- Location
- Europe
To be fair, I also simp for Haeliel. If the Accursed wasn't calling in his favor I'd be voting vengeance, for the same reasons I was willing to risk a five pick maiden, even.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Magical_Duck
The One Who Quacks
- Location
- A Pond
- Pronouns
- Duck
"Quac Qu Q Qua Quack Qua Quack Quack?"
Is such your Ambition, or the Accursed's?
I'm pretty sure he beat you to the punch.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Then maybe we shouldn't turn him back into the Forebear. This whole thing is classic Shiny baiting. I don't trust Vengeance, and I don't think Apocryphal is intimidated by Hunger. Haeliel is Stage VIi and it's still having gos at her. Which tells me Freedom is a unique thing even by HCB standards.
Yeah, everything from "I could empower your companion but they might explode!" to her blessing pushing us further into Forebear Contamination to her +s always being with things that make Hunger embrace ruin makes me very suspicious. A + from Haeliel is the opposite of an endorsement for me. What if her high level Apo mitigation involves setting up tyrants and heroes for big dramatic fights? She likes us because we're the tyrant and this is the moment we lean into outright villainy, not because we're somehow the hero.
I voted for Freedom because for some time now I've been pushing for Hunger to reject the mental contamination that now consumes him so he can be his own person, unshackled from the tragedies of the past. This is his last chance to be something new in a universe that seems bound to replay the same dramas eternally. That's making the victorious world more real, now. That's worth any amount of abstract theoretical future curse mitigation in some cosmic struggle.
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- Location
- 1
I observe you've ignored the freedom argument 'The Accursed explicitly asked for this, and Hunger owes him one, and it's his right to decide what he wants to spend his debt on if the payment is not so onerous Hunger'd prefer this all not happen to begin with'.
- Location
- Louisiana
This is an insane take. She's literally the Seraph of Heroism. Are you listening to yourself? That's some severe extrapolation on a character that we just acknowledged has not gotten much screen time.
The essence of heroism is self sacrifice. Vengeance is the self sacrificial heroism option, where Hunger places more burdens on himself for the greater good. Therefore, Haeliel pluses. It's really that simple.
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
I'm thinking about new Ineptitude builds to write an omake for, and I've started renovating the Atinashasyeshvara build to see if I can make it something more functional and interesting. Here's what I've got so far.
The Bearer of the Bands
[ ] Hard Mode: Begin with 3 Points and 1 Seal.
[ ] Hyperion [7 Points, 1 Seal]
[ ] Wicked [+5 Points]
[ ] 5: The Chariot. [+1 Seals]
[ ]8: Mutilated. [+1 Seal] 4: Procession. [+2 Seals]
[ ] 7: Perchance. [+1 Seal]
[ ] 1: Null Pointer. (Hero's Journey) [+1 Seal]
[ ] Reflection [2 Seals] (The Living Host)
[ ] Party [1 Seal] (Reflection (The Sunset's Seneschal))
[ ] Shroud of the Briarthorn [3 Points]
[ ] Feather of Favor [2 Seals] (Turbocharged Shroud of the Briarthorn)
[ ] Epic [+2 Points, Requires Hard or Dalliance Mode]
-[ ] Valiant Blessing
The Living Host
[ ] Hard Mode: Begin with 3 Points and 1 Seal
[ ] The Optimizer [+2 Points]
[ ] Paramount [+2 Points, Special]
[ ] Impulse [+5 Points] (Touch)
[ ] Hero's Journey [+7 Points]
[ ]2: Void Dragon. [+1 Seal] 4: Procession. [+3 Seals]
[ ] 10: Debt. [+1 Seal]
[ ] 8: Mutilated. [+1 Seal]
[ ] 3: Jackpot. You receive $1,000,000 and may make no further rolls in the Casino. [+2 Seals]
[ ] Qilin [5 Points]
-[ ] Hidden Dragon [{2} Seals]
[ ] Kalymitous Runes [6 Points]
[ ] Stone Rings [7 Points]
[ ] Feather of Favor [2 Seals] (Turbocharged Runic Bands, Turbocharged Static)
[ ] Static [2 Points]
[ ] Exponential [4 Seals] I - III (Save Slots)
[ ] Epic [+2 Points, Requires Hard or Dalliance Mode]
-[ ] Blessing of the Lone Wolf (Kalymitous Runes + Stone Rings = Runic Bands)
The Sunset's Seneschal
[ ] Hard Mode: Begin with 3 Points and 1 Seal.
[ ] The Optimizer [+2 Points]
[ ] Nemesis [+5 Points]
[ ] Hero's Journey [+7 Points]
[ ]7: Perchance. [+1 Seal] Procession. [+3 Seals]
[ ] 9: Arcane. [+1 Seal]
[ ] 6: Forgotten. [+1 Seal]
[ ] Arcadian Scroll [2 Points]
[ ] The Shining Armor [9 Points]
[ ] Feather of Favor [2 Seals] (Turbocharged Estate of Evening)
[ ] Linear [8 Points] III (The Sunset's Seneschal)
[ ] Exponential [4 Seals] III (Estate of Evening)
[ ] Epic [+2 Points, Requires Hard or Dalliance Mode]
-[ ] Blessing of Refutation (Rivalry)
The overall plan here is to concentrate power into the Bearer of the Bands, with the Host and the Seneschal helping create the ideal training environment for further scaling. Valiant Blessing means that the Bearer always has a chance of making it through the Hero's Journey, and the Host's job is to use their save slots to make sure that he always threads the needle. The same general principle to Procession tasks, which they will hopefully have enough time to figure out a way to bind their Processions together.
No real idea on who the Hyperion pick should be for the Bearer, though. Can I poll the thread for suggestions?
e-
Here's a tentative blurb for Runic Bands.
[ ] Runic Bands [14 Points] - Two loops of lambent azure, coruscating with verdant and vermilion shine, graven with terrible runes. Adorning the right arm, DESCRIBE, under which all that would be mysterious is rendered mundane, and the left arm, DESTROY, under which all that would be mystical is turned to ashes. Similar to Kalymitous Runes, the abilities of both armbands are completely suppressed should the bearer practice any kind of systematic or formal supernatural influence.
DESCRIBE:
*Craftwork, per Kalymitous Runes, except that the bearer gains even more inspiration from destroying magical or mystic things, especially those of an ethereal or abstract nature, and the intuition and ability granted is more universal in applicability, expanding to encompass all mundane skills whose operation is circumscribed by physical principles and laws.
*Multiplies the bearer's abilities of mental analysis and deconstruction a hundredfold, applied after other modifiers. Stacks fully with other multipliers from Panoply, and can be improved over time with diligent training.
*For the insertion world and any other world which the bearer resides in for at least a year, they may choose to either DESCRIBE or DESTROY one of its native power systems. If they choose to DESCRIBE the system, it is fundamentally altered to render it entirely mundane and natural, perfectly suited to integration with the bearer's other technology and skills. The science of this power system always extends beyond what was achievable without its analysis. With sufficient research. new manifestations that might have been previously considered impossible could be created. This consumes an amount of inspiration proportional to the breadth and depth of the power system, and its criticality to the world's structure.
DESTROY:
*Catastrophe, per Kalymitous Runes, except that the destruction is much less prone to collateral damage, and demands purely mental effort and precision rather than relying on the strength and dexterity of the body.
*All effects that would harm the bearer or hamper their actions are automatically attenuated by the same destructive principle marhsalled by Catastrophe. This does not require active attention, but also does not activate when the bearer would regret it.
*A one hundred-fold increase in raw combat power, applied after other modifiers. Stacks fully with other multipliers from Panoply, and can be improved over time with diligent training.
*For the insertion world and any other world which the bearer resides in for at least a year, they may choose to either DESCRIBE or DESTROY one of its native power systems. If they choose to DESTROY the system, it is retroactively excised from reality on an ontological level, creating a massive cascade of revelations and revolutions as its achievements are discovered to be mere illusions and its greatest workers shown to be frauds and fakes. This never leaves anything behind which the bearer's current collection of scientific principles couldn't explain, and garners an amount of inspiration proportional to the breadth and depth of the power system, and its criticality to the world's structure.
For the turbocharge of Runic Bands, I'm currently thinking the x100s get turned into +3 ISH, like with the Runes, and that the DESCRIBE and DESTROY effects get refined so that they can be applied multiple times to the same world and can be applied part-wise to any individual power system, DESCRIBE-ing some aspects and DESTROY-ing others, allowing you steadily sculpt the aggregate into your ideal shape. Also probably the inspiration cost for Craftwork gets reduced the inspiration gain from Catastrophe gets increased.
The Bearer of the Bands
[ ] Hard Mode: Begin with 3 Points and 1 Seal.
[ ] Hyperion [7 Points, 1 Seal]
[ ] Wicked [+5 Points]
[ ] 5: The Chariot. [+1 Seals]
[ ]
[ ] 7: Perchance. [+1 Seal]
[ ] 1: Null Pointer. (Hero's Journey) [+1 Seal]
[ ] Reflection [2 Seals] (The Living Host)
[ ] Party [1 Seal] (Reflection (The Sunset's Seneschal))
[ ] Shroud of the Briarthorn [3 Points]
[ ] Feather of Favor [2 Seals] (Turbocharged Shroud of the Briarthorn)
[ ] Epic [+2 Points, Requires Hard or Dalliance Mode]
-[ ] Valiant Blessing
The Living Host
[ ] Hard Mode: Begin with 3 Points and 1 Seal
[ ] The Optimizer [+2 Points]
[ ] Paramount [+2 Points, Special]
[ ] Impulse [+5 Points] (Touch)
[ ] Hero's Journey [+7 Points]
[ ]
[ ] 10: Debt. [+1 Seal]
[ ] 8: Mutilated. [+1 Seal]
[ ] 3: Jackpot. You receive $1,000,000 and may make no further rolls in the Casino. [+2 Seals]
[ ] Qilin [5 Points]
-[ ] Hidden Dragon [{2} Seals]
[ ] Kalymitous Runes [6 Points]
[ ] Stone Rings [7 Points]
[ ] Feather of Favor [2 Seals] (Turbocharged Runic Bands, Turbocharged Static)
[ ] Static [2 Points]
[ ] Exponential [4 Seals] I - III (Save Slots)
[ ] Epic [+2 Points, Requires Hard or Dalliance Mode]
-[ ] Blessing of the Lone Wolf (Kalymitous Runes + Stone Rings = Runic Bands)
The Sunset's Seneschal
[ ] Hard Mode: Begin with 3 Points and 1 Seal.
[ ] The Optimizer [+2 Points]
[ ] Nemesis [+5 Points]
[ ] Hero's Journey [+7 Points]
[ ]
[ ] 9: Arcane. [+1 Seal]
[ ] 6: Forgotten. [+1 Seal]
[ ] Arcadian Scroll [2 Points]
[ ] The Shining Armor [9 Points]
[ ] Feather of Favor [2 Seals] (Turbocharged Estate of Evening)
[ ] Linear [8 Points] III (The Sunset's Seneschal)
[ ] Exponential [4 Seals] III (Estate of Evening)
[ ] Epic [+2 Points, Requires Hard or Dalliance Mode]
-[ ] Blessing of Refutation (Rivalry)
The overall plan here is to concentrate power into the Bearer of the Bands, with the Host and the Seneschal helping create the ideal training environment for further scaling. Valiant Blessing means that the Bearer always has a chance of making it through the Hero's Journey, and the Host's job is to use their save slots to make sure that he always threads the needle. The same general principle to Procession tasks, which they will hopefully have enough time to figure out a way to bind their Processions together.
No real idea on who the Hyperion pick should be for the Bearer, though. Can I poll the thread for suggestions?
e-
Here's a tentative blurb for Runic Bands.
[ ] Runic Bands [14 Points] - Two loops of lambent azure, coruscating with verdant and vermilion shine, graven with terrible runes. Adorning the right arm, DESCRIBE, under which all that would be mysterious is rendered mundane, and the left arm, DESTROY, under which all that would be mystical is turned to ashes. Similar to Kalymitous Runes, the abilities of both armbands are completely suppressed should the bearer practice any kind of systematic or formal supernatural influence.
DESCRIBE:
*Craftwork, per Kalymitous Runes, except that the bearer gains even more inspiration from destroying magical or mystic things, especially those of an ethereal or abstract nature, and the intuition and ability granted is more universal in applicability, expanding to encompass all mundane skills whose operation is circumscribed by physical principles and laws.
*Multiplies the bearer's abilities of mental analysis and deconstruction a hundredfold, applied after other modifiers. Stacks fully with other multipliers from Panoply, and can be improved over time with diligent training.
*For the insertion world and any other world which the bearer resides in for at least a year, they may choose to either DESCRIBE or DESTROY one of its native power systems. If they choose to DESCRIBE the system, it is fundamentally altered to render it entirely mundane and natural, perfectly suited to integration with the bearer's other technology and skills. The science of this power system always extends beyond what was achievable without its analysis. With sufficient research. new manifestations that might have been previously considered impossible could be created. This consumes an amount of inspiration proportional to the breadth and depth of the power system, and its criticality to the world's structure.
DESTROY:
*Catastrophe, per Kalymitous Runes, except that the destruction is much less prone to collateral damage, and demands purely mental effort and precision rather than relying on the strength and dexterity of the body.
*All effects that would harm the bearer or hamper their actions are automatically attenuated by the same destructive principle marhsalled by Catastrophe. This does not require active attention, but also does not activate when the bearer would regret it.
*A one hundred-fold increase in raw combat power, applied after other modifiers. Stacks fully with other multipliers from Panoply, and can be improved over time with diligent training.
*For the insertion world and any other world which the bearer resides in for at least a year, they may choose to either DESCRIBE or DESTROY one of its native power systems. If they choose to DESTROY the system, it is retroactively excised from reality on an ontological level, creating a massive cascade of revelations and revolutions as its achievements are discovered to be mere illusions and its greatest workers shown to be frauds and fakes. This never leaves anything behind which the bearer's current collection of scientific principles couldn't explain, and garners an amount of inspiration proportional to the breadth and depth of the power system, and its criticality to the world's structure.
For the turbocharge of Runic Bands, I'm currently thinking the x100s get turned into +3 ISH, like with the Runes, and that the DESCRIBE and DESTROY effects get refined so that they can be applied multiple times to the same world and can be applied part-wise to any individual power system, DESCRIBE-ing some aspects and DESTROY-ing others, allowing you steadily sculpt the aggregate into your ideal shape. Also probably the inspiration cost for Craftwork gets reduced the inspiration gain from Catastrophe gets increased.
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Yes, the contradictory nature of heroism as a free-standing quality is well documented. That people have to be sacrificed to the greater good, can be made morally acceptable provided the cause is noble, the need is desperate, and the individual in question can be convinced to take ownership of it, is also well-trodden territory.
The thing about it, is that tragic heroism is generally felt to be failed heroism for a reason. Unfortunate demise can ruin the implied context that makes heroism a functional ideal. Heroes overcome as much as they sacrifice. Divided, one becomes pretentious and the other meaningless. If the conflict resolved doesn't match up to the narrative impact of the sacrifice, you get cognitive dissonance.
This is all fairly straightforward, and Haeliel's support mostly reflects this. Her options were all support for heroic motivation, mostly by making sure that there were rewards for struggle instead of just more ass-whooping. She said as much before making the offer. In all likelihood, the reason the Vengeance option gives Haeliel favor is because it guarantees greater reliance on her in the future. It's a commitment to walk a path which will intersect hers favorably and often, of course she's going to appreciate it.
If she weren't dealing with a Tyrant, I might assume this train of thought to be paranoid. But as Hunger very much is, she would be remiss if she didn't situate herself to account for it. It's all incentives. That she's fundamentally virtuous doesn't mean she lacks for calculation or ruthlessness. If the Accursed's inner circle are to be believed, that only means she must possess them all the more for it.
- Location
- Louisiana
This is by far the most ridiculous tactic I've seen Freedom voters go for. You're taking a very clear correlation for Haeliel pluses, and turning her into some kind of villain. She's likely the most purely good character we've seen in Rihakuverse. She's the damn Seraph of Heroism, her entire schtick is saving people and spreading good throughout the universe through not evil means. Turning her into some Machiavellian schemer who supports Hunger turning evil is not only ridiculous it's downright disingenuous.
No. I'm saying she's a rational actor, not a fucking idol whose personality and agenda can be summed up in four words.
She is good at what she does, or she would be dead by now. That includes knowing how to manipulate Tyrants. That's where I think the pluses come from. Do not accuse me of willful misinterpretation of a fictional character for the sake of argument, unless you are willing to consider you might be doing the same to an actual person.
I have no idea what that guy's on about. I don't think she's fucking evil. I also don't trust labels to serve as an aegis in a gods damned war.
- Location
- Europe
I can't draw, make, or commision art, so I can only do the bonus.
Prototye - CYOA
It isn't perfect, but it should work well enough to use. If it doesn't... tough luck! :^
One of the biggest flaws in thinking when it comes to Vengeance is that failing to succeed there is a bad thing. Even if we somehow fail, unlikely as it is for Hunger to fail at making that 1%, we are still talking about infinite amount of time Hunger will spend doing stuff he likes - stabbing baddies, being a hero, chilling in Realm of Evening, making multiverse the better place, hanging out with Gisena and Adorie, waifing the embodiment of heroism etc. While a lot of his time will be be spent being a hardass guy making tough decisions, it will be a time well spent.
Mind, I am only talking about hypothetical scenario in which Hunger fails. I don't doubt that we will succeed given the odds.
On the other hand, the eternal paradise thing is something we did last quest, and something that is entirely uninteresting in context of Hunger. I also have no interest in Cat or their child, and if Hunger is ready to let them go, that is perfectly fine by me.
Man, Hunger and Haeliel having a kid would be hilarious. Your mom is Heroism and your dad is Tyranny. That would make for a great quest protag, wouldn't it?
Mind, I am only talking about hypothetical scenario in which Hunger fails. I don't doubt that we will succeed given the odds.
On the other hand, the eternal paradise thing is something we did last quest, and something that is entirely uninteresting in context of Hunger. I also have no interest in Cat or their child, and if Hunger is ready to let them go, that is perfectly fine by me.
Man, Hunger and Haeliel having a kid would be hilarious. Your mom is Heroism and your dad is Tyranny. That would make for a great quest protag, wouldn't it?
WHISPER
IS VERY TRANQUIL!
What would the kid be? Anti-Heroism?
WHISPER
IS VERY TRANQUIL!
The next quests protagonist should just have a really lame theme like Mud or even Spoons etc. and then grow so powerful that his consept goes up there with Time and Fate etc while being feared and respected throughout the Omniverse.
Now that is a true underdog story lol.
Now that is a true underdog story lol.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
More attempts at The Tactic:
1) Somehow convert the Forebear's Blade into a Halo, acquiring the forbidden Sword Halo advancement which would be enhanced by the Blood Halo. Also acquires the Halo Praxis. The Sword/Blood Halo now fully benefits from the Sword Praxis.
2) Use Armies of The Shogun to induct the Entire Human Sphere, then use Space/Law to convert Hunger's super-army/human sphere into a Halo (Human Halo?? Kingdom Halo?????) - A King's Kindom is after all, a Halo of the King. Apply Blood Halo to this combo. Also reduces the risk of death by Geas of Indenture. Synergizes with Rank somehow. Technically eliminates one of the benefits of Vengeance - True Sanctum from Inheritance is no longer relevant. Might also allow Hunger to slip past the Geas of Indenture. Potentially advance via gigaresearch by the Human Halo???
1) Somehow convert the Forebear's Blade into a Halo, acquiring the forbidden Sword Halo advancement which would be enhanced by the Blood Halo. Also acquires the Halo Praxis. The Sword/Blood Halo now fully benefits from the Sword Praxis.
2) Use Armies of The Shogun to induct the Entire Human Sphere, then use Space/Law to convert Hunger's super-army/human sphere into a Halo (Human Halo?? Kingdom Halo?????) - A King's Kindom is after all, a Halo of the King. Apply Blood Halo to this combo. Also reduces the risk of death by Geas of Indenture. Synergizes with Rank somehow. Technically eliminates one of the benefits of Vengeance - True Sanctum from Inheritance is no longer relevant. Might also allow Hunger to slip past the Geas of Indenture. Potentially advance via gigaresearch by the Human Halo???
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Rihaku
The Internet
This isn't accurate, the .1-1% chance is fully inclusive of the Forebear's attributes, heroism and ability to simply cut through. His odds without that would be infinitesimally small.
The true final odds of failure for the Forebear Returned indeed 99 - 99.9%. Of course this is still amazing given the prize of success.
- Location
- Louisiana
The issue with your mischaracterization that I have the biggest problem with is that it does 2 things.
It 1, makes large leaps in logic, for example the assumption that the only reason Haeliel approves of the action is because it heightens our reliance on her, or will allow us to help her in some way. That the basis of her favor for the action is for our utility to her. There is no evidence for this mindset, there is no example you can give of her being anything less than the embodiment of pure Heroism. The reason I said it was disingenuous is that the only reason I think you are taking that logic to such an extreme is because it discredits Vengeance as a bad option even further. It takes out one of the biggest examples of why Vengeance isn't an evil action, as has been proposed many times.
2, it does all of those leaps of logic while avoiding a very clear and obvious pattern of behavior. The most simple solution that genuinely makes the most sense is that Vengeance is a self sacrificial act that is done to help or save others and do more good in the universe. It is a heroic act, the kind that Haeliel tends to approve of.
[X] Vengeance
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Hunger's odds of beating a given Apocryphal proc are 99.99 etc. His odds of beating all of them and clearing out Tyrant's Doom are 1%, because that adds up over time.
My issue with Vengeance is that if we can't trust The Accursed with something as minor as how to spend the favor we owe him, how could we trust him with the ultimate shape of his victory?
Now, repeat the question, but replace 'we' with 'Hunger' and consider that Hunger's core personality with Inheritance is so uncompromising that Tyrant is essentially a non-factor. As in, a Curse shard from The Accursed. That would be like being so reckless you constantly proc I Am The Danger to disarm Apocryphal. His personality in Vengeance might not be distorted by Tyrant's Doom, but that doesn't preclude distortion inherent to him.
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