Shyrlonay.
Call it a hunch, but I'm pretty sure he's responsible for the Empire being founded, and I suspect he may still be controlling it in secret.
Fire Emblem: Last of the Manakete
- Thread starter SoaringHawk218
- Start date
- Fantasy
- Location
- Somewhere between here and there
If this follows the usual formula, he'll be the final boss.
- Location
- scrabbling
[X] You find yourself… liking the idea. How many times had you been worried about people not liking how friendly you are with Artemis? This way, they won't have any excuse! Besides, having some people who have promised to help you could be useful. You think you'll probably take him up on it.
-[X] You definitely need to talk about it with Artemis first. Hopefully tomorrow, if she has time.
Feudal oaths had to be re-sworn and re-negotiated regularly. That was typically just a ceremonial thing, since it wasn't often that a relationship between a lord and his knight would be upended, and knights IRL didn't tend to outlive or outpower their lords by much, but it wasn't an ironclad and unchangeable thing. Ryza obviously knows nothing about this but owning her home in the eyes of everyone else rather than having to work to claim and defend it sounds appealing.
-[X] You definitely need to talk about it with Artemis first. Hopefully tomorrow, if she has time.
Feudal oaths had to be re-sworn and re-negotiated regularly. That was typically just a ceremonial thing, since it wasn't often that a relationship between a lord and his knight would be upended, and knights IRL didn't tend to outlive or outpower their lords by much, but it wasn't an ironclad and unchangeable thing. Ryza obviously knows nothing about this but owning her home in the eyes of everyone else rather than having to work to claim and defend it sounds appealing.
Oh yeah, it's not an unarguable point, what with dragonslaying weapons existing, but it is a point. The average not-noble doesn't have a whole lot of negotiating power because at the end of things, they're still a human with a pointy stick. Meanwhile Ryza can turn into a lightning-breathing dragon who could effectively fly into unguarded (or really any not-heavily guarded) areas and start wrecking things, then turn back into a little girl and easily hide away. It's changes the balance of power a tad in that nobles have to at least listen to her arguments and try to have some form of negotiations over it, instead of being able to just sneer and go "filthy commoner" and have her executed on the spot for dirtying them with her filthy commoner gaze.
And that's not even mentioning other potential avenues of trade to gain control of her historical home without becoming a noble. Some of those scrolls she has would likely be seen as priceless stores of knowledge and Ryza could potentially trade them (or access to them) with the right parties for other forms of backing.
And that's not even mentioning other potential avenues of trade to gain control of her historical home without becoming a noble. Some of those scrolls she has would likely be seen as priceless stores of knowledge and Ryza could potentially trade them (or access to them) with the right parties for other forms of backing.
I suspect it's either that, or he's a big part of that historical threat of dragons that the Empire apparently banded against way back when it was founded.
I really don't get what everyone is so worried about, any and all immediate problems that could come from this are already our problems due to our relationship with Artemis and the fact we live here, with far less gain. We have it made right now, with the favor of the duke and the heir. We should milk for all its worth. This would put us in a prime position to fulfil Rhyza desires. IE get her home back, be happy with Artemis and look for other manaketes.
Looking at things from a longer term perspective like say next sixty years ish. We will in all likelihood play a significant role in the next duke/duchess' life due to the fact that we are close friends with Artemis. We would probably be like a lovable doting immortal aunt. So the kid won't just be a literal roll of the dice, "haha we rolled a one when I was born therefore I am evil. Lol." Doesn't make sense.
In the even longer term, like say three hundred years from now we would have guaranteed to have gone up in the social hierarchy, gain funds, and hard+soft power. After all this time we would likely play a pivotal role in the politics that happen in the duchy because would be a highly experienced individual with centuries of knowledge to bring to bear.
That and we are a goddamn magic dragon.
Rhyza would literally be living in the king maker scenario. Hell with enough time she very well could become the sovereign in all but name.
I really do not understand peoples worries one bit.
Looking at things from a longer term perspective like say next sixty years ish. We will in all likelihood play a significant role in the next duke/duchess' life due to the fact that we are close friends with Artemis. We would probably be like a lovable doting immortal aunt. So the kid won't just be a literal roll of the dice, "haha we rolled a one when I was born therefore I am evil. Lol." Doesn't make sense.
In the even longer term, like say three hundred years from now we would have guaranteed to have gone up in the social hierarchy, gain funds, and hard+soft power. After all this time we would likely play a pivotal role in the politics that happen in the duchy because would be a highly experienced individual with centuries of knowledge to bring to bear.
That and we are a goddamn magic dragon.
Rhyza would literally be living in the king maker scenario. Hell with enough time she very well could become the sovereign in all but name.
I really do not understand peoples worries one bit.
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Hestia&theCourt
Turns out we're plural too.
- Location
- In transition
- Pronouns
- She/Her
...why the hell would she want that? That sounds like exactly the kind of scenario she wouldn't want to find herself in, given her already-expressed dislike of people showing deference to her.
Either we trust his word or we don't. If he's the type to double cross then we want a permanent oath even less than we otherwise would.
Just because we like some people doesn't mean we need to swear lifelong oaths of service to them, we've been helping just fine without them so far.
Actually being a knight instead of an aligned third party could complicate and limit that. It certainly wouldn't have helped on our last mission.
Well its just a possibility of the future. The point was that people are acting very paranoid about how later dukes/duchess' might not be cool.
Hell I don't even think this quest is meant to last long enough for us to see them anyway.
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Paranoia and caution aren't the same thing. Ryza's young, but her context is one that thinks in decades even now.
IC wondering about the impact on her future surrounded by relative mayflies is legitimate, and OOC this involves taking on a lot of limits before we've even gotten to see the whole setting and what our options are.
No it wouldn't have, it was diplomacy and luck that got us through the last mission. They knew exactly our intent and who we worked for the whole time. Ryza having a title would have changed nothing, actually they may given her some more respect, due to having earned a knighthood.
Unless you have a plan for something else, all I see is wasted time and potential. Your basically saying their maybe something else for Ryza out there, and to that I say why would should we or her care?
And from there all I see are people acting weird about oaths... Again.
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- Pronouns
- He
Well, it could be the fact that dragon-slaying weapons will likely be everywhere, considering the humans around fucking slaughtered most of them during whatever war was waged.
Also this is best done personally. I don't really understand why you think a human approaching a manakete under cover wouldn't cause them to panic, considering they've been to hiding for millennia.
There is a lot more freedoms to be afforded to us as a 3rd party, not as knight.
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That will be a problem no matter what we do. What are we gonna take all of their anti-dragon weapons, if we don't work with the duke? Doesn't work as a counterpart. And I am under the impression that something happened to make the dragons mindless and aggressive. The exact opposite of Ryza.
Edit
Excluding the ones in hiding. (if there are any of course.)
The duke has some sort of intelligence network, we give them info on what to look for. They eventually learn something, we go there and we find out what it is. Much better than just wondering around like buffoons. So far I haven't seen anyone with a better idea.
Also on info security, due to Ryza's actions and nature keeping a lid on our secrets is pretty much gone at this point, so I feel like this is the best play.
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- Pronouns
- He
Eh, not necessarily. There are other nations that may want a dragon and when they get pissy about not having one there will be this whole other issue but I can see what ur getting at.
Regarding about them searching and running back without interacting with the manakete, not sure why anyone should take that quest tbh, because we don't even know if any manaketes aside from Ryza and BBEG are still around.
It's essentially a wild goose chase. Not to mention, I don't think Ryza knows the signs of other tribes as well as her own, so she could even be wrong about some things regarding that.
The spies are already out there doing thing for the duke, we are just giving them another thing to look out for while working.
As for the other nations thing, oh well I guess. We already are committed to at the very least protect Artemis anyway. And are on all likelihood committed to even more than that.
So that will happen either way.
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We could go exploring various human realms, visit that school Artemis' brother was at, spend some time establishing friends learning about the social expectations of the world before getting bound up in them too closely, or any of a dozen different things.
We're not the ones being weird about oaths here; they're kind of serious business, not just promises with silly words around them.
From my perspective, a feudal oath is to employment what marriage is to dating in the context of societies like this (yes it's a rough comparison at best, but it hits the right note at least).
Artemis is cool, but we've known her family for weeks at best and she isn't in charge right now.
Doesn't matter how much you like someone, you shouldn't get married after three dates. Especially when it's just as easy to keep going as it is and revisit the issue later when you actually have a better idea of what's going on. You certainly shouldn't do it with a shrug since you have no other immediate plans.
Similarly, swearing an oath subordinating your interests to someone else's for the rest of your life isn't something you just do. Especially when we fundamentally don't know the people actually involved that well, and Ryza herself barely understands what she'd actually be agreeing to.
I get where you are coming from on this at least. That said I would still be very disappointed if we did not put this opportunity to use. Ryza wants to live in and repair her old home this puts that to bed quite nicely. The home situation also helps us with some of the potential manakete problems away as well, such as where they would go if they need a place to live.
All that said i'm not all interested in leaving the duchy personally. I like Ryza's relationship with Artemis, I find their interactions very enjoyable. Leaving pushes all that back. Staying means we are right here at ground zero with the current plot lines. Essentially everything is happening here so why go elsewhere.
Lets say all of the above doesn't matter because we stay anyway even though we turned down the duke, at that point we would defacto be the dukes dragon anyway. And god forbid if something happens to Artemis poor Ryza would be beside herself I don't think she could take it, so like it or not we are have already picked a side. We might as well get all the benefits.
Also if I'm reading the story conventions right. The plot is about to really kick off, and shit will meet fan. Sending us on a grand adventure gathering allies to fight the big bad.
During said adventure being Artemis' knight sounds both adorable and awesome.
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Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
- Location
- The other side of the mirror
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
Gift from Mantrae to Ryza herself rather than going through the hands of Duke Letoro would do this just as well.
I agree that I don't see us leaving Artemis, but I like us as "legal owner of our home mountain", whether that's a freehold or a barony or whatever, more than someone oathsworn to Artemis and Agrithe proper.
I'm interested in hearing what Artemis has to say on the matter, tbh.
- Pronouns
- He
That kinda sounds like the beginning of Awakening, where Chrom made some random hobo the tactician of his army lol
FWIW, it sounds like Ryza's home isn't really Letoro's to give anyway. He states that as far as he can tell it is Legerius territory. I mean, he would be in a position to exert leverage over Mantrae to give it to us, but putting aside whether he'd want to expend that capital there he also thinks she'll give it to us without issue because of our role in helping Sypha.
To swing back around, I disagree with this. Having a title might have made them respect her more, but it also would make very clear her exact allegiance at the end of the day.
While Ryza's aligned, her promise was reiterated in the face of them questioning what she'd do if the duke decided to be an asshole. The implication being that she as an independent but aligned operator could and would take steps to ensure their charge for free. Not necessarily with violence, but we basically promised another prison break if needed there.
A knight is expected to get with the program when ordered, and that their oaths to their lords define their primary loyalty. A knight who promises to break faith with their liege is a person asking you to trust them while actively demonstrating a willingness to be untrustworthy.
Even if you want to deal with this plot, freedom in how we interact with it is still valuable. We don't need knighthood to do any of this, and taking it locks out many potential routes that we can't even see yet.
Being aligned doesn't obligate us to do what the duke and his successors say regardless of our ultimate opinion on the matter if it comes down to it. The additional benefits past the home we already have and the individual arrangements we already enter into isn't that significant relative to the price.
And again, I doubt it'd be that hard to get another offer if we want one later. Rare and powerful dragon sorcerers don't grow on trees, it'd be foolish to deny us if we change our mind later. This isn't a huge once in a lifetime offer of critical support, it's a permanent change to our situation for marginal gains compared to what we can already access.
Overall I'd rather continue Ryza's development and discovery of herself before making life changing decisions, and stay Artemis' pseudo-peer friend rather than her explicit subordinate.
Because that's an impact here too; notice the social hierarchy games we see getting played and the impact they have on the relationships that develop.
Being outside of that has compilations, but it also has benefits in how we relate to the people within it.
Edit:
You also didn't really address the the meat of my concerns.
To turn back to the wedding metaphor "But he's rich and the dress is cute" isn't a good reason to get hitched when you barely know someone. Which is basically what your argument boils down to.
Setting aside the metaphor again, this line of thinking is even less reasonable when we still have plenty of room for cooperation on other fronts.
Doing so before swearing anything binding would be good, since we'd get the direct benefits and gain an understanding of if he'll help us with what we want, how he's be willing to go about doing it, and what he might do to seve his own interests on the way.
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1 Nothing stops a knight of a foreign nation from swearing an oath what so ever. Especially one to get what their lord ordered them to get. Hell if anything knights are supposed to be held to a higher standard about such things.
2 Just as we would swear an oath to him be swears one to us. By asking us to break our oath we made in good faith, he would be breaking his. To reiterate especially one we made for the sake of him and the peace.
Hell continuing that thought he seemed down right respectful of us when we pushed him on getting Sypha home.
Your opinion is your opinion, I don't see the appeal but that's fair.
My main argument (in that post at least) is that unless we literally bail and leave like right now are as good as committed anyway. So why not get the most out of it?
Which if that's what you want whatever but i'm pretty sure we are already stuck on this ride. For reasons of plot and because leaving now literally goes against Ryza's short and medium term desires as well.
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A knight can make any oath they like, but context matters. If a knight swears an oath that might require they betray their liege then one way or another they're an oath breaker.
Again, context. As far as anyone else is concerned it would have been entirely legal to order Robin to come and take the kid regardless of what she or anyone else wanted - which we know since it was basithrbolan until Ryza expressed doubt - and Robin could argue but has to obey.
Making a secod lesser oath later and then claiming your liege broke faith first when it contradicts orders you already knew you had isn't going to impress many people.
Presumably the duke is good enough at managing people that he wouldn't be totally ham handed with us, but that's a presumption because we've talked to him directly three times now and barely know what he's like.
All that we know is that he's powerful, loves by his family, and willing to play dirty regularly enough to have a guy with the emotional palette of a serial killer on staff.
That doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad guy, but it does mean we don't know him well enough to make accurate character judgements yet, and he'd be the one calling the shots.
My argument is that we're not; there's a meaningful difference here, which is why the duke is making the offer in the first place.
Alignment isn't allegiance, and that matters to how we interact with people in and out of the dutchy. It also matters if we ever have strong disagreements, or want to do things that are useful for us but take the benefit of our abilities away from the dutchy for noteable periods of time.
We don't need this to get most of what we need. We're also not certain to actually get what you're after from it; you're gambling that the duke will be willing to help and that we won't get stuck in situations we dislike as his subordinate without actually having any reason to believe either of those things.
We haven't even seen what the rest of the world looks like either, so we don't know what other opportunities we're closing off just jumping on the highest commitment level to the first half friendly group to tell us their names.
Edit: fixed some things
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Hestia&theCourt
Turns out we're plural too.
- Location
- In transition
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The fact that we probably aren't going to say no doesn't mean we should sign away our legal ability to say no. I want Ryza to, at any point, have the freedom to say "fuck this shit, I'm out" without branding herself as a traitor or needing "permission" from her liege to do so.
Edit for clarification Partially because I miss read the argument.
The oath we made is directly responsible for how we got Sypha like the Duke requested. We fulfilled are of the criteria expected of us in a very bad situation. Being a knight does not change any of that.
The duke would have to be a brain dead idiot for complaining about us claiming victory from the jaws of defeat.
We are almost 200k words in at this point Ryza is super attached to Artemis, and the duke seems almost as cool as his daughter. Why should I wait another 50k just to satisfy some paranoia.
Worst case scenario he is a right bastard and we go angry dragon and leave. Either way seems like a fun read to me.
I'm like 80% sure that things about to get crazy with the plot. And I don't expect the duke to be around for most of it. So most of the things we arguing about are going to be moot anyway. In my opinion at least.
How do you expect us to go out and explore the world? We may be 90 something years old but we have the maturity and mentality of a child. Every adult we know lives right here. We have no assets to go and do that with.
Also I really can not see Ryza leaving Artemis, who as we know stuck here as the heir. Like Ryza really relies on her for emotional support, which make sense because she is a child. If that comes to past I legitimately might put this quest down. As much of this story is centered on their relationship, and I think that is the best part.
Ignoring all of that I still think the plot is going to kick up a notch soon, and that we have far less choice than we would like to believe.
Fair I've already given my reasoning. I mean who am I to dictate who you can and can't say "Fuck you." to. That is your mother given right damn it.
Oh btw the color of your text makes it rather hard to read.
EDIT for clarification we do have rights though, so yes we can say no to things. Like we aren't a slave to his whims.
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That makes no sense in context. If we were a knight from the start we wouldn't be able to reasonably make contradictory oaths and make them stick. We also wouldn't be reasonable able to make our lord promise us anything in exchange for following his orders. That's covered under the existing fealty system.
It isn't paranoia, you're making unsubstantiated assumptions about who he is and how he'll act. I'm point out that they have no substance and there are issues with that. Even if a worst case scenario doesn't occur you're still trading away a lot -literally the rest of Ryza's life by default- for a little before we've even seen the rest of the world.
"Failure is okay because watching things burn is fun" isn't a compelling argument to me either.
Doing other stuff that we want to do anyway, that contribute to our goals anyway, and don't preclude circling back if we like what we see isn't wasting time. It's just being sensible.
Which is based on nothing, and doesn't fit as an IC motive.
Even if it does go that way, things getting crazy is more of a reason to want freedom, because it gives us more control over how we respond.
Ryza just coming out of something traumatic and clinging to a familiar face is normal, but it doesn't have to stay stuck at that level of dependency. Ryza is a child, but one way or another she has to grow up fast now, and she's a lot more capable of it than a similar human kid would be.
With some time to recover and come to terms with things we can work out more of what we want to do.
I'm not saying up stakes and abandon everything either, just not immediately take the strongest possible binding when it doesn't gain us that much, and does cost us a lot. Not even just in potential future stuff either.
Right now being an outsider has some issues, but the benefit is that we have wiggle room in our social class. Once we give that up it's gone, and will be a factor in Ryza's relationships with people like Artemis.