful cavalry attack on them. Starting with medium fire and punishing a retreat with long-range fire is preferable, since the enemy is more likely to stay in position ("aborting a attack") rather than pull one tile back ("putting units out of harms way").
If the enemy pulls out because they are unwilling to face long-range attrition, you deal zero damage every following turn. If you want to offer some kind of argument about best tactics, you need to take the enemy reaction into account. Your mathematical argument only has merit if the enemy reaction isn't influenced by what we do, with the enemy acting as a non-responsive AI.
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If the enemy marches closer, loses 100 men to long range fire, gets cold feet and flees then I consider that a victory.
We destroy the morale of the Army of the Center, destroy Von Trothas career, we are able to attack in a day with the 6th against a throughly demoralised army and get to put the feather on our cap of winning a battle by making an enemy flee with our mere presence.
Also we get our morale back to 10 and everyone gets 2 xp which is just nifty
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[] Plan: Flank Scouting Draft
-[] Visualization
-[] 200th Hob: No Action
-[] 251st Hob: No Action
-[] 72nd Hum: Move E, E
-[] 148th Hum: Move E, E
-[] 28th Half Pfd: No Action
-[] 31st Elv Art: READY FIRE NW, NE 1400m
-[] 10th Hum Art: READY FIRE NW, NE 1400m
-[] 84th Elv Art: READY FIRE NW, NE 1400m
-[] 13th Hob Lan: No Action
-[] 55th Elv Hsr: MOVE NE
-[] 16th Half Pfd: MOVE NW
-[] 19th Half Pfd: MOVE NW, Rapid MOVE NW
-[] 341st Elv Hsr: Move NW, NW, NW, NW
-[] 350th Elv Hsr: Move NW, NW, NE
-[] 45th Elv: Move NE, NE
-[] 108th Elv Hsr: Move NW, NE, NE, NW
-[] 5th Hob HArt: Move NW, NE, E
-[] 42nd Elv: Move NE, NE
-[] HQ: No Action
Goals: Getting Elf eyes onto the side valleys, getting the 5th into position to set up and cover the right valley next turn (and also be in position to take potshots at the scrum in the center if Trotha ignores the right flank), getting skirmish infantry into position next turn. Also repositioning the 55th to a slightly more optimal position - I realize that I could have put the 13th a little further forward and still had them concealed but it's too late for that now so they get to chill in the rear. Otherwise the center sits there and maybe takes a potshot to remind them that we're here and already set up - they probably aren't going to move into range but it costs me nothing to order a ready fire that doesn't go off, so why not.
EDIT: On a reminder of the spotting mechanics, I've decided to have the infantry in front of the 84th move out of their LOS for now, to be moved back once Trotha closes. I might have the 84th SEARCH also but I don't think it can actually see any concealment, and it's not like you can HIDE and move at the same time unless you're Rapid.
-[] Visualization
-[] 200th Hob: No Action
-[] 251st Hob: No Action
-[] 72nd Hum: Move E, E
-[] 148th Hum: Move E, E
-[] 28th Half Pfd: No Action
-[] 31st Elv Art: READY FIRE NW, NE 1400m
-[] 10th Hum Art: READY FIRE NW, NE 1400m
-[] 84th Elv Art: READY FIRE NW, NE 1400m
-[] 13th Hob Lan: No Action
-[] 55th Elv Hsr: MOVE NE
-[] 16th Half Pfd: MOVE NW
-[] 19th Half Pfd: MOVE NW, Rapid MOVE NW
-[] 341st Elv Hsr: Move NW, NW, NW, NW
-[] 350th Elv Hsr: Move NW, NW, NE
-[] 45th Elv: Move NE, NE
-[] 108th Elv Hsr: Move NW, NE, NE, NW
-[] 5th Hob HArt: Move NW, NE, E
-[] 42nd Elv: Move NE, NE
-[] HQ: No Action
Goals: Getting Elf eyes onto the side valleys, getting the 5th into position to set up and cover the right valley next turn (and also be in position to take potshots at the scrum in the center if Trotha ignores the right flank), getting skirmish infantry into position next turn. Also repositioning the 55th to a slightly more optimal position - I realize that I could have put the 13th a little further forward and still had them concealed but it's too late for that now so they get to chill in the rear. Otherwise the center sits there and maybe takes a potshot to remind them that we're here and already set up - they probably aren't going to move into range but it costs me nothing to order a ready fire that doesn't go off, so why not.
EDIT: On a reminder of the spotting mechanics, I've decided to have the infantry in front of the 84th move out of their LOS for now, to be moved back once Trotha closes. I might have the 84th SEARCH also but I don't think it can actually see any concealment, and it's not like you can HIDE and move at the same time unless you're Rapid.
The vote's already closed? How are we going to change the plan that's already been executed? If you want to reposition our forces on turn 1 write a damn plan and stop calling me incompetent.
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Something I've been thinking about, do we want to move the infantry in front of the 84th to the side while noone is in range of if to get it scouting everything from a hill or do we have elves watching everywhere we need already?
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Lemme double check everyone's spotting...yeah okay, it'd probably be worth having the humans move E, E this turn and then back once they start forming up, even if that seems really counterintuitive to me from a realism standpoint.
Red Rationalist
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I'm literally offering options on how to reposition units. We have plenty of turns for that since we're waiting it out. Infantry don't have to stay in cover when the enemy is 10 turns away.
I'm a bit busy with other things right now. Stop with the indignation, I just pointed out flawed assumptions in your planning. My assumptions were far more scrutinized in the preceding planning session.
Red Rationalist
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This unrelated to the discussion of maximizing damage via artillery fire, which we we're having. Also, it would be nice if you adhered to forum rules and stopped using funny reactions for insulting people.
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