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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • Swordomatic said:
    Iunno about you but I think we have? We have the Beast Tide Trap, we have the Lightbeast, we have the Stone Spear in reserve, we have Xinya and their wedding band. We have set up the situation such that their only option is to advance through extremely hardened, extremely hazardous terrain, with necessarily poor positioning because their ground forces (who are Blood Path and, like sharks, will die if they stop moving(except in their case it's not suffocation, it's starvation)) have to mash their faces against fortresses and not farmlands, and in the sheer chaos and uncertainty of that kind of battlefield it's exactly where Manuel and Xinya excel at, being able to hit and fade even better than the usual Nascent Soul, given they are Intrigue specs.

    I think it's pretty indisputable that we have laid the groundwork for supporting this course of action, to a reasonable degree. But I'll assume that you think that there's more that should be done to mitigate the risk further and ensure Manuel's death is literally impossible, not just unlikely to a reasonable (that is to say, non-nat 1) extent.

    To that, my response is that I just don't think it's worth the effort to bring the odds to that level. Not when it constrains our own ability to act in other fields. We can't send one Nascent Soul to the Blood Oak, because if they really are hostile then a single Nascent Soul will just get killed - at best if we sent Kleisthenes, our most experienced one, she'll 'only' get wounded. And Casia's the one who can really do Peace Things and, if not end potential hostilities, then delay them. And she's newly Ascended, she'll die. If we send a single Nascent Soul there, it's got to be Manuel - except Manuel is not only wounded, he's our knife totting boogeyman. If we bring him, the implication is that we want a fight.

    And not handling the Blood Oak isn't an option either. They've been an unknown for too long and the fact that they've been an unknown this entire time is frankly a mistake on our part. This is a belligerent Blood Path power on our border - the wrong side of the border. We may have Nascent Superiority against them, but we're hardly only fighting against them. And we don't have enough Nascent Superiority to be able to keep a strong front against OC and, potentially, the Righteous Path, while also being able to keep a belligerent Blood Oak from sacking the shit out of the former Jingshen Clan core territories - which incidentally are a major part of how we're able to support so many new cultivators, grow new ones, and support this many Nascent Souls.

    Ultimately if it comes down to risking Manuel's injury - a risk that has been mitigated by past and present action - and risking a belligerent Blood Oak - a risk we have not mitigated at all and frankly aren't even aware of the full extent of - then I'm much more willing to risk Manuel.
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    Hm... what are the reasons not to simply conquer Blood Oak in the future as opposed to seeking peace with them? If we add the Yuan patriarch to our lineup, we would be looking at two Mid Nascents and three Early Nascents, effectively four with a 100 Cores Hoplite Formation and with our rising numbers and Good Seeds we may well be able to deploy that alongside the legions instead of choosing either or.

    To be clear, I am not talking this turn - I am talking next turn, if we heavily commit to Yuan to guarantee success there. If Blood Oak uses the opportunity to strike at our borders in the meantime, that provides us with ample justification for striking back afterwards.

    Just in general - why are we doing diplomacy with a Blood Path power and expecting them to uphold a deal long term, to the extent of committing two Nascent Actions to trying to secure it and risking Manuel in the process? As I see it if he gets injured Blood Oak will break any deal they make with us anyway once they catch wind of it - and with the amount of Nascents we will have, conquest does not seem unfeasible. They can't threaten our borders if they don't exist.
     
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    Shard said:
    I apologize, but this link is unfortunately broken.

    Incidentally, are there any plans in the short or medium term to acquire the Mystery Box Imperator's Mosaic?
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    Part of the calculus I'm running with by trying to end the Yuan Invasion this turn is that it gives us enough latitude to have Manuel focusing on Shadow Key Token meditation for the immediate future, along with letting us go into next turn with as much of a Purchase Surplus as possible. The sooner we can afford to open the Heart Realm or repair the Technique Palace, the sooner we can pick up the Mosaic.
     
    Swordomatic said:
    I think it's pretty indisputable that we have laid the groundwork for supporting this course of action,
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    We did I'm not disputing the action itself, rather that with the injury the personal risk for Manual has risen to high and so must be brought down either by treasure or by sending extra nascent souls.

    Swordomatic said:
    Ultimately if it comes down to risking Manuel's injury - a risk that has been mitigated by past and present action - and risking a belligerent Blood Oak - a risk we have not mitigated at all and frankly aren't even aware of the full extent of - then I'm much more willing to risk Manuel.
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    I just think that the risk for injury (and severe injury at that) and maybe even death is way to high with the wound to risk it without extra stacking of the deck.
     
    Crunbum said:
    Hm... what are the reasons not to simply conquer Blood Oak in the future as opposed to seeking peace with them?
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    Besides the fact that OC's coming back in like two turns and we're already cutting the prep for that really close... one of the Blood Oak's defensive legacies buffs one of their Nascents to Spirit Severing.

    uri said:
    I just think that the risk for injury (and severe injury at that) and maybe even death is way to high with the wound to risk it without extra stacking of the deck.
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    How do you plan to mitigate the risk of the Blood Oak then?
     
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    Swordomatic said:
    Besides the fact that OC's coming back in like two turns and we're already cutting the prep for that really close... one of the Blood Oak's defensive legacies buffs one of their Nascents ti Spirit Severing.
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    Quite literally, yes.

    occipitallobe said:
    The Great Blood Crystal stored all the Blood Qi absorbed from the various Blood Acorn cultivators when they die. The Blood Acorns feed the Artery Oak, but also feed power into the Crystal. This Crystal can empower the Oak Nascent to absurd levels. By my estimation, it is possible for the Oak Nascent to use the Qi there to temporarily reach Spirit Severing levels of power. However, the Blood Qi can only be used while near one of the Artery Oak cuttings or the Artery Oak itself, and would take all the accumulation within the crystal for the last ten millennia to reach a Spirit Severing level of power. It was merely a minor crystal millennia ago, but continues to expand with the never-ending infusion of pure Blood Qi.
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    And this was revealed to us before the Blood Mists happened. Which is why its been a mistake to not give them any attention up to this point, even if the situation with the Blood Path powers coordinated offensive was otherwise too tempting to not go in on as we ultimately have.
     
    TehChron said:
    And this was revealed to us before the Blood Mists happened. Which is why its been a mistake to not give them any attention up to this point, even if the situation with the Blood Path powers coordinated offensive was otherwise too tempting to not go in on as we ultimately have.
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    ...Why do we think their Nascent won't use up a large part of the Crystal to boost himself up to Great Circle Nascent and kill both Casia and Kleisthenes and then devour them to break through to Late while still having the larger part of his insurance policy remaining? Two Nascents are no trivial meal and one of them is even freshly ascended and thus very vulnerable.

    Even if he does not do that, we have no guarantee they will side with us over OC. Especially since said defensive legacy means they don't need to fear him invading their lands afterwards - while we are the weaker side between the two so even if we convinced them it would be difficult to get their Nascents to leave their lands where they could get killed because they can't use the legacy there.

    Like... just imagine Klei and Casia both get eaten trying to negotiate while Manuel gets crippled because we get very unlucky in the Yuan War... the quest would basically be over if that happened.
     
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    uri said:
    Do it next turn. I'm not sure if that would just be the same actions you want to do this turn or some other action combination but next turn.
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    Okay. Then what if the Blood Oak choose to act this year? What happens if something fucky happens then and we're caught flatfooted because all of our Nascent Souls are busy in Yuan? Our most valuable territory - and I do not say this lightly, but the Jingshen Core Lands are literally our main lifeline keeping us in the RP's favour at all, to say nothing of quite literally fueling a massive chunk of our Cultivator Capacity - borders them and is a natural target for a raid. What happens if it gets hit next turn and we have not even advance warning? Like you said, Manuel is wounded - and the wound is fluffed as him still decompressing his memories from the Trial Tournament. It would be reasonable to say that he would be unable to use his Dao Divination to determine if they will attack us or when that will happen - not that he would be able to do it normally either, because he can only divine secrets if he knows whose secrets to poke at - and so we would have no advance warning if we don't have anyone poking at them.

    It's been a miracle the Blood Oak hasn't tried to be shitty with us so far, even though we are now Desert Hegemon and their new neighbour and should at least extend diplomatic inroads. So what do we do if they decide to raid us this turn?
     
    Crunbum said:
    ...Why do we think their Nascent won't use up a large part of the Crystal to boost himself up to Great Circle Nascent and kill both Casia and Kleisthenes and then devour them to break through to Late while still having the larger part of his insurance policy remaining?

    Even if he does not do that, we have no guarantee they will side with us over OC. Especially since said defensive legacy means they don't need to fear him invading their lands afterwards - while we are the weaker side between the two so even if we convinced them it would be difficult to get their Nascents to leave their lands where they could get killed because they can't use the legacy there.
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    ...Because using a defensive 'Oh Shit I'm Getting Invaded' emergency button power offensively is extremely stupid.

    I don't expect them to magically become friends with us and drop their deal with Altar Lord. I just want to know what their diplomatic disposition is and what we can do.
     
    Swordomatic said:
    kay. Then what if the Blood Oak choose to act this year?
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    The year they invade the Quingi? Well I suppose we can leave one nascent on the home front or just buy the defensive treasure and do the actions this turn.

    Swordomatic said:
    hat happens if something fucky happens then and we're caught flatfooted because all of our Nascent Souls are busy in Yuan?
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    And what happens if we lose manual because we didn't give him enough backup? Or he gets horribly injured?
     
    Swordomatic said:
    ...Because using a defensive 'Oh Shit I'm Getting Invaded' emergency button power offensively is extremely stupid.

    I don't expect them to magically become friends with us and drop their deal with Altar Lord. I just want to know what their diplomatic disposition is and what we can do.
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    How is that stupid if their Nascent thought the act could get him to a Late Nascent baseline? He does not need to consume the entire crystal and hit Spirit Severing to kill two Earlies in his heartlands, meaning he could still use it to for temporary Great Circle Nascent boosts afterwards.

    Being a Late stage gives him a far better bargaining position with Old Cannibal later on and allows him to split the Golden Devils as spoils of war if they cooperate. Not using the legacy at all, on the other hand... does that not just consign him to a raiding war of attrition if OC beats us, until he eventually has to use it anyway and exhausts the energies over time to inevitably get conquered afterwards?
     
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    Broadly speaking, as best as we know, the Blood Oak Sect wants to be Left The Fuck Alone, we want to be Left the Fuck Alone, we are not in competition. I'm just hoping they haven't escalated to pure "The time has come to remove our masks, all grin evilly, and proceed to blood path all over the Region"
     
    uri said:
    The year they invade the Quingi? Well I suppose we can leave one nascent on the home front or just buy the defensive treasure and do the actions this turn.
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    Note that Casia has a very useful [Harmony of Administration] action that she can use while remaining behind in the Clan Lands, giving us 2 Purchases for essentially free if we did that.
     
    Crunbum said:
    ...Why do we think their Nascent won't use up a large part of the Crystal to boost himself up to Great Circle Nascent and kill both Casia and Kleisthenes and then devour them to break through to Late while still having the larger part of his insurance policy remaining?
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    ...Because then they'd have a war to the knife, and we would have Manuel spamming actions to find their secrets and expose the Artery Oak to exfoliants the same way we introduced Weeping Anvil to the Vanguard Clap?

    Like, if they had relations with the Jingshen, they're fully aware of what the Jingshen are like on the defensive. And we ganked the Jingshen. They're also the easily most isolated power in the region by an extremely vast margin. It would suck for us. A lot.

    But we'd kill them, and that's a possibility they're going to be cognizant of...Because Kleisthenes is smart enough to actually point it out to them should they try and act aggressive. Which is also why we're going in peace.

    To express that we're treating them seriously, and non aggressively. The ideal outcome here is non interference with the last remaining unknown factor bordering us, and also see if we can't negotiate a way to split up the Qiguai between the two of us. So long as we retain access to the Secret Realm and the Righteous Powers don't...Who cares?

    That's our minimum threshold for dealing with that situation met.
     
    Crunbum said:
    ...Why do we think their Nascent won't use up a large part of the Crystal to boost himself up to Great Circle Nascent and kill both Casia and Kleisthenes and then devour them to break through to Late while still having the larger part of his insurance policy remaining? Two Nascents are no trivial meal and one of them is even freshly ascended and thus very vulnerable.

    Even if he does not do that, we have no guarantee they will side with us over OC. Especially since said defensive legacy means they don't need to fear him invading their lands afterwards - while we are the weaker side between the two so even if we convinced them it would be difficult to get their Nascents to leave their lands where they could get killed because they can't use the legacy there.

    Like... just imagine Klei and Casia both get eaten trying to negotiate while Manuel gets crippled because we get very unlucky in the Yuan War... the quest would basically be over if that happened.
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    Because they likely can't sustain a Late Nascent as those are nigh impossible to actually sustain here. we don't even have the capacity to do so and we are MUCH larger. Further more NS can escape SS, and if he uses it and misses he just Makes himself a very tasty target for everyone. It's kinda like why we don't try to use our late stage Nascent will in our capital as an offensive weapon. Far far too much can go wrong for too little reward.
    uri said:
    The year they invade the Quingi? Well I suppose we can leave one nascent on the home front or just buy the defensive treasure and do the actions this turn.


    And what happens if we lose manual because we didn't give him enough backup? Or he gets horribly injured?
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    We still lose Manuel even WITH going full ham on a nat 1. Stacking doesn't improve those odds noticeably, and we'd be leaving ourselves wide open over committing to one area. Meanwhile we can try to make or mend bridges with the Oaks while leveraging Klei and Casia and lets be frank this turn Casia uses a NS is utility only, she isn't going to fight worth a plug nickel on nascent scale. Our best way to leverage that utility is with the Oaks, but she needs an escort just in case. I.E. stacking the deck in our favor and making sure the air is cleared before things can turn bad.
     
    uri said:
    The year they invade the Quingi? Well I suppose we can leave one nascent on the home front or just buy the defensive treasure and do the actions this turn.


    And what happens if we lose manual because we didn't give him enough backup? Or he gets horribly injured?
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    If he dies in spite of the precautions we have given him then it is what it is. I think I've done what I can to balance the needs of the Clan, both immediate and in the future. Because ultimately all of this scheming and plotting is so that we have the means to fight Old Cannibal, while retaining enough strength to still be able to hold off the swarm of Favoured once they hit their peak and the Righteous Nascent Flood descends upon us.

    I do not think Manuel is at much risk of dying, given what we've committed and what we will be committing - there's no way in hell Yuan isn't at least one Mission going forward and I've already put Katha (newly ascended at Foundation and she hits at FE14) down for Fanatically Aids The Clan - but if he does wind up dying anyways, then I can at least be glad that I've tried my best to balance these plates.

    Crunbum said:
    How is that stupid if their Nascent thought the act could get him to a Late Nascent baseline? He does not need to consume the entire crystal and hit Spirit Severing to kill two Earlies in his heartlands, meaning he could still use it to for temporary Great Circle Nascent boosts afterwards.

    Being a Late stage gives him a far better bargaining position with Old Cannibal later on and allows him to split the Golden Devils as spoils of war if they cooperate. Not using the legacy at all, on the other hand... does that not just consign him to a raiding war of attrition if OC beats us, until he eventually has to use it anyway and exhausts the energies over time to inevitably get conquered afterwards?
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    You don't rise to Late Nascent Soul just by eating two Early Nascents. Old Cannibal successfully rose to Late Nascent after eating the Elder of Day, but it's important to note that:
    - Old Cannibal had been at Mid Nascent Soul for a very long time
    - The Seven Divine Saber Palace's Elder of Day, their Mid Nascent Soul Sect Leader, was also one of the most powerful Mid Nascent Souls in the Region
    - We don't know what else Old Cannibal has been snacking on ever since he was exiled to the Verdant South, though it's implied that he ate a shitload of Core Elders from the Chuan Clan not that long before that (his gambit against Old Fish)

    Compared to that, a decently experienced Early Nascent (Kleisthenes) and a newly ascended Early Nascent (Casia) are nothing in comparison.

    Also Kleisthenes does have an LST, she'll just become essentially worthless for soft diplomacy afterwards (though she'll probably be very good at intimidation).
     
    Also this stuff about Kleisthenes being at risk at the Oaks is unfounded.

    We bought her an LST when she ascended to Nascent Soul to begin with. If the Blood Oaks lose their mind and attack the diplomats, we'll only lose Casia for sure. Kleisthenes will make her way back, even if in less than optimal condition. And we'll have confirmation that the power with little force projection and a very powerful trump card is decidedly hostile to us. While otherwise being completely surrounded by us.

    So in that scenario, the worst case is that we're forced to abandon plans to mitigate the Old Cannibal issue in exchange for prioritizing doing some gardening work. In the absence of the Artery Oak and the Blood Crystal, the Oaks are simply not a threat to us save for self destructing.

    Thats the benefit of having multiple skullduggery specialized Nascent Souls.
     
    TehChron said:
    ...Because then they'd have a war to the knife, and we would have Manuel spamming actions to find their secrets and expose the Artery Oak to exfoliants the same way we introduced Weeping Anvil to the Vanguard Clap?

    Like, if they had relations with the Jingshen, they're fully aware of what the Jingshen are like on the defensive. And we ganked the Jingshen. They're also the easily most isolated power in the region by an extremely vast margin. It would suck for us. A lot.

    But we'd kill them, and that's a possibility they're going to be cognizant of...Because Kleisthenes is smart enough to actually point it out to them should they try and act aggressive. Which is also why we're going in peace.

    To express that we're treating them seriously, and non aggressively. The ideal outcome here is non interference with the last remaining unknown factor bordering us, and also see if we can't negotiate a way to split up the Qiguai between the two of us. So long as we retain access to the Secret Realm and the Righteous Powers don't...Who cares?

    That's our minimum threshold for dealing with that situation met.
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    I mean since Old Cannibal is about to show up they really wouldn't care about Manuel doing this or that in retaliation, they could just conquer us together since we'd be down two Nascents and they would have two Late Nascents on top of several lower stage ones.

    The Jingshen did not have a Spirit Severing booster legacy. Kinda hard to invade a Sect that has that while you have, at that point, a Wounded Mid Nascent and an Early, because the Yuan Lord would abandon us immediately if we lost two Early Nascents and had both OC and Blood Oak, both with a Late at the helm, breathing down our neck. In short, I really don't see Blood Oak needing to fear our retaliation if we were down two Early and they were up a Late, all while keeping their legacy superweapon largely intact in the process. Manuel would be about as much a threat to their survival at that point as a stray chicken, even if he were not Wounded.

    So long as we succeed in Yuan and thus end up the turn with 2 Mid Nascents and 3 Early ones plus a prosperous Clan by and large... why do we even need to care about Blood Oak? Even if they teamed up with Old Cannibal, we could just defend against the both of them combined.
     
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