Not quite. As an Infernal you have a gigantic past life rating and have been drawing on it. I have reworked it a but but sufficient to say, between Past lives and Primordial Fetch death, the demons will have the dots, even if you do not.
So they could still help us train Occult and the Demons and Malfeas specialties? If so, I'm confused why you said they didn't know anything we don't.
It is only the Sorcery stuff except Workings that you cannot rely on past lives, due reasons I can't go into.
Well can we self study? We've got primordial insight into Sorcery and someone invented the spells and Paths for the first time.
So if you want to make Moonsilver or Warstriders or anything else?
Doesn't creating Moonsilver require divine intervention? Stabilizing Moonsilver is a fairly basic thaumaturgic rite, but the raw form requires Luna to either expend essence or convert the Ambrosia she gains from Worship. Or a decently high level Jadeborn charm, which is tapping into the powers of Auto-kun. Pretty much the only Magical Material that doesn't require either divine intervention or a naturally occurring deposit is Orichalcum, and even that's questionable if non-god sunlight would work.

Well, that or Principle Invoking Onslaught or Constructive Convergence of Principles.
 
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So they could still help us train Occult and the Demons and Malfeas specialties? If so, I'm confused why you said they didn't know anything we don't.

Well can we self study? We've got primordial insight into Sorcery and someone invented the spells and Paths for the first time.

Doesn't creating Moonsilver require divine intervention? Stabilizing Moonsilver is a fairly basic thaumaturgic rite, but the raw form requires Luna to either expend essence or convert the Ambrosia she gains from Worship. Or a decently high level Jadeborn charm, which is tapping into the powers of Auto-kun. Pretty much the only Magical Material that doesn't require either divine intervention or a naturally occurring deposit is Orichalcum, and even that's questionable if non-god sunlight would work.
That's if they're creating it from Ambrosia not if it's found in the wild in places of liminal variety. All forms of magical material even star metal doesn't require outright divine intervention unless it's forged from Ambrosia.
 
That's if they're creating it from Ambrosia not if it's found in the wild in places of liminal variety. All forms of magical material even star metal doesn't require outright divine intervention unless it's forged from Ambrosia.
Nope. Technically Starmetal only forms from broken destinies and dead gods, and without the Loom of Fate specifically I'm not sure if the first option counts, raw Moonsilver is specifically the residue from Luna smiting Wyld incursions. Soulsteel requires access to the Underworld to get the ore you alloy the Souls with (though if Eternals is canon White Soulsteel can be made from just ghosts), Jade forms in natural deposits which are implied to be the result of the Pillars/Dragons. Adamant isn't known to naturally occur outside the Firmament or Autochthon. Pretty much only Orichalcum can be canonically created by anyone other than Gods and Primordials out of mundane material, and even that involves using sunlight in a universe where the sun is a god, so probably still involves drawing on the Unconquered Sun's power.
 
Nope. Technically Starmetal only forms from broken destinies and dead gods, and without the Loom of Fate specifically I'm not sure if the first option counts, raw Moonsilver is specifically the residue from Luna smiting Wyld incursions. Soulsteel requires access to the Underworld to get the ore you alloy the Souls with (though if Eternals is canon White Soulsteel can be made from just ghosts), Jade forms in natural deposits which are implied to be the result of the Pillars/Dragons. Adamant isn't known to naturally occur outside the Firmament or Autochthon. Pretty much only Orichalcum can be canonically created by anyone other than Gods and Primordials out of mundane material, and even that involves using sunlight in a universe where the sun is a god, so probably still involves drawing on the Unconquered Sun's power.
My bad I should have said outright divine intervention to forge. it's not divine intervention for Luna to have smited a wyld incursion 10 Millennia ago especially when she has been doing that for the last forever nor is the working of the Loom of Fate especially when it's mostly worked via autonomous spiders and the chosen divine intervention. Soulsteel can be considered kind of an inverse divine intervention because you have to steal the parts of broken God bodies to make it. Adamant is weird because well it's acknowledged as a material of magical Providence but it's also not acknowledged as a major magical material so it never got any detail on where it could or possibly should be found other than the primordial it's most linked to and his creations which seems to suggest it's not a natural occurring phenomenon but we know there are actual adamant things in creation that aren't made by Auto so yeah.
 
it's not divine intervention for Luna to have smited a wyld incursion 10 Millennia ago especially when she has been doing that for the last forever
I mean, it is in the sense that it required Luna to be doing stuff in the area, which I think we can relatively safely assume she hasn't been here. Sure, we don't need Luna to directly sign off on each creation of Moonsilver, but (without specific charms like Principle Invoking Onslaught and it's descendants) we won't be making any without finding a deposit of raw Moonsilver, which was my initial confusion.
nor is the working of the Loom of Fate especially when it's mostly worked via autonomous spiders and the chosen divine intervention
All those spiders are gods and the Loom was a creation of the Primordials and maintains its authority by the mandate of the Maidens.
Adamant is weird because well it's acknowledged as a material of magical Providence but it's also not acknowledged as a major magical material so it never got any detail on where it could or possibly should be found other than the primordial it's most linked to and his creations which seems to suggest it's not a natural occurring phenomenon but we know there are actual adamant things in creation that aren't made by Auto so yeah.
The sky in Creation is a massive dome of Adamant. Sometimes pieces fall or powerful gods or Exalted go up there to harvest from it.
 
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So they could still help us train Occult and the Demons and Malfeas specialties? If so, I'm confused why you said they didn't know anything we don't.
Your Occult rating is maxed. So they can't really teach you anything. Speciality dots are also not a thing in this System.

The knowledge they have is unconcious. They are tools and not characters. They know how to do but not why to do.

If you want to know more about Creation? Entirely possible.

Want to reinvent Sorecry Paths? Also possible.

But both are grand projects. The Work that takes years and it would be much MUCH easier to get a tutor.

As for Moonsilver and stuff, keep in mind that ghd Primordials Literally made the gods. So making oricalcum or moonsilver with Workings is possible.
 
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Now that I am awake let me give a more detailed response.

What are abilities? They are no so much knowledge but your skill in a certain action. It can include information but what you know is certainly different from what you can do. Take Sorcery for Example. Normally, you would need to purchase Path Dots like a Mortal. But you are not Mortal. You are Exalted, and an Infernal at that. So you can more than get away with Sagacity being the load bearer here.

The same applies to driving a bus or a plane. A high rating in Ride may allow you to roll well but unless you know HOW to ride a plane, you would not be able to roll at all. OFC, as an Exalted, you can roll with a Penalty in some cases, but impossible rolls are still impossible.

So when MAKING a Demon, they may have the raw ability to do so by Drawing upon Primordial Essence and your Past lives but that does not mean they have knowledge, just the ability.

Now what is Past life? It is your Previous incarnations, a conglomeration of their memories, that has condensed into a singularity of gibberish and confusing mish mash of thoughts. One moment, you may be walking down the halls of the heavens, the next minute, you are fighthing in the Primordial War, then you are being killed by your Loyal Dragonblooded troops at Mount Meru.

There is no organization. You literally roll to pull useful information from it. It is not a neatly organized Library where you can go to the index and know the bookshelf where the book you want is. Nor is it like google. Each page of the book is stored somewhere in the library. Not the bookshelves but the library, even the restrooms. Heck, sometimes entire pages have been torn into tiny pieces and hidden.

So now lets look at what Sorcery is. It is divided into Workings and Paths. Here is what the charm says.
By the power of the Primordials, Creation came into existence and elements, deities and even life upon it. Sorcery is this power, filtered down through fractured glimpses of understanding that cannot begin to describe the intricate elegance of the universe. To be a sorcerer is to be mad with jagged shards of cosmic awareness and with will and might enough to impose that madness on the world.
Highlighted portions are the relevant part. Essentially, you have glimpsed the whole picture but you only have a few of the pieces and have to recreate it from something you say in a half remembered dream. Thus, you can only recreate a part of the picture and need to assemble the other pieces to complete the whole.

Primordial Initiation + Past lives + Defiler gives you a MASSIVE heads up. You do not need to purchase Rituals for example. You get them for free, once you have been initiated into a Sorcery. But that does not allow you to skip everything. You still need to put the Work in.

Workings are where the meat of Sorcery lie. They are Permanent effects upon reality. Where you can do anything from move rocks to rewrite the laws of Reality. This is what the Primordials used to make creation, the gods and many other things. They did not cast "Create Creation" but performed a Sorcerous Ritual to do it.

Now why do you need a Tutor? The answer is that the Primordials had essentially infinite resources and time. When making creation, it was in an era where time did not exist and they had infinite resource of the Wyld, both of which you do not have access to. So if you want to try and touch upon stuff that took Multiple Primordials an infinite amount of tries and resources to do? Expect to put the work in. This also applies to the Solars during their Rule.

Now, there are rules, limits etc. But it is possible, maybe not practical, but possible to recreate things from first principles, but you are once again taking about things that took multiple people multiple generations to do.

Hope this helps.
 
As for Moonsilver and stuff, keep in mind that ghd Primordials Literally made the gods. So making oricalcum or moonsilver with Workings is possible.
While it's true that Sorcery is based on the Primordials, it's explicitly a pretty watered down version, especially since we only have access to the Terrestrial Circle right now. We have direct access to the actual charms of the Yozi and we don't start being able to turn shit into Magical Materials until Essence 3. Making Magical Materials is treated as a big deal in setting. Though if you did want to have Sorcery be able to do it, the Yozi Charms useful for creating magical materials being E3 would match up with it being a Celestial Circle Ambition.
But both are grand projects. The Work that takes years and it would be much MUCH easier to get a tutor.
It seems like this isn't the case, considering that the only people who know Sorcery are Spirits and Daemons. World Spirits (and their servants) are really really rare and we've already tapped the local supply and I don't think we know how to summon Daemons, though if we can, that opens up questions of if we should. Though even if we shouldn't actually do it, it would definitely be easier.
When making creation, it was in an era where time did not exist and they had infinite resource of the Wyld, both of which you do not have access to.
To be fair, it's not that hard to access the Warp, which is basically indistinguishable from the Wyld in terms of infinite resources. Surviving in the Warp (much less reliably engaging in its time fuckery aspects) is, admittedly, another question. I'm down for inventing sorcery from first principles being impractical though, we are only E1 and I was more curious than presenting it as an action option.

As an aside, would Essence Dissecting Stare let us see into the nearby warp or would grabbing Ephemera for its veil piercing ability be worthwhile?
 
Personally I despise the sorcery working system. It basically says never take crafting, sorcery can do the same but better since an artifact be it a weapon, or a magical dam can be destroyed, while the only counter to a sorcery working is a counter working. So spend any time making a weapon or armor or a warstriders is time and effort wasted a working can make you hit hard, take less damage, and be a giant robot, that can never be undone. It basically the magictech element of exalted and completely makes it irrelevant.
 
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Personally I despise the sorcery working system. It basically says never take crafting, sorcery can do the same but better since an artifact be it a weapon, or a magical dam can be destroyed, while the only counter to a sorcery working is a counter working. So spend any making a weapon or armor or a warstriders is time and effort wasted a working can make you hit hard, take less damage, and be a giant robot, that can never be undone.
On a few things, I am using Homebrew so Workings are a bit different. Here is the original draft on what I used in my Previous quest.

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Infernal Resurgence (Worm/Exalted) Crossover

Ancient Sorcery The forgotten Primordials built the Universe from chaos. By the power of the forgotten Primordials, the World came into existence and everything within it. Ancient Sorcery is this power, filtered down through fractured glimpses of understanding that cannot begin to describe the...

This only applies for Workings though so ignore the spell section. The part about Reagents do apply. So in this system, Workings CAN be countered unlike in Canon where it can only be weakened.

The second thing is, I never said you can do it now, you can do it easily, just that you can do it. So if I implied that, then apologies.

Also note that Essence ratings only go up to 5 not 10, so I correspondingly also cut Essence requirements, rounded up. But Sorcerous Workings and 1st, 2nd and 3rd Circle Workings are not really purchased. You have them or do not. It is then up to you to try and pull it off.

With regards to the Paths, that is a "30k" thing as in Creation there is Spells and not paths. I would say more but spoilers. It is also why Sorcery paths are so risky to mortals and why they do not have access to Workings baring VERY few exceptions, again spoilers. But that is also the reason why you unlock Paths by getting a tutor. You are using Exalted Sorcery as a base for Paths while the Mortals and others use the Warp as a Base.

The last part is also technically a spoiler but once you start training people, this will become obvious.
 
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You are using Exalted Sorcery as a base for Paths while the Mortals and others use the Warp as a Base.
Is that going to be a problem with Great Rituals?

As an aside, can we reinvent Thaumaturgy from first principles? The 2e kind, not the one shot 3e kind.
This only applies for Workings though so ignore the spell section. The part about Reagents do apply. So in this system, Workings CAN be countered unlike in Canon where it can only be weakened.
Also, traditionally Attuned Artifacts are the next best thing to indestructible, so they're not really much easier to destroy than a Sorcerous Working anyway.
 
As an aside, would Essence Dissecting Stare let us see into the nearby warp or would grabbing Ephemera for its veil piercing ability be worthwhile?
Essence Dissecting Stare allows you to see Warp and other magic stuff in real space and not into the Warp per say, just the things that are in front of you.

Ephemera? The difficulty is less learning it and more finding someone to teach it to you or making it up from scratch. Due to lack of really friendly warp spirits, it is hard for some one to teach it to you. The beings that can do so can be counted in one heand, especially so after the death of the Eldar Pantheon.
Is that going to be a problem with Great Rituals?

As an aside, can we reinvent Thaumaturgy from first principles? The 2e kind, not the one shot 3e kind.
Not for a Greater Ritual. You overwrite them when they work with you.

2E Thaumaturgy? I do not remember it but wasn't it essentially Sorcerous Path Rituals?
 
Ephemera? The difficulty is less learning it and more finding someone to teach it to you or making it up from scratch. Due to lack of really friendly warp spirits, it is hard for some one to teach it to you. The beings that can do so can be counted in one heand, especially so after the death of the Eldar Pantheon.
So the local Spirits aren't insubstantial enough to teach it?

I assume Isha is locked up too tight without a MAJOR Working, but (considering SB&W does work on non-spiritual entities) would it be possible to summon a Harlequin?
2E Thaumaturgy? I do not remember it but wasn't it essentially Sorcerous Path Rituals?
Eh, sort of but actually no. Thaumaturgy was to Sorcery (and some not-traditionally-sorcery magic like artificing) what M20 Sorcery is to Magecraft. It can do some similar things, looks kinda similar and is significantly more accessible, but it's infinitely shittier and significantly more expensive. As an example, the Thaumaturgic version of summoning a First Circle Demon (the weak ones) costs as much as buying a purebred race horse and then you don't actually have any way of controlling the Demon once it gets there. The thaumaturgical version of artifact crafting is "spend enough money to build a villa (or buy a purebred magical lion-horse) and two Exotic Ingredients to make a shitty Artifact that can be trivially disenchanted, doesn't have the durability of a true artifact and will burn out in a few decades even if perfectly maintained, which a proper Artificer could have made an indestructible permanent version of for the cost of an old donkey, one Exotic and significantly less time".
 
Let me look this up and get back to you. Though I do recall it was fairly useless and never used it, but I was playing either Solars or Infernals so I never had a use for them.
So the local Spirits aren't insubstantial enough to teach it?
Yes. Also a combination of a Spirit not needing to do that. Land locked Spirits and World Souls are fundamentally in the materium, similar to how a human soul or any soul of a living being is in the Materium.

So it does not fall into their preview. Think of Spirits as having a Domain. For most World Soul Spirits, it falls under weather manipulation of one flavor or another.

Note that the Spirits Cannot teach you summoning as well and that the actual art of summoning was something that leaked out from the Covenant and was refined via trial and error where the Spirits helped the Shamans perfect it as best as they were able to. They got all the Chaos Corruption parts out but the art was very much incomplete until you Exalted and took a crowbar to reality.

As for Isha and the other order gods? Yeah, they definitely can teach it.

As for the Harlequin, depends. In the Webway? No. In reality? Perhaps. You need to try but IC you do not know about them.
 
What about heresy Charm? Why they are called in such a way?
Heresy charms are charms made from the charms of two or more different Yozi. It is a political classification, so it does not matter.
Is it possible to enhance or modify archetype of Lorgar or even give him Anathema status like Emperor?
With Sorcery? yes, charms? No. You can grant Lorgar True faith background but that would be the limit of it.

That said, Lorgar can become an Anathema like the Emperor if he works on himself, all Primarches can, but Lorgar is a special case even among the Primarches. More than this is spoiler, so sorry.
 
What about heresy Charm? Why they are called in such a way?
Heresy charms are charms that have prerequisites from more than one Yozi. Normally, when an Infernal invents a new Charm the Yozi also gets it. This is part of why they allow Infernals to make charms in the first place, since they're otherwise incapable of growth or change. But since Yozi can't infringe on each others' domains, they don't get hybrid Charms, making them Heretical.
Is it possible to enhance or modify archetype of Lorgar or even give him Anathema status like Emperor?
Should honestly be incredibly easy. She Who Lives In Her Name is the Principle of Hierarchy, hates chaos and has automatic type advantage against the Wyld and Raksha, which aren't 1:1 with the Warp and Daemons, but pretty fucking close.
 
What do mesm by true faith background? I thought Lorgar got Emperor's Faith?
It is in the World of Darkness wiki. Google "True Faith background World of Darkness" and you should get it. I would link but I am not sure on the rules.

But sufficient to say, both the Vampire and Mage versions fit Lorgar very well.

Here is a brief look.
In a world of horror and uncertainty, your mage keeps a small core of shining faith alive. Your character has a strong belief in and love for the Almighty power that drives the universe - be it God, Allah, the Hindu pantheon, or even just faith that everything will turn out all right.
 
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It is in the World of Darkness wiki. Google "True Faith background World of Darkness" and you should get it. I would link but I am not sure on the rules.

But sufficient to say, both the Vampire and Mage versions fit Lorgar very well.

Here is a brief look.
Is True Faith possible without backing of a God?

How does God creation work in exalted? Can a Philosophy or Ideal like Imperial truth Manifest as God or is it Similar like Alaya in type moon aka human order?
 
Is True Faith possible without backing of a God?

How does God creation work in exalted? Can a Philosophy or Ideal like Imperial truth Manifest as God or is it Similar like Alaya in type moon aka human order?
Yes, here is a short blurb.
In a world of horror and uncertainty, your mage keeps a small core of shining faith alive. Your character has a strong belief in and love for the Almighty power that drives the universe - be it God, Allah, the Hindu pantheon, or even just faith that everything will turn out all right.
So how True faith works is that if you believe it enough, it becomes true, kinda like the Warp, which is what makes True Faith so powerful. More on this once Lorgar's pod crashes into the planet.
This characteristic is not necessarily increased through experience. Certainly, it may arise as a result of a person's experience, but it is more vital than that, more a measure of conviction and strength of mind. Nor is it necessarily something that comes from outside the individual, from some God or angel. Whether or not their beliefs are correct, these people believe so unwaveringly that their own conviction protects them. Other beings might develop True Faith based on forces that hold a special relation to the believer. A Mokolé might develop True Faith in the Sun.
 
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