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Starship Design Bureau

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Counterpoint: Going bigger has c h o c n k y vibes. And we can probably spin going maximum internal space into getying more tactical score somehow.
 
I know I'm usually the guy tooting the "science" and "exploration" trumpet, but if we are building this as a warship intended to strike terror into the hearts of our enemies, we want it to be as fast as possible whilst having the best armament and defences possible. This gives it the maximum freedom of action to strike with impunity, chase down inferior foes, and outrun superior ones; the essence of naval fighting.

That isn't some new idea I'm inventing here or anything; it's naval doctrine going back to before the invention of the cannon.

Derpmind said:
Counterpoint: Going bigger has c h o c n k y vibes. And we can probably spin going maximum internal space into getying more tactical score somehow.
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Well, fair enough, but I would note for the sake of fairness that this has never been offered in our Internals subvote before. The only way is if an option in the Tactical vote had space requirements as a downside, but let's be real... we have already got space to spare in the saucer, and I would bet with you at ten to one odds that the voters would still go for it and accept the risk of the ship only having an A- in Science.
 
Skippy said:
In reality, the Sovereign class is going to be asked to do exploration missions for most of its service life. Making it better at that job is directly useful, and making the fastest possible ship makes it the best demonstrator of the Federation's technological prowess, able to project power further afield. It can be the big stick that we wave in front of prospective allies and enemies of the Federation.

However, if we want to focus on only the military aspects, then being faster also makes it an objectively better warship. A faster battleship can get to emergencies quicker, outrun enemy forces, and chase down foes. There is a reason that HMS Dreadnought redefined naval combat because it both outgunned and could outrun any battleship in service. It means your enemy has nowhere to run.

Adding extra internal space on top of the additional internal space we already have from the Endeavour-type saucer is great if we want to pack in more science labs and Cetacean Ops, but does literally nothing for the Sovereign as a warship. Giving up speed is actively counter to every naval thinker since Themistocles, who have grasped the basic truism that a faster warship is a vastly more dangerous warship.
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Counterpoint, the American Standard class. A battleship that out runs its escorts is going to be in trouble. Especially since we took the slow option for the saucer, speed doesn't really seem to be a priority for this design.
 
good lord what an absolute fucking chonker of a ship already

[X] Streamlined Hull (Warp Efficiency)
 
Convincing arguments. While in the 'real' canon ships always move at the speed of plot, getting to hotspots faster is very important. Especially since the Borg have a huge lead on us in that area; we need to narrow that gap as much as we can.

[X] Streamlined Hull (Warp Efficiency)
 
luckless21 said:
But that doesn't really matter for the federation because outside of important stations or planets their ships mostly operate independently.
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Unless it's a war we're fighting...
View: https://youtu.be/3SDNWRDtzEI?si=mQURvhj3erkqiRQx


View: https://youtu.be/jQ_UJ7TCe2k?si=A3kuBaL0bRkbK0yK

When operating independently, Sublight speed and agility would seem to be desirable, but we chose to sacrifice that meaning we're more likely to need to rely on escorts.
 
Kartr_Kana said:
Counterpoint, the American Standard class. A battleship that out runs its escorts is going to be in trouble. Especially since we took the slow option for the saucer, speed doesn't really seem to be a priority for this design.
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Fair point, but I think we want this to be more like our HMS Dreadnought or Iowa Class.

If a Sovereign is operating in a battlefleet with other slower ships, then it can slow down to their cruising speed. However, as the "first responder" to many emergencies, chasing down pirates or aggressors against the Federation, or acting as a terrifying solo raider able to strike largely with impunity at the enemy underbelly, more cruising speed is an unalloyed good.

The saucer we've chosen means we are less manoeuvrable at impulse, which is our tactical speed, but that's a different thing from our strategic speed. Our ship can be a a bit of a "flying brick", but a big hulking monster which can always outrun you is an utterly terrifying foe to face. It put the enemy in the position of von Spee at the Falklands - unable to run, and unable to fight.
 
Skippy said:
In reality, the Sovereign class is going to be asked to do exploration missions for most of its service life. Making it better at that job is directly useful, and making the fastest possible ship makes it the best demonstrator of the Federation's technological prowess, able to project power further afield. It can be the big stick that we wave in front of prospective allies and enemies of the Federation.

However, if we want to focus on only the military aspects, then being faster also makes it an objectively better warship. A faster battleship can get to emergencies quicker, outrun enemy forces, and chase down foes. There is a reason that HMS Dreadnought redefined naval combat because it both outgunned and could outrun any battleship in service. It means your enemy has nowhere to run.

Adding extra internal space on top of the additional internal space we already have from the Endeavour-type saucer is great if we want to pack in more science labs and Cetacean Ops, but does literally nothing for the Sovereign as a warship. Giving up speed is actively counter to every naval thinker since Themistocles, who have grasped the basic truism that a faster warship is a vastly more dangerous warship.
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Problem with that, is that efficiency doesn't seem like it will influence max safe sprint speed, which is the part that effects outrunning and chasing opponents, the only part efficiency will effect is max Efficient cruise speed, which would mostly affect speed of covering long distances, rather than fleeing or chasing or quick positioning. The streamlined hull would be the better choice for say a long range science vessel like our endeavor, but will not have much affect on combat usages of the ship. Where-as extra internal space will allow us more leeway to pick space consuming tactical options/prototypes without falling in to the Defiant trap where as long as there are not active wars on it is abandoned.
 
Kartr_Kana said:
Unless it's a war we're fighting...
View: https://youtu.be/3SDNWRDtzEI?si=mQURvhj3erkqiRQx


View: https://youtu.be/jQ_UJ7TCe2k?si=A3kuBaL0bRkbK0yK

When operating independently, Sublight speed and agility would seem to be desirable, but we chose to sacrifice that meaning we're more likely to need to rely on escorts.
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Please stop. This is getting annoying because wartime needs are not peacetime needs, and bluntly, Federation design even in PIC didn't show a reliance on escorts, since the fleets were either a single design, or three related sub designs, or an ad-hoc thing. (Or..whatever S3 did...)

We also didn't choose to sacrifice them, we just didn't prioritize them, which is not the same thing.
 
ShuTheDragon said:
Problem with that, is that efficiency doesn't seem like it will influence max safe sprint speed, which is the part that effects outrunning and chasing opponents, the only part efficiency will effect is max Efficient cruise speed, which would mostly affect speed of covering long distances, rather than fleeing or chasing or quick positioning. The streamlined hull would be the better choice for say a long range science vessel like our endeavor, but will not have much affect on combat usages of the ship. Where-as extra internal space will allow us more leeway to pick space consuming tactical options/prototypes without falling in to the Defiant trap where as long as there are not active wars on it is abandoned.
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It depends on the timescale.

A higher efficient cruise speed means we can outrun or chase down enemies over longer distances. This is very relevant over the long haul, and provides superior strategic mobility. It's not uncommon for chases in Star Trek to play out over hours rather than minutes. Keep in mind that this ship will likely have extremely good sensors because of all the astrogation equipment it will have, so it will be able to see prey a long distance away, making it a terrifying persistence hunter.

We absolutely want a high sprint speed too, though. They're both objectively great to have for a dreadnought.
 
Skippy said:
It depends on the timescale.

A higher efficient means we can outrun or chase down enemies over longer distances. This is very relevant over the long haul, and provides superior strategic mobility. It's not uncommon for chases in Star Trek to play out over hours rather than minutes - keep in mind that this ship will likely have extremely good sensors because of all the astrogation equipment it will have, so it will be able to see prey a long distance away.

We absolutely want a high sprint speed too, though. They're both objectively great to have for a dreadnought.
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Max sprint time for ships in star trek is often half a day or more, and those chases you are talking about usually range from slightly below the max sprint to above it, they are almost never closer to the efficient velocity than the max sprint velocity. And I agree that efficient velocity is also really good to have, but we are already doing better on that in our current gen ships compared to cannon ones, so I was saying I think we should focus elsewhere as we already have that area covered to an extent.
 
ShuTheDragon said:
Max sprint time for ships in star trek is often half a day or more, and those chases you are talking about usually range from slightly below the max sprint to above it, they are almost never closer to the efficient velocity than the max sprint velocity. And I agree that efficient velocity is also really good to have, but we are already doing better on that in our current gen ships compared to cannon ones, so I was saying I think we should focus elsewhere as we already have that area covered to an extent.
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So I guess you guys are saying that we need, sufficient velocity?
 
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