[X] [NAME] The New Confederation
[X] [FLAG] "The Fire Rises"
[X] [CENTRALIZATION] Decentralized
[X] [EXPANSION] Negotiation
[X] [RELIGION] Realmer Syncretism
[X] [EXTRA] The Realmers will be, in addition with integrating cultural practices and beliefs as the New Confederation spreads, also be tasked with vetting those practices for malign Warp influence, with resources provided to them to aid in that task.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Redshirt Army on Feb 10, 2024 at 7:45 PM, finished with 109 posts and 44 votes.


Centralized: 27
Decentralized: 16

Liberation: 22
Negotiation: 19

Realmer Syncretism: 16
Cantaran Spirituality: 14
State Secularism: 13
 
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Yeah I'm not going to fucking sugar coat it, we really are becoming a Big E clone at this point.

We're going to rule over a militaristic expansionist gov, we're a "Man of Gold" and flying very close to Big E's gold aesthetics, have a strong psyker pal, and are slowly getting a religion dedicated to us.

We're basically becoming an Emperor clone.
 
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We're going to rule over a militaristic expansionist gov,

We might not! 24 to 19 isn't exactly an insurmountable lead.

Look Redshirt putting entire ruling classes of immoral assholes into the dirt where they belong,
along with freeing the oppressed people's of their worlds that thought they would die under tyranny,
as they hear our battle cry of Liberation,
is fucking awesome and I'm tired of pretending it's not.

I mean, I can get behind that in principle especially when the situation really is black and white, and the idea of just blaring a bass-boosted Soviet Anthem while we send drop pods of killer robots against decadent feudal fucks is rad as hell, but I think that it's very easy to trip and fall off that tightrope the moment we encounter anything with some shades of grey in the mix.

There's a reason we didn't just yeet all the local nobility in our current base of power into the sun, y'know.
 
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I mean, I can get behind that in principle especially when the situation really is black and white, and the idea of just blaring a bass-boosted Soviet Anthem while we send drop pods of killer robots against decadent feudal fucks is rad as hell, but I think that it's very easy to trip and fall off that tightrope the moment we encounter anything with some shades of grey in the mix.
I mean, just as you said, picking an option doesn't lock us out of the others if we meet a Before-mind-control-retcon!Tau or alike we can just be best buds and not pressure them to join or anything. Like we will probably be with the Eldar.

Just like we will use primarily Negotiation tactics on Vareena IV/V, because we can economically/politically/technologically dominate them, to unify our star system.
Just cause we picked Liberation doesn't mean we have to conquer everyone or even the majority of the factions we meet.
I'm just showing my preference is all.

There's a reason we didn't just yeet all the local nobility in our current base of power into the sun, y'know.


There's three actually.

1. They are complete Tier 0 primitives technologically and couldn't scratch our shit if they tried.
2. We made them short term irrelevant. We subverted the population, removed the militant reactionaries by arresting them all, and removed them from all military, economical and political means of power.
3. They are long term irrelevant. Our civilization will simply rapidly outgrow the need for nobility at which point we will just abolish them from existence at our leisure. Just like we did in our world.

Now If we encounter a Tier 2/3 Age of strife Tech-Baron Oligarchy with spaceship fleets and hundreds of thousands of microchiped slave warriors the cleaning of nobility will be much, much more thorough.

Another point I would like to bring up concerns Vareena V. Given that they just launched their Not!Sputnik they're most likely in the 20th century, and as we all know nation states in the 20th century are the paragons of morality. As such I would suggest building an actual occupational force(infantry with mechanised support) to drop on any Hitler/Pol Pot wanna-be as necessary.
 
In terms of actual industrial buildup we're currently kinda swimming in capital - 82 expected capital for next turn.

That means that we can pretty easily do STC 3/3, the Arcology, the Space Elevator, Military Infrastructure, and Military Industry all at once next turn. If the cost reductions from STC 2/3 are decent, we might even be able to fit in medical expansion and a fighter squadron at the same time, without sending Prometheus to personally asteroid mine.

To go along with that expansion of industrial and military capacity, I'd like to send someone (probably Silas, since she can actually blend in) out to scout Vareena V and do two first contacts, with the heavyworld natives and with the lobster people. As we've just seen, integrating and elevating people is a relatively quick way to get really huge payoffs industrially.

I think holding off on first contact is probably kind of pointless - we haven't exactly been subtle with the infrastructure we've been putting up in our new planet, and any 20th-century equivalent techbase should be fully capable of pointing a telescope at their neighbour and noticing that some asteroids have been devoured.

So even if Vareena V is entirely populated by turbohitlers it doesn't really cost us much to introduce ourselves. Silas scouting it out will mean that we don't have to take their word for what the situation is either, so if there's any funny business we'll probably catch it.

If the situation is dire we'll have the military industry set up to churn out a bunch of fuckin mechs and go full Titanfall on their asses two turns from now, and if it's a more sedate place then we should have made a decent first impression.
 
That means that we can pretty easily do STC 3/3, the Arcology, the Space Elevator, Military Infrastructure, and Military Industry all at once next turn. If the cost reductions from STC 2/3 are decent, we might even be able to fit in medical expansion and a fighter squadron at the same time, without sending Prometheus to personally asteroid mine.
Ironically, the one problem with that may be that it runs up against our action limit. Although, if we cut back on research actions, maybe something like this can work?

Martial
[] Explore Vareena V (Sila)
[] Build Military Infrastructure on Cantara (Grachis – Ministry)

Diplomacy
[] Begin First Contact: Vareena V (Ceriox)
[] Begin First Contact: Cantaran Lobster-Men (Ceriox – Ministry)

Stewardship
[] STC (3/3) (PR-01 or Sister Amara)
[] Lay Down Arcology Foundations (Shaw)
[] Begin Work on a Space Elevator (Shaw – Ministry)
[] Expand Medical Facilities (PR-01 or Sister Amara)
[] Begin the Foundations of Military Industry (Grachis)

Learning
[] Decrypt Psionics Records (PR-01)
[] Examine the Eldar (Sila & Sister Amara – Ministry)
[] Occult Investigation (PR-01)

Anyway, if the money is there for it, I'd rather start on Repair the Prometheus rather than a Fighter Squadron, but that's something which can wait until Turn 7 formally comes out.
 
Yeah I'm not going to fucking sugar coat it, we really are becoming a Big E clone at this point.
No we are not can you people stop saying this.
We are going to run a pan-speciest democratic centrally planned state either way and the fact that I (and many others) want it to be more aggressive than you does not mean it's okay to compare us to genocidal fascists.

We're going to rule over a militaristic expansionist gov,
Well DUH I don't know how to break the news to you but likely 90% of the quest will be spent in active warfare(due to all the maluses we chose).

And if we don't wanna die we are gonna militaristicly expand all over the place.
we're a "Man of Gold" and flying very close to Big E's gold aesthetics,

Straight up not true, we and our follower have a red aesthetic like all the cool people.
Casting you as a Titan granting humanity fire isn't exactly a comparison you feel comfortable with, but the iconography of fire and red iconography they've taken to certainly is aesthetically compelling.

have a strong psyker pal,
Look Malcador is a rehabilitated chaos cultist, warcrime grandpa and recent moderator on r/atheism.

Silas on the other hand is a complete YA novel protagonist.(She's just a normal girl like all of us(except the stunning beauty) but she has powers but those powers are also a curse that have given her trauma, she was fleeing the galactic civil war when suddenly she awakes in the future!!! etc. etc.) There is no comparison.

Really we should keep our eye on her, she will revoke our main character privileges.
and are slowly getting a religion dedicated to us.
ok that one is true...

But we deserve it!/sarcasm
We're basically becoming an Emperor clone.
In short we aren't. And we will not.

So if people could stop comparing Liberation voters to literal genocidal fascists that would frankly be very nice and courteous of them.

That means that we can pretty easily do STC 3/3, the Arcology, the Space Elevator, Military Infrastructure, and Military Industry all at once next turn. If the cost reductions from STC 2/3 are decent, we might even be able to fit in medical expansion and a fighter squadron at the same time, without sending Prometheus to personally asteroid mine.
Yeah it's good to be rich but I would slot in repair ourselves finally and research sociology(we really need to catch up).
 
[X] Centralized
[X] Liberation
[X] State Secularism

With our Golden Age Tech and AI-Overlord, we'll set up a network of Warp-based Beacons or invent the Subspace Ansible tech or something to run an efficient interstellar bureaucracy.

Also how many Wounds does Prometheus have? I find it disturbing that we haven't fully repaired them yet.

@NotCaligula I have one suggestion for this quest: can you add the winning plan to the top of the update in a spoiler bracket so that we can have a quick overview of the last vote? It'd help keep the project flow summarized and help readers who don't read the discussions in between keep up.
 
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Liberation vote won't really change how we act though, It's not like it'll lock us out of negotiation in the future either, all it mainly does is give us the opportunity to instantly declare war. We can still pick and choose when and where to declare war, we're not forced into being warmongers because of it, it'll just expands our options.

As for religion vote, the Realmers are easily the best way for Prometheus to bridge the beliefs of the various people that will end up joining, and would end up as something to unify all groups. State secularism will have a hard time managing the different beliefs as opposed to the Realmers that are already syncretic.
 
Liberation vote won't really change how we act though, It's not like it'll lock us out of negotiation in the future either, all it mainly does is give us the opportunity to instantly declare war. We can still pick and choose when and where to declare war, we're not forced into being warmongers because of it, it'll just expands our options.

As for religion vote, the Realmers are easily the best way for Prometheus to bridge the beliefs of the various people that will end up joining, and would end up as something to unify all groups. State secularism will have a hard time managing the different beliefs as opposed to the Realmers that are already syncretic.
I am more worried about other fleet we will send that will react with war for stupid reasons instead of negotiations as the first measure.
People under us may indeed force us into being warmongers.
 
Well DUH I don't know how to break the news to you but likely 90% of the quest will be spent in active warfare(due to all the maluses we chose).

I think that there's a bit of a misunderstanding here.

We're inevitably going to embroiled in a ton of conflict. Against the orks, against the DEldar, against the Old One servitors, against Chaos, probably against the Necrons.

But us having a powerful military (which is indeed basically guaranteed and necessary for survival) does not implicitly mean that we have to use that military as our go-to tool for expanding our polity whenever we interact with human remnant states and neutral xenos.

And I'd very, very much prefer if we kept the robot legions as the implied last resort when negotiations break down, rather than our immediate first move.

Also how many Wounds does Prometheus have? I find it disturbing that we haven't fully repaired them yet.

6 Wounds, each individual wound takes a full action to repair and costs 10 Capital.

When that same action and 20 capital gets us a full STC stage, it should be pretty obvious why we prioritized building up an industry first - it's basically the same thing as "if given six hours to chop down a tree, spend the first four hours sharpening your axe".
 
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[X][CENTRALIZATION] Decentralized
[X][EXPANSION] Liberation
[X][RELIGION] Cantaran Spirituality
 
Another problem I see with Centralising is that it doesn't scale up very well. If we plan on getting big enough to survive, then we're going to run into more and more problems trying to handle everything ourselves.
I mean, just as you said, picking an option doesn't lock us out of the others if we meet a Before-mind-control-retcon!Tau or alike we can just be best buds and not pressure them to join or anything. Like we will probably be with the Eldar.

Just like we will use primarily Negotiation tactics on Vareena IV/V, because we can economically/politically/technologically dominate them, to unify our star system.
Just cause we picked Liberation doesn't mean we have to conquer everyone or even the majority of the factions we meet.
I'm just showing my preference is all.

I mean, just as you said, picking an option doesn't lock us out of the others if we meet a Before-mind-control-retcon!Tau or alike we can just be best buds and not pressure them to join or anything. Like we will probably be with the Eldar.

Just like we will use primarily Negotiation tactics on Vareena IV/V, because we can economically/politically/technologically dominate them, to unify our star system.
Just cause we picked Liberation doesn't mean we have to conquer everyone or even the majority of the factions we meet.
I'm just showing my preference is all.

Now If we encounter a Tier 2/3 Age of strife Tech-Baron Oligarchy with spaceship fleets and hundreds of thousands of microchiped slave warriors the cleaning of nobility will be much, much more thorough.

Another point I would like to bring up concerns Vareena V. Given that they just launched their Not!Sputnik they're most likely in the 20th century, and as we all know nation states in the 20th century are the paragons of morality. As such I would suggest building an actual occupational force(infantry with mechanised support) to drop on any Hitler/Pol Pot wanna-be as necessary.
You keep bringing up what you feel like would be the worst of the worst, and acting like we wouldn't fight them if we don't pick Liberation, when we'd be perfectly capable of fighting them once we've sounded them out. We just won't be able to start a war immediately on contact.

The black and white cases don't really need discussion, it'll likely be somewhat obvious whether we go for peaceful or forceful integration. The problem is those are going to be the outliers, more often than not it's going to be harder to decide whether a particular culture is 'bad' enough to warrant just conquering them instead of taking the slow route and trying to bring them in line via diplomacy. That is the issue with a martial focus, it means it's a lot more likely we'll deal with those shades of grey by just cutting the gordian knot, and that's not the route I want to go.
Well DUH I don't know how to break the news to you but likely 90% of the quest will be spent in active warfare(due to all the maluses we chose).

And if we don't wanna die we are gonna militaristicly expand all over the place.
That's not how it works. Yes, dealing with our drawbacks will likely involve a lot of fighting, but that doesn't mean expanding our polity needs to be done the same way.
In short we aren't. And we will not.

So if people could stop comparing Liberation voters to literal genocidal fascists that would frankly be very nice and courteous of them.
One of the big arguments we've seen the Emperor make for the Great Crusade was that he could see the incoming threats like the Orks and the Rangdan and whoever snowballing hard enough that he needed to get out there and conquer enough of humanity to be able to deal with those threats before/as and when they arose.

If you're going to get annoyed at people for being worried about seeing similarities to the IoM, then you shouldn't be making the exact same argument he did just with swapping the xenos with the Imperium itself.
 
[X][CENTRALIZATION] Decentralized
[X][EXPANSION] Negotiation

I think Decentralized works best with Negotiation, it's a pretty classic combo. Decentralized is IMO also a generally better idea, as it means the resulting state is a lot more resilient towards random shit happening like warpstorms or whatever. Which happen in 40k a lot, can't be discounted.

[X][RELIGION] Cantaran Spirituality

So, while Realmer Syncretism is fine.. I'm not so sure about the extra added. That kind of seems like a pseudo-Inqusition? As it seems like defining malign warp influence can become very problematic and ripe for running into all kinds of potential issues.

Atheism seems like it'll run into the IoM issue down the road, but it's got no votes so whatev.

Secularism seems like the best option for avoiding any pro/cons of religion, just generally by having too many competiting religions for any single one to be a problem - or benefit.

Cantaran by itself looks like a method for us to potentially get religious benefits ourselves, which is interesting.

Realmer is probably the best for integrating new peoples, but it's mode of backfiring is somewhat concerning.
 
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@HanEmpire

Out of curiosity, I decided to try to work out how many actions getting Prometheus back to their "full DAoT glory" would take.

Note that the listed timespans are tied intrinsically to the current supporting infrastructure we have - I imagine that as we get expanded orbital shipyard facilities and space elevators to lift raw materials, the impact of each individual action will go up, and thus the total duration will go down.

So this is a "if we stopped building infrastructure and started devoting all our actions to PR-01 repair as of right now, how long would it take" thing.

Hull Damage Repair:
6 Actions

Warp Drive Repair:
1 Action

Internal Monitoring Systems Repair:
1 Action

Replace Stone-Class Intelligence Complement:
10 Actions

Full Database Examination:
~18 Actions (1d4 stages per action, 9+15+20 stages to go, so there's some variance)

Full Memory Core Integration:
~10 Actions (This is just a shot in the dark, we don't know when the action chain will "finish".)

===

46 Actions, at 4 actions per year, means a full repair starting now would take about 12 years.
 
If think choosing a state religion woukd fly in the face of a negotiation based government. It not only becomes a secular negotiation but a religious one.

Secularism seems like the best option for avoiding any pro/cons of religion, just generally by having too many competiting religions for any single one to be a problem - or benefit.
It does have pros and cons actually. Too many created or kept means at least one is going to be a chaos cult because we can't keep up with policing them all and all their practices.

Edit;: It's probably the best for the negotiation combo, since it preserves religion and won't make it a negotiation point.


Realmer is a major risk by comparison a single religion with a open door policy. It integrates all beliefs so it can be corrupted. Even if we attempt to integrate everything, what happens if a lot of religions integrate at once. Then there's religions that will have opposing ideas and those we don't agree with.

Then for those that domt want to Mc to be praised as a God this changes nothing. I bet it'll become similar to the imperial cult. Where the main God is emps and below him are whatever religion you want (which in the imperial case they'll likely be angels or saints on the local level).


If we go realmers do we have ways to curtail their political power? As they're stated to be and the write in that's making them self policing they'd have quite a lot of power similar to the imperial cult.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Redshirt Army on Feb 11, 2024 at 12:05 PM, finished with 128 posts and 49 votes.


Centralized: 30
Decentralized: 18

A runaway victory for centralization.

Liberation: 25
Negotiation: 21

Still relatively close. If we do end up going Liberation, I do hope that voters don't get too fired-up about invading people who don't really deserve it.

Realmer Syncretism: 16
Cantaran Spirituality: 16
State Secularism: 16

The religion option continues to be anyone's game.

I do personally think Realmer Syncretism is probably the best option - it provides a shared communal tie that will help bond our polity together instead of leaving all the cultures as disjoint, while at the same time its syncretic nature means that local beliefs and traditions will be respected instead of brushed aside or ignored. It also means that there's an organization who's job already involves looking into the belief systems of everyone we encounter, instead of leaving any potential nastiness or subversion festering until it hits a critical threshold.
 
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Liberation: 25
Negotiation: 21

Still relatively close. If we do end up going Liberation, I do hope that voters don't get too fired-up about invading people who don't really deserve it.
I'm worried this will make us try to liberate a Imperial world instead of trying to negotiate with them first. Which depending on how far along the great crusade is would be really bad for us.
 
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I think that the weaknesses of Realmer Syncretism are emphasized with Centralization with how it will be essentially impossible to disempower any runaway political faction.

Honestly not a fan of Centralization generally. It's peaks might be higher than Decentralization, but it involves quite a lot more time and work to get to those peaks. Time and work from us that's already facing stern competition from everything else we want to do. There's already like, what, 30 to 40 actions we want to do just in regular turns alone?
 
The AI ban makes sense when you consider it almost ended the human race. It's like someone building nukes and putting everyone in danger.

The must worship the Emperor came from the religious traitor son and got adopted afterwards.

The xeno law makes sense when you consider most of the aliens encountered have been evil. The ones that seem peaceful have been tricky and sometimes their DNA strains can cause them to dominate humans if spread. Think Tyranids in that case.

The acceptable ones can become sanctioned Xenos so not all die. The tilt issue can happen under any system of government. The difference is how one goes about it. Think star war and how the outer rim is treated even in a republic.

Problem is all of this were blanket terms, tau have small scale AI and they havent a full scale robot war.(and by the way the imperium have nuke and they have use it, quite a damn lot).

And yet see the interex and the diasporex and quite others. there is not such thing as santioned xenos in the imperium and las time it was just to dry them because their blood have rejuvinating properties. Plus horus rising talk about other zXe

The workship of the emperor happen before lorgar, he just grab all of them and transform it into something else, even Malcador tell the emperor that for all his insistance in creating a empire that outlive instead it creating one that really too much on him.

The idea the heresy happen because just otuside factor is kinda false, there was weakness on them that chaos exploit and they can very well do so.

About liberation:

I mean I feel a lot of voters want to eat their cake and have it too "I want a expansionist faction that by necesity have to be very militaristic but it wont be bad because we will tell everyone they can be our friend by pure good goodness in our hearts and just kill the meanes who are bad because we kinda determinate it can be, we members can have freedom to do what they want except when they piss off which means they deserve what they got"

it is...contradictory quite telling and it not surprise many here feel that we are saying "we want the great crusade but unlike their golden dictator, OUR golden dictator mean it"

With religion is the issue: some religion will be vector of chaos, that is going to happen and yes, they will workship your main chararter because its kinda what happen when you show up out of nowhere, let just be clear. Also we chose decentralization but HOW much decentrlization.

Also we dont have astronomicon neither navigators, meaning we have issue along the road.
 
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