Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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[X] Plan Balanced Approach
-[X] Set Prices High - Hold onto the supplies for now in case the Pass cannot be reopened for half a century or more. This will cause more casualties now, but less in the long-term.
-[X] Enhance the Beast Tide Trap more. Put all your eggs in the scariest basket and hope the thread uses it at the right moment.
-[X] Fortifying (Yuan Clan) - Spend Clan manpower and soldiers to build new fortifications against outside enemies. New Arrays, help train new cultivators in lesser Formations to defend their lands, and so on. Will also strengthen a vassal or ally if chosen, and increase relations with them.
-[X] Manuel - Assist A Faction (Yuan Clan)
-[X] Xinya - Assist A Faction (Yuan Clan)
-[X] Kleisthenes - Open Diplomatic Relations (Blood Oak Sect)
-[X] Casia - Offer Peace (Blood Oak Sect)
-[X] The Pill Forges (Minor Purchase - 1 Purchase)
-[X] Forge a Wedding Ring (Major Purchase - 2 Purchases)
-[X] Use 4 Shadow Key Points to Purchase the The Gravebone Panoply (Only deploy against the Yuan Invasion if it proves difficult)
-[X] Use 2 Shadow Key Points to Purchase the Chrysocolla Paints (Equip Manuel against the Yuan Invasion)
 
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He was a mid Nascent. Old Cannibal engaged a massive gambit pileup to bait out the Elder of Day to fuel his jump to Late Nascent Soul, after having been at that stage since an unknown amount of time before the start of the Quest.

You do not recall correctly. What we saw of the event is explained from his own perspective, including how and why he did things in the fashion he did. The only reason everyone was surprised was because no one took him seriously as Manuel's desert foil.
Right, it has been a while. But.. doesn't that sounds even worse?
It means any Mid Nascent can gamble anytime to try and devour others (like their allies) as a gamble to break into Late - and succeed. Gambling sounds rather attractive to the Ma Emperor since for him this is either victory or death.
 
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That sounds even worse, since it means any Mid Nascent can try to devour their allies as a gamble to break into Late - and succeed.
Gambling sounds rather attractive to the Ma Emperor, since for him it is victory or death.
The Ma Emperor has no allies.

He has two Early Nascent soul minders he paid to help support his Invasion and even if he did eat them theres no indication of that being sufficient to push him into Late Nascent Soul.

Setting aside that this would be a direct challenge to the Noble Devil Alliance, giving Altar Lord an excuse to gank him in person. And that's assuming that the NKS Leader doesn't just poison him through divination shenanigans the Ma Emperor has no defense against.

The scenario you're describing is only possible if the Ma Emperor has already gotten beaten up by Xinya and Manuel, successfully escaped said ambush, and this badly beaten Ma Emperor manages to successfully get the drop on two more Early Nascent souls to eat them both without dying in the attempt.
 
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[X] Plan -ned Suppression

This plan makes the most sense to me yes there's risk but I feel said risk is manageable for us.
 
The Ma Emperor has no allies.

He has two Early Nascent soul minders he paid to help support his Invasion and even if he did eat them theres no indication of that being sufficient to push him into Late Nascent Soul.

Setting aside that this would be a direct challenge to the Noble Devil Alliance, giving Altar Lord an excuse to gank him in person. And that's assuming that the NKS Leader doesn't just poison him through divination bullshit the Ma Emperor has no defense against.

The scenario you're describing is only possible if the Ma Emperor has already gotten beaten up by Xinya and Manuel, successfully escaped said ambush, and this badly beaten Ma Emperor manages to successfully get the drop on two more Early Nascent souls to eat them both without dying in the attempt.

Does that sound plausible to you?
Again - this assumes everything goes exactly as we hope it would and that we have perfect information on the invasion.
We don't - and there is no guarantee that nothing will go wrong or that we accounted for everything.

Getting the defensive treasures hedges our bets here, allowing us to both send two Nascents to Blood Oak to reap the benefits of your plan and defend the Yuan risk-free at the same time. Perhaps more importantly, the treasures are both going to be very useful long-term.

The Gravebone Panoply is a Spirit Severing defensive artifact which will be invaluable against Late Nascents once we inevitably clash with Old Cannibal and his vassals. He is our main threat to continental domination and has both more and stronger Nascents than we do.
The Chrysocolla Paints is described as having allowed 13 Nascents and 24 000 Cores to hold off 3 Spirit Severing Cultivators without losses. We cannot field that large a force - but even in the short term, two Mid Nascents and three Early Nascents backed by two hundred Cores and led by Manuel with the Stone Spear, armored in the Gravebone Panoply would allow us to punch up at the Great Circle Nascent Souls just fine.
 
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The Chrysocolla Paints is described as having allowed 13 Nascents and 24 000 Cores to hold off 3 Spirit Severing Cultivators without losses. We cannot field that large a force - but even in the short term, two Mid Nascents and three Early Nascents backed by two hundred Cores and led by Manuel with the Stone Spear, armored in the Gravebone Panoply would allow us to punch up at the Great Circle Nascent Souls just fine.
Point of order: There isn't that much of the Chrysocolla Paints even left to use. Definitely not enough for a Nascent scale conflict. There's a reason why the description in the Legacies page only mentions its use to save ten Legions.

Lags — 02/17/2022 4:30 AM
Occipitallobe can Manual, other nascents, the core formation elders and large numbers of foundation establishment experts have the chrysocolla paints applied to them to power up Manual for nascent fights?
Occipitallobe — 02/17/2022 4:34 AM
Yes, but the power throroughput for the old remnants of paints that have remained is quite low
he might get a core or two's worth of boost at best
[ ] The Chrysocolla Paints - 2 Purchases to unlock

There is enough paint here to equip ten Legions. Unless a Legion is wiped out entirely while using the Chrysocolla Paints, its casualties will be minimal to nil.
 
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Again - this assumes everything goes exactly as we think it should and that we have perfect information on the invasion.
We don't - and there is no guarantee that nothing will go wrong or that we accounted for everything.
This is legit going to be my last comment on this line of argument since you're proving intractable, but the actions I'm proposing we take to have that information are identical to the ones we would otherwise take to do what you're implying should be done.

  • We have our Nascent Soul Spymaster prepare for an assassination
  • We have our strongest combatant with their strongest defensive and offensive equipment take point on said assassination
  • We have the Clan at large support the assassination by making preparations to enable it

They're the exact same. And while I acknowledge you're not willing to budge on this matter, I'm laying it out so everyone can clearly understand the situation as it stands so this can be my last post on that subject
 
Point of order: There isn't that much of the Chrysocolla Paints even left to use. Definitely not enough for a Nascent scale conflict. There's a reason why the description in the Legacies page only mentions its use to save ten Legions.

Lags — 02/17/2022 4:30 AM
Occipitallobe can Manual, other nascents, the core formation elders and large numbers of foundation establishment experts have the chrysocolla paints applied to them to power up Manual for nascent fights?
Occipitallobe — 02/17/2022 4:34 AM
Yes, but the power throroughput for the old remnants of paints that have remained is quite low
he might get a core or two's worth of boost at best
Fair - do note that I mentioned fighting Great Circle Nascent enemies with it though, not Spirit Severing like in the item's description. Even a modest boost to our Nascent Souls alongside tripling the power of all our Cores and allowing our Foundation cultivators to fight Core Formation sounds well worth the 2 point cost to me.

Consider that we can normally only field one Hoplite formation of 100 Core Elders, enough to match one Early Nascent. With the paints we would be able to field three such formations of one-third the size each but equivalent strength, or one formation that can match a Mid Nascent by itself, in addition to our Foundation tier fighters covering the battlefield roles that Core experts would normally need to fulfill.
 
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Even a modest boost to our Nascent Souls alongside tripling the power of all our Cores and allowing our Foundation cultivators to fight Core Formation sounds well worth the cost, though?
Youd rather waste a one time use resource on a hypothetical Late Nascent Soul in the Ma Emperor instead of the very real Nascent Soul that is Old Cannibal?
 
Because he had an Achillies heel and we found it. we know next to nothing about the invading nascent souls.
Note that we knew nothing of Weeping Anvil's weakness when we began diplomacy with him for the legacies come Turn 13. Then Kleisthenes just knew exactly what to threaten him with when the talks came and the actions for creating the Droplet of Rust and Ruin became available on Turn 14, which we then executed in Turn 15.

We (the Clan) also know quite a few things about the invading Nascent Souls, even if we (the audience) don't; we know the identity of Ma Emperor from before he fell to the Blood Path and we know that Noble Knowledge Sect is supporting this invasion. We also know that Noble Knowledge Sect currently has three Nascent Souls: Divination Poison Lord, their Mid Nascent Soul (and Sect Leader), and two Early Nascent Souls that we know details about, but currently don't have their information as Occi hasn't written that down, because it hasn't been relevant yet. And we also know that them sending all their Nascent Souls to support this assault would be unreasonably foolhardy of them - because they're also at war with the Righteous Path, especially the Bear Enslavement Sect, as they prosecute the Poison Crushing Siege - so at least one Nascent Soul and possibly two of them will be in their own lands. This will almost certainly be Divination Poison Lord himself, because he is Sect Leader, and as Mid Nascent he is the greatest reserve power the Clan has, and risking his life in an invasion that has already gone wrong for them, for someone he doesn't particularly care for beyond this deal, would be risky. But we have a plan for if he's here as well, and it's called 'make him miserable enough to just fuck off and leave because this isn't a fight he has to commit to'.

This is a fight Ma Emperor has to commit to. He has sold away his Clan's lands and his people have nowhere to go. He has no Nascent Souls to feast on and can only break open Yuan's incredibly hardened defensive points to get any of the Yuan Cultivators, so his only available food source is his own Clan. He has no option but to attack, because delaying loses him everything he's fighting for.

(Blood Path's really fucked up like that.)

Incidentally the Nascent Soul List for this Region is available here, for people who don't know what I'm talking about.

Notably we also didn't know about the Spirit Severing Light Qi Trap that Old Cannibal tried to spring on us during the Cannibal War that ultimately ousted him from the Desert, nor did we know that he had given the Light Qi to the Jingshen when Jiao tried to spring it on us. Manuel dealt with it both times. Assuming that our lack of knowledge is Manuel's lack of knowledge is dangerously paranoid. This is the sort of thing you ask the GM about, not take for granted that we do not know.
Again - this assumes everything goes exactly as we hope it would and that we have perfect information on the invasion.
We don't - and there is no guarantee that nothing will go wrong or that we accounted for everything.

Getting the defensive treasures hedges our bets here, allowing us to both send two Nascents to Blood Oak to reap the benefits of your plan and defend the Yuan risk-free at the same time. Perhaps more importantly, the treasures are both going to be very useful long-term.

The Gravebone Panoply is a Spirit Severing defensive artifact which will be invaluable against Late Nascents once we inevitably clash with Old Cannibal and his vassals, our the main threats to continental domination that have both more and stronger Nascents than we do.
The Chrysocolla Paints is described as having allowed 13 Nascents and 24 000 Cores to hold off 3 Spirit Severing Cultivators without losses. We cannot field that large a force - but even in the short term, two Mid Nascents and three Early Nascents backed by two hundred Cores and led by Manuel with the Stone Spear, armored in the Gravebone Panoply would allow us to punch up at the Great Circle Nascent Souls just fine.
We know how many Nascent Souls they have. We know which Nascent Souls will be the ones deployed, and while we don't know how many they will deploy I will be very surprised if they deploy more than one Mid (Ma Emperor) and two Early (the Noble Knowledge Sect Earlies).

We know the Stone Spear is a Law Creation Artifact capable of both Offense and Defense. It can stab the Sun. It can block things that should not be blocked. It can stab souls. It can block surprise Light Qi attacks. It is the single strongest artifact in the Region because it does everything a fight needs to short of choking the other dude and turning him into a slushie.

The Gravebone Panoply is a Spirit Severing Artifact and it is wasted on Manuel. It's more suited on Xinya or Kleisthenes if anything, to give her the ability to serve as taunt tank.

The Chrysocolla Paints were described as doing that for Nascent Souls back in the day, but let's keep in mind that was when the Sea wasn't dead and it hasn't been ten thousand years since it died. And as @ReaderOfFate stated, we don't have that much left. This is a fight that doesn't need the Paints, so we should avoid buying it until we need it.

With that in mind, it's time to vote.

[X] Plan -ned Suppression
-[X] Set Prices High - Hold onto the supplies for now in case the Pass cannot be reopened for half a century or more. This will cause more casualties now, but less in the long-term.
-[X] Wait, and see what else might arise.
-[X] Fortifying (The Yuan Clan) - Spend Clan manpower and soldiers to build new fortifications against outside enemies. New Arrays, help train new cultivators in lesser Formations to defend their lands, and so on. Will also strengthen a vassal or ally if chosen, and increase relations with them. Increases defenses in the chosen territory, ally, or vassal.
--[X] "It's a difficult thing to say, but the Archegetes may have invested overmuch in the gambits taking place in the Yuan clan. The Clan has often made due with less wealth, when the sweat of our Optimatoi has served well enough to create great works and fortifications. We have enough forces deployed along the breadth of the Yuan, and enough resources invested in it. Let those who are already present dig in, and reshape our newest vassals land into a bulwark to rat out the temporary problem. And make a permanent reminder to the Region just who owns that land now. A declaration the Yuans invaders are unable to ignore, a perfect bait for their Nascent souls. A Monstrous Root Threshing Domain."
-[X] Manuel - Hunt An Enemy (Yuan Clan Invasion Nascents) - Why not? Hunt down enemies, see if you can kill someone. Usually used against an opposing Nascent Soul. Potentially very dangerous.
--[X] "The Archegetes remains our most powerful combatant by a wide margin, and even in a territory lacking in his typical preparations and schemes seeded throughout it, the Yuan Clan territories have their own defenses that they can inform us of, our own assets freshly deployed there to account for, and our own Legions to frustrate and inevitably bait out enemy Nascent Souls. Kill one, it may be insufficient. Kill many, it will definitely be enough. Catch them between a thousand anvils, and a singular hammer in the Archegetes and we can bring and end to this miserable affair, and not a moment too soon."
-[X] Kleisthenes - Open Diplomatic Relations (Blood Oak Sect)
--[X] "For too long have our new neighbors to the North gone ignored. I will be having Casia assist me in opening up formal relations with the Blood Oaks to the North. Regardless of what the ongoing situation is for the rest of the Region, they're direct neighbors with the Qiguai Clan, who we know are the direct target of the Gao Clan and Shattered Time Sect. If they intend to make moves there, I would rather we not act at cross purposes there.
-[X] Xinya - Accompany and Assist Manuel in Hunting Yuan Clan Invasion Nascent Souls.
--[X] "The Archegetes can not be expected to perform his flawless preparations for combat as he normally could. However, our Third Elder possesses the necessary expertise to make up for it, as well as feed new sources of intelligence to the Archegetes in order to better prepare and execute the necessary ambushes in order to truly end this final desperate gambit by the Ma Clan, once and for all.'
-[X] Casia - Offer Peace (Blood Oak Sect) - Casia's personal ability allows her to bring harmony between people and among them. Within the Clan she can calm vassals, outside of it she can calm relations, between the Clan and her target or between any two targets. If she were permitted to use this for twenty turns unobstructed she might end the current War, so it is more useful in repairing failing relations than trying to rebuild failed ones.
--[X] "With Casia's assistance I might be able to negotiate for terms and concessions that otherwise would be utterly unthinkable, especially in the absence of the Archegetes peerless intelligence gathering capabilities to provide advantages for us to make use of. We will project Absolute Goodwill to them, and in doing so hopefully win the Blood Oaks over to our side, abandoning the Blood Path in its entirety. After that...there will only be two powers left in the Mountains, of which only one is capable of being harmful to us anymore."
-[X] Forge a Wedding Ring (Major Purchase - 2 Purchases)
-[X] Use 3 Shadow Key Points to Purchase the Earl's Insignia
-[X] Use 2 Shadow Key Points to Purchase the Fortress-Mounts
 
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Youd rather waste a one time use resource on a hypothetical Late Nascent Soul in the Ma Emperor instead of the very real Nascent Soul that is Old Cannibal?
I am assuming that if the war proves trivial, the treasure will not be used. Is that not the case? Don't these conflicts last years? Its better to have a lifeline to grasp than not.
 
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They're used when the paint is applied, not when the Formation is established.
Right but what I mean is - why would the paint be applied in a war that lasts several years at the least, if said war proves to be trivial? There is ample time to decide whether it is worth using or not - so my question, I suppose, is whether the plans are always followed to the letter or if there is some kind of sensibility override element to it.
 
Right but what I mean is - why would the paint be applied in a war that lasts several years at the least, if said war proves to be trivial? There is ample time to decide whether it is worth using or not - so my question, I suppose, is whether the plans are always followed to the letter or if there is some kind of sensibility override element to it.
Oh, simple. Because War is never trivial to the guy on the ground. Attrition of 1% doesn't seem like anything to get worked up over on our level, but when we play with the lives of tens and hundreds of thousands, the dozens to hundreds who die won't think it's trivial.

Once a fight is committed, you are going to pile every resource you have available just to win it out of the stuff you brought. And if we're not bringing it to Yuan, then we've essentially spent 2 Shadow Points for something that might be useful - which they are. But we could be building a flying doom fortress instead.

EDIT: To put it succinctly, sensibility cuts both ways. By buying the Paints, the implication is that we'll want to use them, just in case. Even if 'Just In Case' is a horribly unlikely sub-10 roll result.
 
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Fair - do note that I mentioned fighting Great Circle Nascent enemies with it though, not Spirit Severing like in the item's description. Even a modest boost to our Nascent Souls alongside tripling the power of all our Cores and allowing our Foundation cultivators to fight Core Formation sounds well worth the 2 point cost to me.
I am not sure why you think it can apply to all of our Cores.

Please note, the text states that there's enough to equip ten Legions.

The average Legion, as a reminder, is composed of one Core, a hundred Foundation level Centurions, and ten thousand Qi Condensation.

In addition, a formation of a hundred Foundation level cultivators can already fight Core Formation. What the Paints adds is endurance from the transmitted Qi, permitting a much more consistent defense. The problem is primarily one of mobility, which is to say, someone at a higher Realm can just run away, while a Formation acting at a Realm higher doesn't give you the ability to pursue. If you're fighting a defensive battle like in the battle from the description, though, that doesn't matter.

Also, a modest boost? Something on the level of a Core or two of Qi is so marginal to a Mid Nascent Soul that I'm genuinely not even sure if that would count as more than a +1 to combat rolls. Using the Paints on Manuel himself is a huge waste.

The gap between even an Early Nascent and any Core Formation cultivator is a finger-flick.

Please remember what the Paints does. To do something like even fighting a single small realm higher, we would need a sufficient quantity of the paints to transmit the required Qi to make the Formation formed relevant against a Late Nascent Soul.

The current bandwidth of the remnants just isn't enough for something like that.
 
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Note that we knew nothing of Weeping Anvil's weakness when we began diplomacy with him for the legacies come Turn 13. Then Kleisthenes just knew exactly what to threaten him with when the talks came and the actions for creating the Droplet of Rust and Ruin became available on Turn 14, which we then executed in Turn 15.
But we would not have chosen to assassinate him had we not gotten that knowledge piece.

At the end of the day while we may have in game knowledge its us that must make the risk calculations and sending manual injured to such a situation without doing everything in our power to reduce that risk is foolish.
 
I am not sure why you think it can apply to all of our Cores.

Please note, the text states that there's enough to equip ten Legions.
The average Legion, as a reminder, is composed of one Core, a hundred Foundation level Centurions, and a ten thousand Qi Condensation.
10 Cores, 1000 Foundation and 100 000 Qi Condensation probably have much more Qi than a far fewer but higher level skewed distribution.

Old Bhrigu, a Spirit Severing cultivator had merely 100 times the Qi of Manuel, a Mid Nascent Soul of comparatively absurdly lacking talent, per their "fight" description when the latter got possessed. It is very unlikely the difference between Qi > Foundation > Core is 100 times the Qi.

But even if it were, 100 000 Qi Condensation would translate into 1000 Foundation which would translate into 10 Cores. Thus, 10 legions would translate into 30 Cores worth of Qi, and this is extremely pessimistic an estimate. More likely 20/10 : 1 ratios give 310/1110 Cores worth.

Considering the cost of 2 Keys and that Occi said Manuel and other Nascents could use it, I'm extremely skeptical it wouldn't be enough to boost a few hundred Cores once or the full 100 Core Hoplite formation a few times before running out. Which at that point, that's a ~5 use consumable that gives two extra Early Nascents worth of power each time (that can't manuever like a real one) or a modest Impact boost to an actual Nascent.
 
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Why do one of the plans have all of our Nascents going north? Don't we need a few staying south to at least watch the Colossus Path?
 
But we would not have chosen to assassinate him had we not gotten that knowledge piece.

At the end of the day while we may have in game knowledge its us that must make the risk calculations and sending manual injured to such a situation without doing everything in our power to reduce that risk is foolish.
Iunno about you but I think we have? We have the Beast Tide Trap, we have the Lightbeast, we have the Stone Spear in reserve, we have Xinya and their wedding band. We have set up the situation such that their only option is to advance through extremely hardened, extremely hazardous terrain, with necessarily poor positioning because their ground forces (who are Blood Path and, like sharks, will die if they stop moving(except in their case it's not suffocation, it's starvation)) have to mash their faces against fortresses and not farmlands, and in the sheer chaos and uncertainty of that kind of battlefield it's exactly where Manuel and Xinya excel at, being able to hit and fade even better than the usual Nascent Soul, given they are Intrigue specs.

I think it's pretty indisputable that we have laid the groundwork for supporting this course of action, to a reasonable degree. But I'll assume that you think that there's more that should be done to mitigate the risk further and ensure Manuel's death is literally impossible, not just unlikely to a reasonable (that is to say, non-nat 1) extent.

To that, my response is that I just don't think it's worth the effort to bring the odds to that level. Not when it constrains our own ability to act in other fields. We can't send one Nascent Soul to the Blood Oak, because if they really are hostile then a single Nascent Soul will just get killed - at best if we sent Kleisthenes, our most experienced one, she'll 'only' get wounded. And Casia's the one who can really do Peace Things and, if not end potential hostilities, then delay them. And she's newly Ascended, she'll die. If we send a single Nascent Soul there, it's got to be Manuel - except Manuel is not only wounded, he's our knife totting boogeyman. If we bring him, the implication is that we want a fight.

And not handling the Blood Oak isn't an option either. They've been an unknown for too long and the fact that they've been an unknown this entire time is frankly a mistake on our part. This is a belligerent Blood Path power on our border - the wrong side of the border. We may have Nascent Superiority against them, but we're hardly only fighting against them. And we don't have enough Nascent Superiority to be able to keep a strong front against OC and, potentially, the Righteous Path, while also being able to keep a belligerent Blood Oak from sacking the shit out of the former Jingshen Clan core territories - which incidentally are a major part of how we're able to support so many new cultivators, grow new ones, and support this many Nascent Souls.

Ultimately if it comes down to risking Manuel's injury - a risk that has been mitigated by past and present action - and risking a belligerent Blood Oak - a risk we have not mitigated at all and frankly aren't even aware of the full extent of - then I'm much more willing to risk Manuel.
 
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