[X] Vengeance

Wow, just found this, at the very end. Had no idea Rhiaku had an active story going. Last I read was the end of Even Further Beyond, must have missed the opening in my alerts. Thought he'd left the site.

Anyway, never compromise.
 
And without @Wolfy here to call me out on it, let me be even more clear; I am in fact saying that Freedom will accomplish the goal of Vengeance (well, the most ubercosmically relevant one), committing one of the highest sins of quest-related arguing.
How foolish, to assume that the bad guy is dead without seeing their body...

In general Freedom has close to chance of getting to HCB because:
  • Least relevant but still relevant, power type EFBs would increase our chance of making it to HCB according to Rihaku, which means that raw power matter when it comes to overall chance of getting there. Vengeance gives us a ton of extremely powerful Advancements Freedom doesn't get to have, most important of which would be Inheritance, of course
  • Not having Apo means that it is much harder to find relevant foes, which is very important since HCB requires us to get to "infinite 10+ picks" realm, to say nothing of our build being build around farming Apo as much as possible to begin with. This also impacts timescale of events, time being fuzzy at these powerlevels, as Vengeance Hunger will level exponentially harder thanks to Apo
  • Most importantly, when it comes to HCB climb waifus Haeliel* vastly outshines Ca*herine, especially when it comes to Apo
And of course, Progression. Freedom does have some more Accursed Favor which act as additional get our of jail free card, however that amount of Accursed Favor is just not worth it in absolute terms given value of Favor vs Progression alone in terms of Curses you need to take.

*Inheritor gives us additional Gisena++ and Haeliel++ meaning that Vengeance actually gets us:
+++++++Gisena, +++++Haeliel, ++Accursed Favor
So 5 Haeliel Favor and 2 Accursed Favor vs 10 Accursed Favor
It is possible that some other Forebear Advancements give Accursed Favor, however I would have to check.

E: short search shows nothing like that, sadly
 
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I think there's a lot of argumentation for the idea that vengeance is some kind of trap option that will end with the accursed being hindered by the tyrant reborn. I think that argument escapes the spirit of the discussion and the options presented. We already have a profound choice to make, there is no reason to fear monger about the hidden faults of Vengeance.

The choice is simple, do we rest and accept a happy ending, or continue fighting with a high chance of it being futile? We have 1 in a hundred odds of doing something truly impactful on the largest scale possible, in exchange for giving up true happiness and fulfillment. I do not see the Hunger we have created with the influence of his companions and his mentor Haeliel turning against the accursed.

Comparing the two options, vengeance is simply the type of option we've picked all quest. Hunger takes on the heaviest odds, and through all of his might age and treachery he rises ever onward. To quit at the peak of the quest would be highly unsatisfying. We'd be sacrificing everything we've worked towards for an option we rejected in the beginning. Hunger already had a choice between happiness and the chance to have a true impact. We made the choice for vengeance already. He chose something meaningful, then fought tooth and nail to keep going forward. If we reject that now at the height of our victory, then that choice is hollow.
 
Ah, that was a good stalemate.

Back to war.
Comparing the two options, vengeance is simply the type of option we've picked all quest. Hunger takes on the heaviest odds, and through all of his might age and treachery he rises ever onward. To quit at the peak of the quest would be highly unsatisfying. We'd be sacrificing everything we've worked towards for an option we rejected in the beginning. Hunger already had a choice between happiness and the chance to have a true impact. We made the choice for vengeance already. He chose something meaningful, then fought tooth and nail to keep going forward. If we reject that now at the height of our victory, then that choice is hollow.
Or perhaps the quest ending because he makes a different choice makes it the perfect option for it to end on? As a culmination, Vengeance is mediocre. It's identical in moral and ethical vicissitude to everything that came before, and thus there is no conclusion to it. By acknowledging previous trends without attempting to collate their implications, Vengeance makes itself hollow.
 
Comparing the two options, vengeance is simply the type of option we've picked all quest. Hunger takes on the heaviest odds, and through all of his might age and treachery he rises ever onward. To quit at the peak of the quest would be highly unsatisfying. We'd be sacrificing everything we've worked towards for an option we rejected in the beginning. Hunger already had a choice between happiness and the chance to have a true impact. We made the choice for vengeance already. He chose something meaningful, then fought tooth and nail to keep going forward. If we reject that now at the height of our victory, then that choice is hollow.

To me, Vengeance is the hollow choice. It's the choice where Hunger throws himself back into another war, back into strife and suffering, for something that he will most likely never actually obtain. It's the choice that sacrifices the efforts we've made this entire quest to keep him alive and give him a good ending. It's the choice where the living out the ideal of what the world should be is thrown aside in favor of the ruthless pragmatism of what gets the ideal world fastest, regardless of the human costs along the way.

It ends the quest on a question mark. Did Hunger succeed? Probably not, but we can't know for sure. His dalliance of a season never came to an end, he never got the happiness he deserved for all his hard work. Instead there is war for countless eons, with an unknown outcome.

With Freedom, we can walk away knowing that we did succeed for certain on one thing. We gave Hunger a life, a family, enough power that his remaining burdens are not threatening anymore. A chance to know peace, to fish with his child and not have the lurking threat of the Bane of Heroes ready to ruin things for him again.

In short, Vengeance is fundamentally unsatisfying as an ending. It demonstrates that he hasn't really changed since the beginning of the quest - if anything, he's gotten worse, since he's now willing to betray the Accursed. (And make no mistake - failing to do the favor he promised the Accursed is a betrayal. You can argue it's a justified one, but a betrayal for good reasons is still a betrayal). Freedom at least shows that Hunger has learned to value his own life, his happiness, his loved ones. Vengeance Hunger values only the goal.

What an empty existence that would be.
 
To me, Vengeance is the hollow choice. It's the choice where Hunger throws himself back into another war, back into strife and suffering, for something that he will most likely never actually obtain. It's the choice that sacrifices the efforts we've made this entire quest to keep him alive and give him a good ending. It's the choice where the living out the ideal of what the world should be is thrown aside in favor of the ruthless pragmatism of what gets the ideal world fastest, regardless of the human costs along the way.

It ends the quest on a question mark. Did Hunger succeed? Probably not, but we can't know for sure. His dalliance of a season never came to an end, he never got the happiness he deserved for all his hard work. Instead there is war for countless eons, with an unknown outcome.

With Freedom, we can walk away knowing that we did succeed for certain on one thing. We gave Hunger a life, a family, enough power that his remaining burdens are not threatening anymore. A chance to know peace, to fish with his child and not have the lurking threat of the Bane of Heroes ready to ruin things for him again.

In short, Vengeance is fundamentally unsatisfying as an ending. It demonstrates that he hasn't really changed since the beginning of the quest - if anything, he's gotten worse, since he's now willing to betray the Accursed. (And make no mistake - failing to do the favor he promised the Accursed is a betrayal. You can argue it's a justified one, but a betrayal for good reasons is still a betrayal). Freedom at least shows that Hunger has learned to value his own life, his happiness, his loved ones. Vengeance Hunger values only the goal.

What an empty existence that would be.

Let's be very clear about a few things here. Number one, while victory is unlikely that does not mean impossible. One could argue that our very survival to this point was unlikely. And yet we have thrived beyond what most would ever dream. Is it possibly that hunger commits to making an impact and fails? Of course, for no course in life is certain in victory. And yet to not try at all is to remove all chances of success.

I dislike this narrative that Vengeance is a "betrayal" of the Accursed, when at heart it is an option about choosing to fight alongside him. Freedom is a betrayal of the Accursed and the help he granted us, it's simply one that he approves of. We choose to not do everything in our power to help him, in exchange for a comfy life without any struggle or heartache. How could that be anything but a betrayal for the man who pulled us from the abyss?

Hunger has changed from the beginning of the quest, that does not mean his conviction should. Freedom would be a betrayal of Hungers driving force, of his unshakeable will. It would cripple his defining characteristics for a half victory, one that we the voters can feel good about. Because to risk for something greater is too scary.
 
I think there's a lot of argumentation for the idea that vengeance is some kind of trap option that will end with the accursed being hindered by the tyrant reborn. I think that argument escapes the spirit of the discussion and the options presented. We already have a profound choice to make, there is no reason to fear monger about the hidden faults of Vengeance.
If that was truly the case, then why does the Accursed bring up that very possibility as a case for Freedom?
Can you really say that the fault is 'hidden' when it is explicitly brought up, not merely in point form or buried beneath paragraphs, but outright as the primary descriptive text for an option?
 
If that was truly the case, then why does the Accursed bring up that very possibility as a case for Freedom?
Can you really say that the fault is 'hidden' when it is explicitly brought up, not merely in point form or buried beneath paragraphs, but outright as the primary descriptive text for an option?

There is nothing in that statement that says anything about probability. For all we know, there could be a one in a trillion chance that Hunger rejects everything we've done for him character wise and betrays both the Accursed and Haeliel, and the Accursed statement would mean the exact same thing. By laying down arms, we remove the possibility entirely. To sit here and drum up issues about how "oh Vengeance will assuredly see us betray all of our values," is a clear misreading of the context behind the statement for voting support. It was, at best, a side comment. The key point about Freedom is that the Accursed simply wants us to rest for OUR benefit, not his.
 
The key point about Freedom is that the Accursed simply wants us to rest for OUR benefit, not his.

Is doing something for Hunger's benefit such a bad thing? Is his happiness truly so worthless to you that it's not even worth considering?

And you assert that the Accursed doesn't get anything out of Freedom... Have you thought that maybe the Accursed might, you know, get the satisfaction of having helped someone? Of having succeeded, in a small way, in his goal to make a kinder world? Freedom is a victory of the Accursed ideals. You can argue that such a small victory is worth sacrificing in order to have a chance at a larger victory... But the favor totals indicate that the Accursed thinks differently. And frankly I'm glad he does, we get enough of that "ends justify the means" BS from other sources in media. A man in power looking out for the little guy is refreshing.
 
There is nothing in that statement that says anything about probability. For all we know, there could be a one in a trillion chance that Hunger rejects everything we've done for him character wise and betrays both the Accursed and Haeliel, and the Accursed statement would mean the exact same thing. By laying down arms, we remove the possibility entirely. To sit here and drum up issues about how "oh Vengeance will assuredly see us betray all of our values," is a clear misreading of the context behind the statement for voting support. It was, at best, a side comment. The key point about Freedom is that the Accursed simply wants us to rest for OUR benefit, not his.
Yet.. consider the text of Freedom:
[ ] Freedom - "Once you proscribed to pay me back for the powers I had imparted on you. Do me this favor, old foe: rest. Let me never again be forced to take up arms against you...

…It was a difficult enough fight the first time."
How else can one read this statement of the Accursed explicating a wish not to fight the Forebear again?
Could one confidently say that it is a side comment when the words occur directly after the option?

As to probability, are you not assigning an exact probability value of 0 in the absence of clear statistical odds provided by discarding the possibility? Would it not be equally fair -or unfair- to assign absolute certainty in the absence of strict probability?

How certain are you that the Accursed wishes us to rest is a purely selfless desire? How much leeway does an entity such as the Accursed even have for pure altruism?
As a matter of fact, if our first assumption that it is a purely selfless desire, then is it not in itself assertion that the option is best for Hunger regardless of actual value to the Accursed?
 
Is doing something for Hunger's benefit such a bad thing? Is his happiness truly so worthless to you that it's not even worth considering?

And you assert that the Accursed doesn't get anything out of Freedom... Have you thought that maybe the Accursed might, you know, get the satisfaction of having helped someone? Of having succeeded, in a small way, in his goal to make a kinder world? Freedom is a victory of the Accursed ideals. You can argue that such a small victory is worth sacrificing in order to have a chance at a larger victory... But the favor totals indicate that the Accursed thinks differently. And frankly I'm glad he does, we get enough of that "ends justify the means" BS from other sources in media. A man in power looking out for the little guy is refreshing.

Well it depends on how you view it. In a narrative sense, we are not the one making the decision, hunger is. If Hunger chooses Freedom, he is making a selfish decision to abandon the Accursed in his battles. To pretend that that option is Hunger repaying his debt to the Accursed is laughable, especially if with the same hand you paint Vengeance as the true betrayal.

Satisfaction means little when you wage a war for a better world. Hunger as I read him is not the type of man to stand down when he can make a real difference. To pretend that the Accursed benefits more from Freedom is similarly absurd, Vengeance sees hunger actively work to achieve his goals with the might of the Forebear and the Lathe of Heaven behind him. The satisfaction of a happy ending simply cannot compare.


Yet.. consider the text of Freedom:

How else can one read this statement of the Accursed explicating a wish not to fight the Forebear again?
Could one confidently say that it is a side comment when the words occur directly after the option?

As to probability, are you not assigning an exact probability value of 0 in the absence of clear statistical odds provided by discarding the possibility? Would it not be equally fair -or unfair- to assign absolute certainty in the absence of strict probability?

How certain are you that the Accursed wishes us to rest is a purely selfless desire? How much leeway does an entity such as the Accursed even have for pure altruism?
As a matter of fact, if our first assumption that it is a purely selfless desire, then is it not in itself assertion that the option is best for Hunger regardless of actual value to the Accursed?

I'm not assigning a probability value of 0, I'm saying that everything outside of a vague comment from the accursed points to the fact that it is not likely in any way. I'm making an informed assumption on the chances of that scenario happening and defining it as extremely unlikely. You are taking that comment and expanding it into many assumptions that have little grounding in the narrative. The defense of that is that "well the Accursed said it could happen", which I pointed out does not mean it is at all likely. Just that it is possible.

Also just because an option is good for Hunger overall does not mean it is A. The choice I think he would make, or B. The choice he SHOULD make.
 
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Is doing something for Hunger's benefit such a bad thing? Is his happiness truly so worthless
We've already got an Epilogue where the main character luxuriated in a hedonic daze beyond mortal imagining. A Day in Paradise was great, but I don't see any need to ask Rihaku for another 2,500 words about how the sublime sun dappled fishing spot has caused Hunger to reminisce about the previous eternity of happiness with the Maiden.

I signed on to the quest to pilot Hunger to the Victorious Tomorrow, against all challengers. Freedom doesn't feel like a victory. It feels like quitting the game and taking our toys with us. It feels like Apo played too rough and Hunger is backing down.

There have been a lot of words from the opposition about odds, but the Forebear didn't care about odds. High Cursebearers must pass an eternity of 10+ pick fights - things that should by rights kill them, which are defeated nonetheless.

Haeliel walked the Ordinal Spiral and found herself at the apex of creation, able to stand alongside the Accursed as a Hero, someone who can really matter. That's what I want for Hunger. I want Hunger to make a stand and say there is no compromise with the enemy. The Crowning Curse cannot take him off the board. He will deliver his Vengeance to the Hidden Ones.
 
*Sorry for posting a story update in this CYOA thread.
Dear all, sorry for interupting your story discussion interupting a CYOA thread with a CYOA.
As I have finished this rather late, I can merely hope this small gift will grant the protagonist some measure of happiness.
Here are The Clone Wars CYO RTS and the Devotion DLC

(I followed this quest in the beginning, but was too intimidated to vote. Then I followed the CYOAs being posted, but still didn't dare to post. Now, I finally have something to contribute, and it's already over. I'm not sure what to feel about that.)
 
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We've already got an Epilogue where the main character luxuriated in a hedonic daze beyond mortal imagining. A Day in Paradise was great, but I don't see any need to ask Rihaku for another 2,500 words about how the sublime sun dappled fishing spot has caused Hunger to reminisce about the previous eternity of happiness with the Maiden.
Seram's interlude was hardly worth repeating either. Endless progression is interesting as a genre conceit, but in snapshot form it's incredibly dry.
 
Freedom is a betrayal of the Accursed and the help he granted us, it's simply one that he approves of.
I feel like if you have to qualify a statement about how something is a betrayal of someone with "even though the betrayed person approve of the action" then you're clearly misusing the term betrayal. If someone, in full knowledge of the consequences (and the Accursed has a far better idea of the exact consequences than we do...), give their explicit approval to an action, there is no reasonable definition of the term "betrayal" for which taking that action would count as a betrayal.

And in this case, the Accursed isn't just giving his approval to Freedom, he's actively calling in a favor, to ask Hunger to pick that option!
The key point about Freedom is that the Accursed simply wants us to rest for OUR benefit, not his.
As stated by Rihaku in the Discord:

R' — 06/08/2023 10:20 PM
You are free to read into the Accursed's decision however you like. But it is rare that he does things for only one reason.
The actions of one such as he are not carelessly expended

so, chances are, the Accursed has multiple good reason for asking Hunger to pick Freedom and it's not just for Hunger's benefit.
 
I feel like if you have to qualify a statement about how something is a betrayal of someone with "even though the betrayed person approve of the action" then you're clearly misusing the term betrayal. If someone, in full knowledge of the consequences (and the Accursed has a far better idea of the exact consequences than we do...), give their explicit approval to an action, there is no reasonable definition of the term "betrayal" for which taking that action would count as a betrayal.

And in this case, the Accursed isn't just giving his approval to Freedom, he's actively calling in a favor, to ask Hunger to pick that option!

As stated by Rihaku in the Discord:

R' — 06/08/2023 10:20 PM
You are free to read into the Accursed's decision however you like. But it is rare that he does things for only one reason.
The actions of one such as he are not carelessly expended

so, chances are, the Accursed has multiple good reason for asking Hunger to pick Freedom and it's not just for Hunger's benefit.

I mean it gets into the minutiae of what a betrayal constitutes, but freedom definitely puts hungers own happiness and comfort over the success of the accursed. I have my opinions on WHY the accursed prefers Freedom, but I'll admit that understanding the thinking of a being so far beyond the bounds of normal power scaling is an exercise in futility. That goes both ways though. Which is why the explicit favor for the accursed doesn't really sway my judgment. Especially when Vengeance still offers Accursed favor. If Vengeance is really so awful that it would result in Hunger betraying him, why does the Accursed still approve of it?
 
Let's not forget that Freedom states that Hunger might go on adventure one day again. The way I see it, it's a long break, where Hunger finally learns to live for himself for a good while and becomes more than an echo of the forebear. But there is no telling how the future will go.
 
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As a general rule, throughout the quest, Accursed favor has almost exactly 1 to 1 corresponded to mitigation, especially unusual mitigation and double especially mitigation that turns the curses into advantages somehow, or bypasses their effects completely. The sole exception thus far has been OOC stuff.

This final vote is unusual in many ways. I presume the Vengeance option gets Accursed Favor because gaining every single Forebear's Blade advancement gives us some mitigation somewhere - I'd have to check Patreon to be sure of this hypothesis. If there is no such advancement, it could be because Hunger is dedicating himself to removing the Tyrant's Doom entirely, even if he can't do that right now.

Why Freedom grants so much Accursed favor, more then Fisher King, and much more then Serendipity or Blood Halo did, is a mystery.
 
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As a general rule, throughout the quest, Accursed favor has almost exactly 1 to 1 corresponded to mitigation, especially unusual mitigation and double especially mitigation that turns the curses into advantages somehow, or bypasses their effects completely. The sole exception thus far has been OOC stuff.

This final vote is unusual in many ways. I presume the Vengeance option gets Accursed Favor because gaining every single Forebear's Blade advancement gives us some mitigation somewhere - I'd have to check Patreon to be sure of this hypothesis. If there is no such advancement, it could be because Hunger is dedicating himself to removing the Tyrant's Doom entirely, even if he can't do that right now.

Why Freedom grants so much Accursed favor, more then Fisher King, and much more then Serendipity or Blood Halo did, is a mystery.

You're forgetting about all of the fishing related advancements (Hungers one consistent enjoyable hobby), that gave disproportionate Accursed favor. If you look at it through the lens that the Accursed does not want his cursebearers to suffer, those discrepancies start to make sense. Same with freedom, which is Hunger essentially stepping away and living a happy life, the Accursed is happy that Hunger gets his happy ending. But that does not mean it is the best path forward, it is simply the easiest one.
 
You're forgetting about all of the fishing related advancements (Hungers one consistent enjoyable hobby), that gave disproportionate Accursed favor.

Name one fishing advancement other then exactly Fisher King that grants Accursed favor. Actually, name one fishing advancement other then Fisher King period, aside from the one joke artifact vote early in the quest.

And Fisher King, mind you, grants favor because it allows Hunger to turn off the Decimator's Affliction for indefinite periods of time, on short notice. Sure it comes with some other minor curses, but being able to blink off a major curse when it's inconvenient is a big deal. It evens comes with some ability to turn the curse to Hunger's advantage, something the Accursed historically likes. There's ample reasons for Fisher King to grant Accursed favor that have nothing to do with Hunger's feelings.
 
Honestly, Accursed in this case may just prefer a safer play, where Hunger slowly accures power over the ages and weakens the Curses that way. You can't win the game by always going for maximum risk.
 
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