How True Faith effect the Worshipper and Object of his Or her Faith? For example does True Faith of a Buddhist provide same benefits and drawbacks of a Hindu or Christians True Faith? Hypothetically if one Have True Faith of concept of Order or human Spirit will have same miracles and powers as one who have True Faith which focused on chaos Gods?
True faith comes from the individual there is no Divinity or intervening power other than the strength of the faith of the person in that Concept in that belief. To deny the Gods even in their face to state that humanity is more than what the gods would have them be is a ideology and path worthy of true faith.

I would argue that true faith in the chaos gods is wasted. Because eventually they would break it they would treat you as a tool not lift you up they would discard you as a puppet not make you more than what you were there's a reason all the Servants of chaos eventually turn against them scheme and plot and kill to escape the clutches of the Gods. That is not to say that Servants of the gods are without power but I don't expect true faith to last among any of their number that have seen their true face.
 
How True Faith effect the Worshipper and Object of his Or her Faith? For example does True Faith of a Buddhist provide same benefits and drawbacks of a Hindu or Christian with True Faith? Hypothetically if one Have True Faith of concept of Order or human Spirit will he have the same miracles and powers as one who have True Faith which focused on chaos Gods?
Pretty much the same. It does not matter what you believe, so much as that you do. All the miracles are the same.
 
The Worshipers of Chaos and Chaos cutlts have the same problem here, that Vampires and Fomori with True Faith have in WoD.
Oh the old how do I Square my belief in a just and good god with the fact that through seemingly no Fault of my own I have been cursed to never to see the Sun again, an Accursed bloodthirsty corpse for the rest of time. Or the fact they can be hurt or possibly killed by the proximity or lesser weapons of people with True Faith like say the Sisters of Battle.
 
Pretty much the same. It does not matter what you believe, so much as that you do. All the miracles are the same.
If one start to worship human spirit as collective entity will that led to formation of Racial God embodying humanity in Warp? Particularly when Unborn Enitiy Got a perfect archcleric Like lorgar who have such strong connections to True Faith. Is it similar case like Ynnrad when presence of believers and actual arch priestess speed up its crystalization and eventual birth? After all it was same case as well in case of Slaaneesh when Eldars tried to actively manufacture a God who Embodied Their Decadence and Excess which led to catastrophic results.
 
Oh the old how do I Square my belief in a just and good god with the fact that through seemingly no Fault of my own I have been cursed to never to see the Sun again, an Accursed bloodthirsty corpse for the rest of time. Or the fact they can be hurt or possibly killed by the proximity or lesser weapons of people with True Faith like say the Sisters of Battle.
Misread your post. Sorry, please ignore it.
 
If one start to worship human spirit as collective entity will that led to formation of Racial God embodying humanity in Warp? Particularly when Unborn Enitiy Got a perfect archcleric Like lorgar who have such strong connections to True Faith. Is it similar case like Ynnrad when presence of believers and actual arch priestess speed up its crystalization and eventual birth? After all it was same case as well in case of Slaaneesh when Eldars tried to actively manufacture a God who Embodied Their Decadence and Excess which led to catastrophic results.
In Warhammer 40k God forging is an art that if you do not actively pursue it does not seemingly occur quickly. Even for a race like the Aeldari which are a species of Warp adepts who are actively trying to bring about a god of death it's taking thousands of years to do that from what I can remember and take this with the grain of salt they've been trying to make Ynnead a being that exists for the last 12,000 or so years in current lore I think it's Millennium 42 year 300 and some now and they started I think a millennia or two after the fall of the empire.

So baring someone who knows the art of God forging in the warp going out of their way to assist and spread this religion and make it so it's a coherent and strong faith that has billions upon billions of worshipers across thousands of Worlds there's almost no chance within the confines of a couple of Millennia for that to happen.

Even the Eldar when they were at the height of Empire and trillions of worshipers of excess it still took the better part of a hundred thousand years for slanesh to be born.
 
Last edited:
I completely agree with stunt-buy, but I want to greatly emphasize this part. We must hammer in Lorgar that one can have Faith without religion. Otherwise Big E will cause issues. On the other hand, I think that this interpretation is not too far from the core concept of Imperial Truth: that humanity is capable of mastering the universe and becoming the best version of itself.
Fuck that fascist shut. We need to kill him anyway.
 
I agree with most of what is in here, I do not want to be an enemy of the Golden Man if we can help it but it should be noted that history proved that the Imperial Truth was not just misguided, but possibility the most idiotic ideological decision that galaxy had seen since the Necrontyr's alliance with the C'tan.
I wonder if the Imperial truth is literally just the truth from his eyes. Big E saw the Golden Age of mankind he's also been fighting demons and star gods since prehistory. He grew up on Earth too so there's an element of yeah no nothing in the warp is a God if there is a God they are very much absent and humanity is fully capable of making Horrors beyond our own comprehension such as causal Weaponry that causes a ship to crash into itself a version of itself from the future.

If the Imperial truth says that Mankind's place is at the top of the Galaxy then it's propaganda which is ages tool of Empire if it says there are no Gods it's just true from his perspective and probably for most people's perspective because I know the chaos Gods counts as fucking devils and soul Stealers at best for most religions. If it says science and reason are the best methods of creating a powerful Empire then he saw the Golden Age of mankind with their absolutely fucking nutso weapons, planetary shipyards, in human lifetime terraforming, Gene editing that can make people biologically immortal, is he telling the truth again. This is the thing we just don't know what the Imperial truth was made of so saying it was ideologically idiotic is kind of skipping a step.

From his perspective as a insanely powerful psycher created by mankind who is capable of outright smacking demon shit why would he consider them at all divinity or even particularly important he had a sword that was just outright capable of killing demons permanently so they weren't even Immortal from his perspective they failed every possible test of divinity. So not only are they not worthy of worship they fail the most basic test of divinity can you survive me stabbing you. The only way for them to pass the Divinity test is if he passes and he doesn't consider himself a God so we're left in lurch that Logar decides to take in a completely different direction.
 
I wonder if the Imperial truth is literally just the truth from his eyes. Big E saw the Golden Age of mankind he's also been fighting demons and star gods since prehistory. He grew up on Earth too so there's an element of yeah no nothing in the warp is a God if there is a God they are very much absent and humanity is fully capable of making Horrors beyond our own comprehension such as causal Weaponry that causes a ship to crash into itself a version of itself from the future.

If the Imperial truth says that Mankind's place is at the top of the Galaxy then it's propaganda which is ages tool of Empire if it says there are no Gods it's just true from his perspective and probably for most people's perspective because I know the chaos Gods counts as fucking devils and soul Stealers at best for most religions. If it says science and reason are the best methods of creating a powerful Empire then he saw the Golden Age of mankind with their absolutely fucking nutso weapons, planetary shipyards, in human lifetime terraforming, Gene editing that can make people biologically immortal, is he telling the truth again. This is the thing we just don't know what the Imperial truth was made of so saying it was ideologically idiotic is kind of skipping a step.

From his perspective as a insanely powerful psycher created by mankind who is capable of outright smacking demon shit why would he consider them at all divinity or even particularly important he had a sword that was just outright capable of killing demons permanently so they weren't even Immortal from his perspective they failed every possible test of divinity. So not only are they not worthy of worship they fail the most basic test of divinity can you survive me stabbing you. The only way for them to pass the Divinity test is if he passes and he doesn't consider himself a God so we're left in lurch that Logar decides to take in a completely different direction.

The thing is it's not the objective truth so believing it makes Big E deluded as opposed to attempting a hopeless social experiment. The Chaos Gods are in every sense that matters gods, they are beings from an alternative dimension with the ability to confer mystical powers upon those favored by them/curse those they disfavor while also requiring worship. They are also most certainly more powerful than him, it's just reaching across the veil that limits them. If the Emperor stood before Khorne's Skull Throne the Emperor would die

As for the notion that humanity was at the top of the pile during the Golden Age... they were not, the Eldar were just too busy murder-fucking Slaanesh into existence to wipe out the newest upstart civilization and when they did humanity's stellar empire fell as an incidental effect of the Warpstorms.
 
The thing is it's not the objective truth so believing it makes Big E deluded as opposed to attempting a hopeless social experiment. The Chaos Gods are in every sense that matters gods, they are beings from an alternative dimension with the ability to confer mystical powers upon those favored by them/curse those they disfavor while also requiring worship. They are also most certainly more powerful than him, it's just reaching across the veil that limits them. If the Emperor stood before Khorne's Skull Throne the Emperor would die

As for the notion that humanity was at the top of the pile during the Golden Age... they were not, the Eldar were just too busy murder-fucking Slaanesh into existence to wipe out the newest upstart civilization and when they did humanity's stellar empire fell as an incidental effect of the Warpstorms.
There's the thing though if it's from his perspective he can also do all of those things he just doesn't exist in a alternate dimension. Just a fragment of him with his son (Roboute Guilliman) is enough to burn Nurgle's Garden in front of nurgle. The Emperor if we believe him when he says that he is a man a insanely powerful psycher is capable of all of the Feats that the chaos gods are from being empowered by worship to granting favors and curses and granting Boons and blessings.

The fact they have to reach across at all could disqualify them from the title of divinity in his mind. The fact he holds the title Anathema seems to really suggest that the power of the emperor is not to be undermined as far as direct confrontation between his light and the light of the Gods is concerned.

The Eldar are weird point because yeah you are almost certainly correct from their prowess or possible Weaponry perspective but from his perspective they were never that impressive because they started their decline 50,000 or so years before Humanity ever reached the Stars. The most impressive thing he would have seen about them is their capacity to be tortured and still like it, I think the craft world existed so they would have been pretty impressive and maybe the fact they had dinosaurs on those weird little planets that the exudites had but that's about it as far as being impressive in any way that the Eldar Empire had at the end there other than you know causing a Galaxy hole to appear causing an AI Rebellion because demons and Hollow shells make great friends and Horrors nearly beyond comprehension.

It wasn't just the warp storms that caused the death of the Human Federation it was the fact that the warp storms paired with a robot apocalypse and psychers appearing and demons also appearing which you know you can say that's incidental but that seems like a lot of shit for any Empire to try and deal with at once.

So Tldr. I wouldn't call my fat violent nitwit neighbor Terrence a god anymore than I would call kind of insane planner cubicle neighbor Aaron a god. You can say he has an arbitrary definition of God but that's kind of obvious because all definitions of God are arbitrary. In the end he hits all of the same criteria as the chaos gods do and if he doesn't consider himself a God then why would he consider them ones either. Never mind the fact that fucking Khorne and Slannesh are younger than he is.
 
[X] Stunt Buy Bestowal Of Accursed Fortune and grant Lorgar Background dots in "True Faith". (Lorgar Unlocks: Miracles but this will start Lorgar on Religion.)
 
There's the thing though if it's from his perspective he can also do all of those things he just doesn't exist in a alternate dimension. Just a fragment of him with his son (Roboute Guilliman) is enough to burn Nurgle's Garden in front of nurgle. The Emperor if we believe him when he says that he is a man a insanely powerful psycher is capable of all of the Feats that the chaos gods are from being empowered by worship to granting favors and curses and granting Boons and blessings.

The fact they have to reach across at all could disqualify them from the title of divinity in his mind. The fact he holds the title Anathema seems to really suggest that the power of the emperor is not to be undermined as far as direct confrontation between his light and the light of the Gods is concerned.

The Eldar are weird point because yeah you are almost certainly correct from their prowess or possible Weaponry perspective but from his perspective they were never that impressive because they started their decline 50,000 or so years before Humanity ever reached the Stars. The most impressive thing he would have seen about them is their capacity to be tortured and still like it, I think the craft world existed so they would have been pretty impressive and maybe the fact they had dinosaurs on those weird little planets that the exudites had but that's about it as far as being impressive in any way that the Eldar Empire had at the end there other than you know causing a Galaxy hole to appear causing an AI Rebellion because demons and Hollow shells make great friends and Horrors nearly beyond comprehension.

It wasn't just the warp storms that caused the death of the Human Federation it was the fact that the warp storms paired with a robot apocalypse and psychers appearing and demons also appearing which you know you can say that's incidental but that seems like a lot of shit for any Empire to try and deal with at once.

So Tldr. I wouldn't call my fat violent nitwit neighbor Terrence a god anymore than I would call kind of insane planner cubicle neighbor Aaron a god. You can say he has an arbitrary definition of God but that's kind of obvious because all definitions of God are arbitrary. In the end he hits all of the same criteria as the chaos gods do and if he doesn't consider himself a God then why would he consider them ones either. Never mind the fact that fucking Khorne and Slannesh are younger than he is.

Terrance does not live in a different dimension and grant power for worship though . If the Emperor could exist in the warp as much as in reality using himself as the template of Not-A-God he might have a point. Divine does not mean all powerful, indeed divine does not even mean powerful, there have been religions on earth that held that each blade of grass had its own spirit, it is own god that needed respect and the fact that world spirits are a thing makes them factually true in universe as well.

As for the Eldar, to put this into perspective, they had wish machines. Anything they could imagine the Eldar could manifest for a span six hundred times the length of Homo Sapiens' existence. The idea that humanity inherently deserves the galaxy is kind of absurdly arrogant compared to that especially since the enemies of the Eldar, the C'tan and the necrons are still out there
 
[X] Stunt Buy Bestowal Of Accursed Fortune and grant Lorgar Background dots in "True Faith". (Lorgar Unlocks: Miracles but this will start Lorgar on Religion.)

We don't want to Limit his personal development, after all.
 
Terrance does not live in a different dimension and grant power for worship though . If the Emperor could exist in the warp as much as in reality using himself as the template of Not-A-God he might have a point. Divine does not mean all powerful, indeed divine does not even mean powerful, there have been religions on earth that held that each blade of grass had its own spirit, it is own god that needed respect and the fact that world spirits are a thing makes them factually true in universe as well.

As for the Eldar, to put this into perspective, they had wish machines. Anything they could imagine the Eldar could manifest for a span six hundred times the length of Homo Sapiens' existence. The idea that humanity inherently deserves the galaxy is kind of absurdly arrogant compared to that especially since the enemies of the Eldar, the C'tan and the necrons are still out there
There's a thing though chaos gods are not those type of deities because Khorne can claim to be the spirit of bloodshed but the Emperors been around killing people in glorious melee combat longer than Khorne has existed. The chaos gods are false in most ways they can't claim to be the spirits of change, hope, magic, Bloodshed, violence, Decay nature because we know they are explicitly killing or holding (Isha) the actual spirits of those things. They also make claims of being all powerful being the masters of Fate being in the actual things that control the universe and all of those are also false.

So the chaos Gods aren't World Spirits, they aren't actually the spirits of Concepts. They are parasites essentially if you were the emperor you would see them that way because you know bloodshed existed well before Khorne ever showed up on the scene you knew Excess was a thing well before the Prince of Pleasure ever showed up you knew Hope was a thing before the mollusk ever showed up you also probably knew Human and Eldar gods that definitely were around and were actual spirits of those things before the chaos gods showed up.

The fact of the matter is the Emperor because of his position in the setting we don't know what he knows but we do know from information given to us by outside views that the Sea of souls did not contain the chaos Gods initially and this can be confirmed via both text and research from the old ones which he possibly could have possessed because he was building a webway and we know the Eldar didn't make their own. He's not old enough to remember Asuryan's edict that separates Divinity from Eldar but he definitely had a 15,000 year overlap in time in humanity space exploration age to learn about such things. So it's literally impossible to know what he possibly knows.

So from his perspective we know that they are not immortal they are not the spirits of things or concepts they are not necessary for those Concepts to exist they are not personifications of Concepts they aren't World spirits and they consume The Souls of beings in the warp so they fit the criteria of demon or otherworldly parasite at best but fail to meet any possible description of divinity. In all seriousness if you believe in any type of God or gods animistic or otherwise you should not think the chaos gods are deities. They profane corrupt and destroy everything they come in contact with they lie and seduce and manipulate at every opportunity they cheat with their word and deed. Even under the loosest definition of divinity they are not divine.

The idea that Humanity inherently deserves the Galaxy is a bit of propaganda that I feel gets glanced over because it's very obviously a lie. He's building a webway gate on Terra. The goal is to unite Humanity. It's more likely that he actually thought this galaxy is fucked and if I don't do something humanity is also going down with the ship so he spits that bit of propaganda to get every human-aligned faction under control then he starts building his web way gate and then because Humanity at the height of the age of Technology outright had technology capable of moving stars and planets it's probably make webway, take humanity and all its worlds into webway, say goodbye to fucked galaxy.

Sorry this is insanely long but I will close it out like this if you were a peer of these beings and you saw them come into existence I imagine it's really difficult to think them at all Divine even if from a normal human perspective they would be. To you and your ancient powerful gaze they are not amazingly or overwhelmingly powerful they are not the concept that they represent they aren't actually the spirits of those things and they are seemingly pathological Liars scrapping each other endlessly for a game. I imagine it's rather difficult to see anything other than malfeasant warp energy when he looks at them.
 
Last edited:
[X] Stunt Buy Bestowal Of Accursed Fortune and grant Lorgar Background dots in "True Faith". (Lorgar Unlocks: Miracles but this will start Lorgar on Religion.)
 
There's a thing though chaos gods are not those type of deities because Khorne can claim to be the spirit of bloodshed but the Emperors been around killing people in glorious melee combat longer than Khorne has existed. The chaos gods are false in most ways they can't claim to be the spirits of change, hope, magic, Bloodshed, violence, Decay nature because we know they are explicitly killing or holding (Isha) the actual spirits of those things. They also make claims of being all powerful being the masters of Fate being in the actual things that control the universe and all of those are also false.

So the chaos Gods aren't World Spirits, they aren't actually the spirits of Concepts. They are parasites essentially if you were the emperor you would see them that way because you know bloodshed existed well before Khorne ever showed up on the scene you knew Excess was a thing well before the Prince of Pleasure ever showed up you knew Hope was a thing before the mollusk ever showed up you also probably knew Human and Eldar gods that definitely were around and were actual spirits of those things before the chaos gods showed up.

The fact of the matter is the Emperor because of his position in the setting we don't know what he knows but we do know from information given to us by outside views that the Sea of souls did not contain the chaos Gods initially and this can be confirmed via both text and research from the old ones which he possibly could have possessed because he was building a webway and we know the Eldar didn't make their own. He's not old enough to remember Asuryan's edict that separates Divinity from Eldar but he definitely had a 15,000 year overlap in time in humanity space exploration age to learn about such things. So it's literally impossible to know what he possibly knows.

So from his perspective we know that they are not immortal they are not the spirits of things or concepts they are not necessary for those Concepts to exist they are not personifications of Concepts they aren't World spirits and they consume The Souls of beings in the warp so they fit the criteria of demon or otherworldly parasite at best but fail to meet any possible description of divinity. In all seriousness if you believe in any type of God or gods animistic or otherwise you should not think the chaos gods are deities. They profane corrupt and destroy everything they come in contact with they lie and seduce and manipulate at every opportunity they cheat with their word and deed. Even under the loosest definition of divinity they are not divine.

The idea that Humanity inherently deserves the Galaxy is a bit of propaganda that I feel gets glanced over because it's very obviously a lie. He's building a webway gate on Terra. The goal is to unite Humanity. It's more likely that he actually thought this galaxy is fucked and if I don't do something humanity is also going down with the ship so he spits that bit of propaganda to get every human-aligned faction under control then he starts building his web way gate and then because Humanity at the height of the age of Technology outright had technology capable of moving stars and planets it's probably make webway, take humanity and all its worlds into webway, say goodbye to fucked galaxy.

Sorry this is insanely long but I will close it out like this if you were a peer of these beings and you saw them come into existence I imagine it's really difficult to think them at all Divine even if from a normal human perspective they would be. To you and your ancient powerful gaze they are not amazingly or overwhelmingly powerful they are not the concept that they represent they aren't actually the spirits of those things and they are seemingly pathological Liars scrapping each other endlessly for a game. I imagine it's rather difficult to see anything other than malfeasant warp energy when he looks at them.

The Emperor did not witness the Chaos Gods being born. Khorne at least was formed in the Aftermath of the War on Heaven which makes him orders of magnitude that the earliest possible age for the Emperor, but that is kind of besides the point. Maybe it's because this is an Exalted cross and Exalted is a setting where most gods get beaten up on the regular by a bunch of dragonblooded monks, but I feel this needs saying again: Divine does not mean superior. Imagine if someone denied the existence and fundamental ability of sharks to eat people just because they are stronger than a shark in the water. It does not make everyone else safer from the sharks does it?

Secondly and I think very importantly because this is an Exalted cross, evil gods are a thing. Indeed in Exalted arguably reality was made by evil gods. Returning to Earth plenty of religions had conceptions of evil gods over the centuries. The Ancient Egyptians did not pray to Apep, but they did have evokations to ward the thing off and if, as in 40K, the evil gods are real it is all the more important that one aknowledges what they are so as to better fight them.

What the Emperor does in 30K is the equivalent of the Exalted starting the Primordial War by denying that the Primordials are powerful or that they made Creation and the species of mortals upon it. Being an anti-theist (for certain gods) in 40K is sensible just as it was in pre-First Age Creation, being an atheist is blinding one's self.
 
Last edited:
[X] Stunt Buy Bestowal Of Accursed Fortune and grant Lorgar Background dots in "True Faith". (Lorgar Unlocks: Miracles but this will start Lorgar on Religion.)
 
The Emperor did not witness the Chaos Gods being born. Khorne at least was formed in the Aftermath of the War on Heaven which makes him orders of magnitude that the earliest possible age for the Emperor, but that is kind of besides the point. Maybe it's because this is an Exalted cross and Exalted is a setting where most gods get beaten up on the regular by a bunch of dragonblooded monks, but I feel this needs saying again: Divine does not mean superior. Imagine if someone denied the existence and fundamental ability of sharks to eat people just because they are stronger than a shark in the water. It does not make everyone else safer from the sharks does it?

Secondly and I think very importantly because this is anEexalted cross, evil gods are a thing. Indeed in Exalted arguably reality was made by evil gods. Returning to Earth plenty of religions had conceptions of evil gods over the centuries. The Ancient Egyptians did not pray to Apep, but they did have evokations to ward the thing off and if, as in 40K, the evil gods are real it is all the more important that one aknowledges what they are so as to better fight them.

What the Emperor does in 30K is the equivalent of the Exalted starting the Primordial War by denying that the Primordials are powerful or that they made Creation and the species of mortals upon it. Being an anti-theist (for certain gods) in 40K is sensible just as it was in pre-First Age Creation, being an atheist is blinding one's self.
All of the chaos in the warp is from the war in heaven the Chaos Gods as entities are new literally. The Codex now say that they started manifesting after the war but only really crossed the threshold into being you know the big brass guy with armor and an identity and a name in the late Middle Ages and he was the first one. Every single one of the chaos Gods can make a claim at being millions of years old but they have only had a distinct identity at a stretch for the last 40,500 some years now in canon. Every single one of the four are younger than the emperor in varying degrees Khorne the actual entity not the blood red puddle of warp that would become him is at least nine and a half thousand years younger than the emperor we never get dates for the other ones except the prince of excess who is 30,000 years younger than the emperor is.

There is a difference between being an evil God and not being a god the chaos gods are not Divinity in any way. Apophis is Isfet the very embodiment of destructive chaos, Enemy of Ra and Ma'at.

The Imperial truth does not deny that there are phenomena outside of explanation but it says those things are just not understood yet. It denies them the name deity, demon, sorcery, Supernatural because that gives a power over anyone who acknowledges those things. In this he's actually completely correct if the old ones creation of both the web way the Orcs And The Eldar and God knows how many other species that also had special warp features included are concerned obviously there was a way to study and use that shit repeatedly and seemingly Without End.

Now I will admit because we don't know what's in the Imperial truth other than the fact that denies Supernatural by saying it's just not explained yet we could say that he should have put more in on fighting warp phenomenon and if he was going to go down this route or something along that line but he's not wrong to deny them this fake name that they have. Nor does it deny the fact those things are dangerous.
 
The thing is it's not the objective truth so believing it makes Big E deluded as opposed to attempting a hopeless social experiment. The Chaos Gods are in every sense that matters gods, they are beings from an alternative dimension with the ability to confer mystical powers upon those favored by them/curse those they disfavor while also requiring worship. They are also most certainly more powerful than him, it's just reaching across the veil that limits them. If the Emperor stood before Khorne's Skull Throne the Emperor would die
They are powerful now to be sure but that is is it. The emperor is older then the chaos gods even having sentient, and prior to the collapse of the eldar they where getting their shit kicked by the eldar gods whenever they try to grow beyond minor power. Just because they are the top powers of the warp now, does not mean they cannot be destroyed lessened etc.
 
Last edited:
All of the chaos in the warp is from the war in heaven the Chaos Gods as entities are new literally. The Codex now say that they started manifesting after the war but only really crossed the threshold into being you know the big brass guy with armor and an identity and a name in the late Middle Ages and he was the first one. Every single one of the chaos Gods can make a claim at being millions of years old but they have only had a distinct identity at a stretch for the last 40,500 some years now in canon. Every single one of the four are younger than the emperor in varying degrees Khorne the actual entity not the blood red puddle of warp that would become him is at least nine and a half thousand years younger than the emperor we never get dates for the other ones except the prince of excess who is 30,000 years younger than the emperor is.

There is a difference between being an evil God and not being a god the chaos gods are not Divinity in any way. Apophis is Isfet the very embodiment of destructive chaos, Enemy of Ra and Ma'at.

The Imperial truth does not deny that there are phenomena outside of explanation but it says those things are just not understood yet. It denies them the name deity, demon, sorcery, Supernatural because that gives a power over anyone who acknowledges those things. In this he's actually completely correct if the old ones creation of both the web way the Orcs And The Eldar and God knows how many other species that also had special warp features included are concerned obviously there was a way to study and use that shit repeatedly and seemingly Without End.

Now I will admit because we don't know what's in the Imperial truth other than the fact that denies Supernatural by saying it's just not explained yet we could say that he should have put more in on fighting warp phenomenon and if he was going to go down this route or something along that line but he's not wrong to deny them this fake name that they have. Nor does it deny the fact those things are dangerous.

The Imperial Truth denies the sapeince of warp entities, their ability to strike bargains with material beings and their desire for worship, i.e. the three things that can best be summarized as 'this is a malevolent god'. Describing it that way would make fighting the things easier, we know this because that's what the later Imperium did and it worked. There is no way something like the Warrior Lodges could have infiltrated later chapters because those needs of the marines would have been filled by chaplains (Sanguinary priests, Rune Priests what have you). What the Imperial truth did was make 'superstition', a thing which naturally crops up in all cultures, much less ones as intimate with dealing and facing death as the Marines the equivalent of smoking behind the shed, since unlike breaking the other rules it did not seem to hurt anyone, only the Emperor knows Cthulhu lives behind that shed. Whether or not he thinks he can punch Cthulhu or if he thinks Cthulhu is overhyped is immaterial to the very real danger he put the Legions and indeed all of the IoM in my not signposting it.
 
Last edited:
Warp entities by definition are none sapience. They are highly complex robots following their programming. They cannot chose to change or alter their behavior, even when it would benefit them. Tzeentch could make a plan that would kill the other warp powers and rule uncontested forever more, but Tzeench cannot help but also make plans to kill itself. Only the fact Tzeentch makes as many plans that would empower itself, as those that would end itself keeps it going. If Tzeentch had true sapience it could stop it self sabotage. But warp creatues cannot change on their own, they can only be changed.

Same like Khorne hatred of psychers. Their is no reason for it, save that random chance landed on hate psychers, for Khorne. Anything more then blasting raw warp energy is bad as far a Khorne is concerned, despite the fact the skill and prowess to use spells and other advanced powers should be exalted by Khorne love of battlefield prowess, it not.
 
The Imperial Truth denies the sapeince of warp entities, their ability to strike bargains with material beings and their desire for worship, i.e. the three things that can best be summarized as 'this is a malevolent god'. Describing it that way would make fighting the things easier, we know this because that's what the later Imperium did and it worked. There is no way something like the Warrior Lodges could have infiltrated later chapters because those needs of the marines would have been filled by chaplains (Sanguinary priests, Rune Priests what have you). What the Imperial truth did was make 'superstition', a thing which naturally crops up in all cultures, much less ones as intimate with dealing and facing death as the Marines the equivalent of smoking behind the shed, since unlike breaking the other rules it did not seem to hurt anyone, only the Emperor knows Cthulhu lives behind that shed. Whether or not he thinks he can punch Cthulhu or if he thinks Cthulhu is overhyped is immaterial to the very real danger he put the Legions and indeed all of the IoM in my not signposting it.
No it does not it cast them as essentially interdimensional Zenos. Explicitly naming them as a superstitious phenomenon that might be considered as demons. I'm going to need more context on the warrior lodges from what I remember they were essentially a inter chapter enter company groups within armies of astartes they served as vectors of seditious and generally not approved of public talk like say Lorgar's Lectitio Divinitatus but they weren't about chaos in any way they just had a lot of connections to people who would turn traitor and because they had loyalty to them would also turn traitor with them.

You describing smoking Club is how I remember them they served as a vector for Traitors because they were essentially groups of people that grew loyal to each other and then when some of them went traitor possibly because of chaos influence, possibly because they were word bearers, possibly both people in those Warrior lodges went with them not because they were corrupted or made a deal but because they decided to.
 
Warp entities by definition are none sapience. They are highly complex robots following their programming. They cannot chose to change or alter their behavior, even when it would benefit them. Tzeentch could make a plan that would kill the other warp powers and rule uncontested forever more, but Tzeench cannot help but also make plans to kill itself. Only the fact Tzeentch makes as many plans that would empower itself, as those that would end itself keeps it going. If Tzeentch had true sapience it could stop it self sabotage. But warp creatues cannot change on their own, they can only be changed.

Same like Khorne hatred of psychers. Their is no reason for it, save that random chance landed on hate psychers, for Khorne. Anything more then blasting raw warp energy is bad as far a Khorne is concerned, despite the fact the skill and prowess to use spells and other advanced powers should be exalted by Khorne love of battlefield prowess, it not.
Not to mention the fucking god of blood uses a fuck ton of actual straight up magic himself such as tides of blood raining from the fucking sky and Chariots of Fire riding down from the heavens and other examples of chains made out of the blood of entire population of the planets he should be completely fine with psychers as a concept he's not though.
 
No it does not it cast them as essentially interdimensional Zenos. Explicitly naming them as a superstitious phenomenon that might be considered as demons. I'm going to need more context on the warrior lodges from what I remember they were essentially a inter chapter enter company groups within armies of astartes they served as vectors of seditious and generally not approved of public talk like say Lorgar's Lectitio Divinitatus but they weren't about chaos in any way they just had a lot of connections to people who would turn traitor and because they had loyalty to them would also turn traitor with them.

You describing smoking Club is how I remember them they served as a vector for Traitors because they were essentially groups of people that grew loyal to each other and then when some of them went traitor possibly because of chaos influence, possibly because they were word bearers, possibly both people in those Warrior lodges went with them not because they were corrupted or made a deal but because they decided to.

The Warrior Lodges were vectors of Chaos Corruption from the start planned by Erebus and Kor Pheron, they were also something no one loyal was looking at because you can't look for cults of evil gods if you think gods are not real and all cultists are deluded primitives just waiting to be embraced into the Imperial truth. The Imperial Truth made the Imperium underestimate the enemy which is in general more dangerous than overestimating them.

Anyway, it will be a while before we can test this in the thread so how about we table this for now?
 
Back
Top