Red Rationalist
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Thank you for the clarification, I should have read the mechanics section to the end.
Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest
- Thread starter Photomajig
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- Fantasy Historic
Red Rationalist
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With this in mind, there are better options for cavalry movement, assuming the 10th isn't particularly unlucky. The 108th can move (E,E); putting them right at the edge of the forest. The 55th benefits especially, as they can move (E,E,SE,SE), which put them in the excellent position of being able to destroy the dwarven volunteer artillery and also puts them in a blindspot for the 75th. The only potential hickup would be the 20th half Jäg, who could potentially melee one of the units, though I expect the enemy to be in a full retreat by then.
I'm presenting a modified version of aggressive advance, as @Pinniped has presented a solid proposal for the northern advance with infantry.
-[] Draft Plan Aggressive Advance, With Cavalry Shenanigans
-[] 251st Hob: Move SE, E
-[] 10th Hum Art: Fire at 14th Half Jäg [79% for routing, +1 cohesion to 55th]
-[] 200th Hob: Move E
-[] 72nd Hum: [go first] Charge E, E, E
-[] 148th Hum: Move E, NE, E
-[] 42nd Elv: Move NE, E, E
-[] 45th Elv: ROUTING
-[] 16th Half: ROUTING
-[] 19th Half: Rapid move E, Ready Fire [E, Med. Range]
-[] 28th Half: Move NE
-[] 55th Elv. Hsr: Charge [E,E,E,SE,SE] {2*4+1 = 9}
-[] 108th: Move E, E {3+6}
-[] 13th Hob Lanc: Move NW, NW, W
-[] 84th Elv Art: Fire at 14th Half Jäg [medium range, increases chance of rout]
-[] 31sr Elv Art: Fire at 177th Hum
-[] 5th Hob. H. Art.: Fire at 1st Hum Hsr [66% for 4+ cohesion dmg.]
-[] HQ: Resupply 10th Hum Art
I'm presenting a modified version of aggressive advance, as @Pinniped has presented a solid proposal for the northern advance with infantry.
-[] Draft Plan Aggressive Advance, With Cavalry Shenanigans
-[] 251st Hob: Move SE, E
-[] 10th Hum Art: Fire at 14th Half Jäg [79% for routing, +1 cohesion to 55th]
-[] 200th Hob: Move E
-[] 72nd Hum: [go first] Charge E, E, E
-[] 148th Hum: Move E, NE, E
-[] 42nd Elv: Move NE, E, E
-[] 45th Elv: ROUTING
-[] 16th Half: ROUTING
-[] 19th Half: Rapid move E, Ready Fire [E, Med. Range]
-[] 28th Half: Move NE
-[] 55th Elv. Hsr: Charge [E,E,E,SE,SE] {2*4+1 = 9}
-[] 108th: Move E, E {3+6}
-[] 13th Hob Lanc: Move NW, NW, W
-[] 84th Elv Art: Fire at 14th Half Jäg [medium range, increases chance of rout]
-[] 31sr Elv Art: Fire at 177th Hum
-[] 5th Hob. H. Art.: Fire at 1st Hum Hsr [66% for 4+ cohesion dmg.]
-[] HQ: Resupply 10th Hum Art
Red Rationalist
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Might as well start the vote, as our discussion has come to a conclusion.
-[X] Plan Aggressive Advance, With Cavalry Shenanigans
-[X] 251st Hob: Resupply 5th Hob H Art [necessary for 3 shots and art. experience is invaluable]
-[X] 10th Hum Art: Fire at 14th Half Jäg [79% for routing, +1 cohesion to 55th]
-[X] 200th Hob: Move E
-[X] 72nd Hum: [go first] Charge E, E, E
-[X] 148th Hum: Move E, NE, E
-[X] 42nd Elv: Charge NE, E, E
-[X] 45th Elv: ROUTING
-[X] 16th Half: ROUTING
-[X] 19th Half: Rapid move E, Fire at 14th Half Jäg
-[X] 28th Half: Move NE,NE
-[X] 55th Elv. Hsr: Charge [E,E,E,SE,SE] {2*4+1 = 9} [charge trough 14th, if possible]
-[X] 108th: Charge E, E {3+6}
-[X] 13th Hob Lanc: Move E,NE,E {6 movement cost} // repositions them in the centre, with the threat of artillery gone this might further intimidate the enemy into a rout
-[X] 84th Elv Art: Fire at 14th Half Jäg [medium range, increases chance of rout]
-[X] 31st Elv Art: Fire at 1st Hum Hsr
-[X] 5th Hob. H. Art.: Fire at 1st Hum Hsr [66% for 4+ cohesion dmg.]
-[X] HQ: Resupply 10th Hum Art
-[X] Plan Aggressive Advance, With Cavalry Shenanigans
-[X] 251st Hob: Resupply 5th Hob H Art [necessary for 3 shots and art. experience is invaluable]
-[X] 10th Hum Art: Fire at 14th Half Jäg [79% for routing, +1 cohesion to 55th]
-[X] 200th Hob: Move E
-[X] 72nd Hum: [go first] Charge E, E, E
-[X] 148th Hum: Move E, NE, E
-[X] 42nd Elv: Charge NE, E, E
-[X] 45th Elv: ROUTING
-[X] 16th Half: ROUTING
-[X] 19th Half: Rapid move E, Fire at 14th Half Jäg
-[X] 28th Half: Move NE,NE
-[X] 55th Elv. Hsr: Charge [E,E,E,SE,SE] {2*4+1 = 9} [charge trough 14th, if possible]
-[X] 108th: Charge E, E {3+6}
-[X] 13th Hob Lanc: Move E,NE,E {6 movement cost} // repositions them in the centre, with the threat of artillery gone this might further intimidate the enemy into a rout
-[X] 84th Elv Art: Fire at 14th Half Jäg [medium range, increases chance of rout]
-[X] 31st Elv Art: Fire at 1st Hum Hsr
-[X] 5th Hob. H. Art.: Fire at 1st Hum Hsr [66% for 4+ cohesion dmg.]
-[X] HQ: Resupply 10th Hum Art
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Red Rationalist
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I guess we will have to yell slightly less at Jean after the battle.
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With a 20% chance not to rout the halflings this turn again, i feel like shooting them with the 19th too is quite important. If the jaegers dont rout our entire southern manouvre would fail.
Why not move now and resupply next turn, giving the 5th 2 more net munitions?
hmm, @Photomajig, can we do an order to attack if another unit faster unit blocks movement into the forest?
Like I already mentioned i think that shooting the 14th this turn would be better - and if we dont want to shoot them we probably would rather rest with the 19th, the ready fire is unlikely to get triggered and if it does its by the 102nd
why not move NE, NW, which does not lock us into a movement next turn and is just as fast when it comes to getting to the front
If the 20th moves, this charge will run into nothing, I would definitely prefer something that ensure we deal damage somehow
With Photo confirming, we can do a driveby charge at the 10th, moving first into the hill normally and then charging and moving into the 100th hex east of the hill
wait, i really dont understand why you are shooting with the 84th instead of the 19th?
The 84th can do a long range attack at the hussars or infantry line, which through gaining an advantage dont deal that much less damage and make the future charge north easier
Why are you shooting at the 177th instead of the way more dangerous hussars? to knock down their bonus?
these two cavalry regiments really are going to be a problem, absorbing multiple attacks
Do we want to resupply the 148th instead? the artilleries are still going to be supplied anyway next turn and even these two munitions may allow for one more shot in the front where ammunition problems are starting to pop up
I refuse, it was still a stupid decision that may very well cost us hundreds of escaping enemies
Red Rationalist
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That is why I also put the 31st on it. With them in medium range, they also have 47% chance of routing, bringing us up to a 87% chance. I can add the 19th ambush, though there is an issue of this potentially routing them again via triggering ready fire. But at some point we need to accept a slim chance for failure.
I want to use them to move NW for the sake of giving the retreating 16th a way to rest without screwing up our rear. They are probably not participating in this battle anyways.
If the 10th moves and no unit moves into the space, which I find unlikely.
This would end with the 108th in the forest, right? If so, I can add it in.
I don't see the advantage in refilling an infantry unit 2 turns before the battle ends.
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My proposal is not putting the 31st on the halflings and using them to shoot the hussars or enemy infantry line instead. We would have a higher chance to rout the enemy halfling with the 19th instead of the 31st and trying to get more damage in the north to facilitate the broad rout we want to facilitate is quite valuable. We would be spending the 19th ambush for a slightly higher chance to rout the halflings and for one extra long range artillery shot in the north.
There is one possible problem with that plan: the 19th ha only 2 shots left, so wouldnt shooting now would result in the same amounts of shots fired? And yes, it would, but even if i know that it is disliked, I believe that charging the road with the 19th in 2 turns would be their ideal use. Yes, they are hafllings and take more damage from melee, but 1) we dont expect the enemy to do melee back because they will be trying to escape and 2) even if they melee back, I consider a max of 10 additional dead halfling worth the extra damage to the extra line, as any further push would bring us closer to the full rout and capture opportunities we want.
Are you agreeing with me? the 28th on moving NE,NW instead of NE,NE would be less cumbersome when trying to ensure the 16th has a good retreat path
That is true, yeah the charge is good
Yeah, its the exact same movement just damaging the 100th once too.
Huh, you are completely sure that the battle ends in 2 turns? And yall called me hubristic!
I do not agree with this assessment. Yes, we will likely be moving into the capturing stage in 2 turns if everything works correctly, but it must be kept in mind that our charging manouvre this turn will be opening up a small opportunity for Wachenheim to get back into the fight again - if the interruption to his artillery was a feint well be fighting a bloody slog on the road that would drag for quite a bit more time.
Also this entire battle is a fully clausewitzian affair isnt it, with us using the advantages of the defense to exhaust the enemy and using offense to achieve our aims once we have achieved superiority
Not really, he charged too early. Timing is everything.
Also, his overeagerness caused his unit too instantly rout and thus miss out on the Glorious Charge we are now planning. We should definitely rub that fact in his face.
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Red Rationalist
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Okay, why? A long range shot at -50 will only deal one or two damage, which doesn't matter against the hussars or infantry. A med. ranged at disadvantage reduces our odds of failure further.
Sorry, I hit the wrong key. I meant NE,NE.
You mean after 2 of the enemy artillery units started packing up? Yeah, I'm really sure a general route is about to come.Huh, you are completely sure that the battle ends in 2 turns? And yall called me hubristic!
Ok, but why would he do that? This feint lowered damage against our cavalry during a crucial moment, letting the moment for fending them via artillery damage off pass for no discernible benefit. I can't see a way that makes sense, especially with his line being really close to the maps edge. He needs 4 turns to evacuate the artillery and it's not like his army is in good shape. The only reasonable explanation for not shooting at our cavalry the moment they enter is he started retreating with his artillery.
His artillery might also have been out of ammo, and thus they were forced to spend last turn resupplying. Durand herself mentioned this possibility in the update, actually.
If that is the case his artillery can fire again this turn, which would be bad for us, but not catastrophic, I think. But it's a risk we have to take.
I also disagree that the battle will necessarily be over in two turns. If Wahennheim chooses to abort his retreat, we might be in for a bloody slog of a fight on the road. However, with our cavalry flanking and us having relatively fresh hobgoblin troops available, I am pretty sure it is a fight we can win.
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He would do the feint because like i said our reaction to it opens up a possibility for him to salvage the battle because if he has working artillery he is suddenly in a situation where he can win this battle again.
Because at some point we need to accept a bit of risk and 1-2 damage could very well be the deciding factor.
Then i dont understand your argumentation. If we move NE,NE we will be walking into the retreating 28th
Red Rationalist
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That also doesn't make sense. They have fired since round 4 [5*2], with 2 of them being at the roadside and having plenty of infantry available as munitions carriers. During all of this time, they weren't resupplied to prolong the battle? Two units just so happen to run out of ammo at turn 11, with both of these being the artillery units who need the most time for a retreat. I don't think that holds water.
My point is: What advantage is there in feinting over just shooting the cavalry? If they fired, we would have possibly just pulled the hussars back, leaving him plenty of time for an orderly retreat. By comparison, he's giving us the incentive to actually charge, making any retreat tougher and potentially loosing more by putting us into a position where we can move further with the hussars.
One or two damage against the 1st hussars doesn't matter. Any reduction of the chance for the key element in our hussar charge to fail is valueable. We can shoot plenty more at the hussars, especially once they move into the line of fire. I don't see damaging the hussars as our biggest priority, especially since we don't know where they will actually position themselves.
You mean the routing unit, who will be pulling back further? I just think 2*NW keeps us quite flexible, allowing us to move into the forest or south of the forest without blocking the road. Same amount of movement costs, but keeps the road free.
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Who do you think will be using the road?
I actually consider NE, NW more flexible myself, because it does not force us into a movement next turn.
The 16th will presumably move W, NW and be safe to rest, but if it doesnt and move W,W itll be able to move all acros the lenght of the western road
The point of feinting would be an attempt to still be able to win the battle by baiting our charge and meeting us on the road like he wanted.
I guess we have different priorities there - I want to try capturing some of the northern forces too, for which we need to destroy the screening cavalry
I agree, which is why I am willing to risk the charge. However, we can't know for sure. Wahhenheim might be inexperienced commanding artillery, and may have just made a mistake when it comes to keeping them supplied.
Red Rationalist
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We will need to move next turn anyways to hit anything with them. I'm not going discuss this point about a single change in movement of a unit 9 tiles away from the enemy any further.
There isn't anything resembling a victory for Wachenheim. He needs to retreat, his units are badly damaged and backed into a corner.
Well, yeah. I prioritize destroying his field artillery, since that might add to our own arsenal.
Well, we have to see about that. If they weren't fleeing before, they will likely flee now that the artillery is threatened.
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BananosMoon
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-[X] Plan Aggressive Advance, With Cavalry Shenanigans
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- Germany
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Then we have simply different outlooks at the battlefield - I believe that Wachenheim could achieve a victory if he sucessfully fainted and drew us into overextending this turn, cause our units are damaged too and we have less of them and he does not really have a problem of being unable to manouvre, he still has enough space.
I mean, i want to destroy the artillery too, i simply want a better victory by getting more of his army
If he did faint his artilery is not that bad - with 2 close range jaeger shots and a close range artillery shot and the support of the line he would be destroying our cavalry if he isnt retreating.
My plan, with only minor difference in bold:
[X] Plan Calculated to the End
-[X] 251st Hob: Move SE, E, NE
-[X] 10th Hum Art: Fire at 14th Half Jäg [79% for routing, +1 cohesion to 55th]
-[X] 200th Hob: Move E
-[X] 72nd Hum: [go first] Charge E, E, E
-[X] 148th Hum: Charge E, NE, E
-[X] 42nd Elv: Charge NE, E, E
-[X] 45th Elv: ROUTING
-[X] 16th Half: ROUTING
-[X] 19th Half: Rapid move E, Fire at 14th Half Jäg
-[X] 28th Half: Move NE,NW
-[X] 55th Elv. Hsr: Charge [E,E,E,SE,SE] {2*4+1 = 9}
-[X] 108th: Charge E, E(moving into the hex) {3+6}
-[X] 13th Hob Lanc: Move E,NE,E,NE {7 movement cost}
-[X] 84th Elv Art: Fire at 14th Half Jäg [medium range, increases chance of rout]
-[X] 31st Elv Art: Fire at 177th Hum
-[X] 5th Hob. H. Art.: Fire at 1st Hum Hsr [66% for 4+ cohesion dmg.]
-[X] HQ: Resupply 148th Human
- Location
- New York
-[X] Plan Aggressive Advance, With Cavalry Shenanigans
What a miserable and frustrating battle it has been for both sides! We have taken more losses than we should have due to good luck on the enemy's part and the enemy may escape relatively intact as well. Barring a dramatic last minute reversal, it looks like the Nornish and Wachenheim will lose the battle despite having a bunch of genius-level COs and a numbers advantage. Wachenheim may be disgraced and out of a command for losing to an army that many elites would regard as revolutionary rabble. However, the Army of the West has a bunch of talented officers who were wasted under Wachenheim's inexperienced command. I fear what these officers might be able to achieve fighting against the Revolution under a better general.
Of course, it would be terrible to be a foot soldier in this battle as well. There is the constant heavy rain and mud while visibility is low with threats potentially suddenly appearing out of nowhere.
What a miserable and frustrating battle it has been for both sides! We have taken more losses than we should have due to good luck on the enemy's part and the enemy may escape relatively intact as well. Barring a dramatic last minute reversal, it looks like the Nornish and Wachenheim will lose the battle despite having a bunch of genius-level COs and a numbers advantage. Wachenheim may be disgraced and out of a command for losing to an army that many elites would regard as revolutionary rabble. However, the Army of the West has a bunch of talented officers who were wasted under Wachenheim's inexperienced command. I fear what these officers might be able to achieve fighting against the Revolution under a better general.
Of course, it would be terrible to be a foot soldier in this battle as well. There is the constant heavy rain and mud while visibility is low with threats potentially suddenly appearing out of nowhere.
Red Rationalist
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@Photomajig It might be a good idea to start a vote timer, in case you simply forgot to activate one.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Speaking of what a mess this battle has been, here's what someone else said about early French Revolution battles most being less decisive crushing victories, but more indecisive slugfests where the casualties were often equal, compared to more decisive battles of the Napoleonic era.
I don't have anywhere near the study in this part of history to say whether or not it's true, but maybe this'll help further solidify the combat mechanics.
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Though I have to say that even in Napoleonic battles, a lot of the lopsided casualties were when the enemy started to break. Being on the offensive, as Napoleon often was, and doing daring, bold things tends to have a cost in men.
We might still wind up with a meaningful advantage in casualties, if he retreats, just from the units we might be able to seize.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Yeah, being able to capture even a single unit of infantry would swing the casualty ratio wildly in our favor, provided we don't fuck up massively.
And capturing artillery would be immense in terms of material losses, given how much Influence it costs to get our own.
Incidentally, if we do capture another Field Gun battery or two, I wonder if we could give a couple away for Influence. We've already got one in reserve after all, and I believe it was pointed out we probably want Horse Artillery more than Field Artillery as time goes on and our army develops.
And capturing artillery would be immense in terms of material losses, given how much Influence it costs to get our own.
Incidentally, if we do capture another Field Gun battery or two, I wonder if we could give a couple away for Influence. We've already got one in reserve after all, and I believe it was pointed out we probably want Horse Artillery more than Field Artillery as time goes on and our army develops.