Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

The Mare is a new style of power which uses the idea of the state-cult to bind together once unrelated and completely unknown peoples into a single unifying mission of world conquest.

"I heard the Mother of Harems calling, across the sea
Across the waste of waters, she calls and calls to me."

[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position].
 
Brothers and sisters, may I offer another caution against voting to attempt to export righteousness by force? In fact, there are two I would note.

The first is the problem of the flaws in Vaspukaran's ability to discern what is evil abroad. In our time in the Mission of Kutan, we found much common feeling and cause with the oppressed natives of the region. But to those unfamiliar with them, the very strangeness of their misguided modes of worship made them appear wicked. To plan to impose righteousness on the world by force relies on an unproven and untrustworthy assumption of infallibility in Vaspukaran's ability to distinguish what is wicked from what is merely strange. But God alone is infallible, and no soul here on the Spiral can be.

And when this is misdiagnosed - and over a sufficient span of time I believe this to become an inevitability, given the inescapable truth of human fallibility - we would become not the liberators but the oppressors ourselves. Surely this is an evil to be avoided.

The second is the problem of perception within the targets of our intervention. I have spoken before of how easily the foreign and the strange may attract aversion due to the very fact of its strangeness. Let us remember that abroad, WE would be the foreign and the strange. If, say, the Mare had sent their warships into our harbors to demand the end of even some manifest injustice within Vaspukaran - the end of penitence, say - do you truly believe this would have aided the cause of reform? Or would it have only triggered national outrage at the hubris and high-handedness of the outsiders, and tarred the reformers of Vaspukaran with the brush of implicit collaboration with an external enemy whether we wished it or not?

For us to intervene in another realm by force would be to make us the Mare in this analogy. Would we even truly be aiding reform, then, or only tainting it with the colors of an imperialist imposition?

Well said.

And we have all lately seen war in Nachivan. Mangled bodies, bereaved widows, orphaned children, shattered tenements. It was impossibly ugly, and there is no doubt whatsoever that we fought to defend ourselves in a righteous cause. That we had no other choice because our enemy had given themselves over to Evil out of the basest of motives. We fought and we won at a hideous cost. And that is why war should always remain a last resort, to be employed only when an oppressor cannot be illuminated or reasoned with.

And there is likely to be plenty of war yet in Vaspukaran. We have not liberated God's own Kingdom. Oblate Serfdom in the South and blood-caste privilege and oppression in the northwest remain. Too many corrupt Synods still oppress the min'yans while peasants fleeing the countryside have their backs broken in the factories of the cities. Autocephalities and Missions alike remain at a remove, and the inhabitants in the latter are more likely to be exploited than to be educated and uplifted by our priests. Until we have our own Kingdom in order, until illumination stretches to the farthest corners of Vaspukaran, we should remain humble in our dealings with foreigners. And we should not take the arrogant assumption that we have come upon the full Truth and are qualified to impose it upon everyone else, as though they have nothing to say about their fates and nothing we could learn from.
 
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[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position].
 
[X] We must spread the word of God to the world with vigor but with peace, so that the world will hear our message clearly! [Amalist Position].
 
God has given us fists for punching. The angel taught us how to punch so it pleases God. Finally this Holy Nation has given us targets to punch into face until they stop being punchable. Sisters and brothers, there are still too many to punch even in the Kingdom of God. Once our flag flies high, the others shall seek the truth as the people of Nachivan rose when the Six-Shin Aluf was presented to them from the battlements of Vikrag.

[X] We must be a beacon unto the nations, set an exemplar for all to follow, and not be entangled in outside schemes! [Traditional Pugilist Position].
 
[X] We must spread the word of God to the world with vigor but with peace, so that the world will hear our message clearly! [Amalist Position].
 
[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position].

After sleeping on the decision, I've settled on this. That said, I'm fine with the Amalist option winning, even if I prefer this stance more, as long as it's not the too-isolationist Traditional Pugilist position.
 
Minutes of the Nachivan Society of the Unburnt


It was easy to find a new meeting place (the debate was ongoing as to whether "temple" was appropriate) after the 30th of Tislev. Even weeks later, there were unused sections of High Priestly estates, abandoned townhouses of dead Juror officers, and probably-stable homes of mouflons ruined in the fighting. It was simply a matter of finding a piece of the world not currently in use and nailing a sign to the door declaring this a mekdash and, if possible, securing a lock and key.

The chosen new headquarters was one of the first, a few rooms in a wing of a sprawling manor. They had managed to claim a few rooms to themselves and now shared the rest of the place with an Iconoclast homeless shelter, a Confessionalist reading group, and a small family of Kutan mouflons who had provided them the strips of charki that now sat in the middle of the table. It was also, importantly, on the bottom floor, which Sister Sebitlil considered a necessity after the defenestration of Brother Hadad which had ended their last meeting and had them banished from the tavern.

She stood from her kneeling position against the low table and clasped her hands behind her back. "Thank you all for coming, siblings, dislocated fragments of the eternal, immutable being, and those who have wandered in off the streets. I am proud to see so many new faces, and so many old faces returning. Welcome to the new Unburnt Mekdash! I hope you all find the place suitable."

Ishme Sebitlil gave a beatific smile as she looked over the assembled party of trouser-wearing women, shirtless men, and wildly varying levels of tattoo and piercing all kneeling on folded blankets around the cheap wooden table. There were grunts of approval and the usual chorus of minor complaints.

"Good to hear," she said, ignoring all of them. "I know we are all eager to get on to business, but in light of the confusing nature of the past months and the new faces that have joined us in accepting oneness, Sister Geshtinana will begin with a reading of the minutes." She sat down to a satisfying chorus of disapproving muttering. Fighting had broken out over the charki, quickly broken up again by a chorus of jabs as Sister Geshtinana, a bald, tall, and underfed woman, stood up holding a clipboard.

"8 Tebet, 822", she began, "Attended by Brother Enki, Sister Geshtinana, Brother Hadad the Younger…"
Geshtinana's voice droned, which made her perfect for the task. The Unburnt were rowdy, and being organised in a coherent group felt like fire to them. This was how Ishme Sebitlil solved this problem: Put them in a sturdy room, give them food so they are slow and reluctant to leave, and make sure they pay just enough attention to their most soporific of siblings to keep them drowsy, but not quite asleep. Earlier attempts to achieve this state with meditation, incense, and alcohol were all met with failure.

"Urgent Business: Protocol Regarding the Deaths of Unburnt Siblings, presented by Brother Enki."

Sister Sebitlil looked around the table. There were dark looks from some of those that had been there the previous month. The Unburnt were a young sect and Zababa their first loss. The younger Hadad had suggested a burial at sea, that his body should be rendered untouchable by the fire of faith and that should be the end of it, that they should avoid treating the deceased with the gaudy pageantry of the Burned. The Elder Hadad had suggested the corpse be paraded through the streets, while his siblings and selves wailed and rent their clothes and made their despair known to all Nachivan.

"Discussion between parties swiftly becomes unproductive to a greater extent than allowed by the charter. Sister Ninlil suggests that the argument itself is adequate memorial to Brother Zababa. Motion to be revisited at a later date."

A later date as close to the World To Come as Sister Sebitlil could make it. It was a fire she was not looking forward to putting out, especially when others burned so strong.

"Further Urgent Business: Proposal to Update Position of Society Regarding Schismatic Burned,"

Fires such as this. This was where the previous meeting had gotten out of hand.

"Repeated similar motions now being made more urgent by events of 30 Tislev and the loosening of the Knot of Orthodoxy. Motion is made to update as well as clarify Unburnt stances regarding heterodox sects.

Multiple suggestions are raised ranging from a complete resistance to all forms of Burned organisation, citing a desire to immediately undo the Knot of Faith, to active collaboration…"

The gathered Burnt were once again becoming restless. Adversaries glared across the table at each other as Sister Geshtinana read their statements, determined to march ever forward with her duty even as her listeners stopped listening and resumed their arguments from the previous month.

"In response to Brother Enki's suggestion that reunification with the Burned may be possible under the principle that all things are one, Brother Hadad the Younger motions a desire to reunify his fist with Brother Enki's face."

Brother Enki slammed a fist on the table, knocking the last of the charki from the plate. Brother Hadad the Younger flinched. Sister Sebitlil clutched her hands together behind her back and maintained a beatific smile.

"Sister Ninlil expresses approval of certain tenets of Iconoclasm, suggesting that pressure and aid to Iconoclastic and Confessor groups might assist in lessening the importance of temples and other religious buildings in daily life. Sister Manzat declares sister Ninlil to be aflame and offeres to 'beat the fire out.'"

Sister Ninlil broke the charki plate over Brother Hadad the Elder's head.

"Discussion becomes unproductive. Brother Hadad the Younger defenestrated."

Brother Enki stepped across the table to tackle Hadad the Elder. In the chaos, she caught Hadad the Younger being launched through the window again, now at least onto a soft garden only a sepu down. Briefly, she considered whether this matter should be solved via trial by combat, and let the ones who can still speak afterwards determine the sect's position. This she discarded quickly. They are not Pugilists, no matter the angelforms Sister Ninlil was presently presenting Brother Enki.
It was a simple matter of finding the right solution and keeping the resulting explosive disagreement from tearing them all apart. As a group, and quite possibly physically given the enthusiasm with which they all seemed to treat the issue. Ishme Sebitlil stood and physically pulled Ninlil and Enki apart. Them, herself, and Geshtinana seemed to be the only ones present for the meeting still standing.

"It's clear that we're all very passionate about this situation," Sister Sebitlil interposed herself directly between the two glaring disciples, taking care to spend an equal amount of time on each of them with her smiling, admonishing gaze, "So how about we start cleaning up while Sister Geshtinana tends to the wounded. Then, you can all sit down with me one on one and discuss how we feel."
 
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[X] We must spread the word of God to the world with vigor but with peace, so that the world will hear our message clearly! [Amalist Position].

As has been said, if the Mare came to the Vasp and said they were conquering in the name of freedom we would fight them every step. Why would any other nation act differently to us?
 
As has been said, if the Mare came to the Vasp and said they were conquering in the name of freedom we would fight them every step. Why would any other nation act differently to us?
And we have all lately seen war in Nachivan. Mangled bodies, bereaved widows, orphaned children, shattered tenements. It was impossibly ugly, and there is no doubt whatsoever that we fought to defend ourselves in a righteous cause. That we had no other choice because our enemy had given themselves over to Evil out of the basest of motives. We fought and we won at a hideous cost. And that is why war should always remain a last resort, to be employed only when an oppressor cannot be illuminated or reasoned with.
Brothers and sisters, may I offer another caution against voting to attempt to export righteousness by force? In fact, there are two I would note.

The first is the problem of the flaws in Vaspukaran's ability to discern what is evil abroad. In our time in the Mission of Kutan, we found much common feeling and cause with the oppressed natives of the region. But to those unfamiliar with them, the very strangeness of their misguided modes of worship made them appear wicked. To plan to impose righteousness on the world by force relies on an unproven and untrustworthy assumption of infallibility in Vaspukaran's ability to distinguish what is wicked from what is merely strange. But God alone is infallible, and no soul here on the Spiral can be.

And when this is misdiagnosed - and over a sufficient span of time I believe this to become an inevitability, given the inescapable truth of human fallibility - we would become not the liberators but the oppressors ourselves. Surely this is an evil to be avoided.

The second is the problem of perception within the targets of our intervention. I have spoken before of how easily the foreign and the strange may attract aversion due to the very fact of its strangeness. Let us remember that abroad, WE would be the foreign and the strange. If, say, the Mare had sent their warships into our harbors to demand the end of even some manifest injustice within Vaspukaran - the end of penitence, say - do you truly believe this would have aided the cause of reform? Or would it have only triggered national outrage at the hubris and high-handedness of the outsiders, and tarred the reformers of Vaspukaran with the brush of implicit collaboration with an external enemy whether we wished it or not?

For us to intervene in another realm by force would be to make us the Mare in this analogy. Would we even truly be aiding reform, then, or only tainting it with the colors of an imperialist imposition?

As much as I'm alright with the Amalist option winning, I feel like this moralizing stance is approaching creating strawman beyond what the Iconoclast-Confessor option itself said. I do think that defining the Iconoclast-Confessor optio, a stance focused on fighting injustice everywhere, as inherently predisposed to wars of aggression when it could equally be able to go for subtlety in supporting liberatory rebellions (e.g. slave rebellions) is equally as unfair as painting the Amalist option as predisposed to impotent platitudes & leaving liberatory rebel polities to die when it is also capable of said methods of not-so-peaceful interventionism.

I think my stance is most similar to this one expoused by PotatoAnarchy:
I see it largely as a matter of emphasis and focus, kind of like the vote about whether we wanted to focus on the revolution's policies or the revolution's enemies - here Iconoconfessoclasm (trademark pending) focuses on finding enemies abroad and actively opposing problems, while Amalism focuses on finding points of alliance and syncretic unity (like Amalism do).

I don't think either is going to ignore a war of conscience against oppression out of hand in the way old pugilist isolationism might. I also don't think, for all I oppose it, that Iconoconfessoclasm is going to blindly dive directly into spiral-wide armed eternal revolution right away.
Edit: I added some posts I forgot to quote
 
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Oh bullshit, at least half of everyone voting for the Iconoclast-Confessor option is doing so because they want to play a Marxist sect. No one has produced any argument in favor of it besides "workers of the world unite" or "we're militant and radical so we have to choose the most radical position." There has been a consistent cadre of voters in this quest who have consistently voted for options that most resemble Marxism or have a Confessionalism tag because they clearly think Confessionalism is closest to Marxism. Only a fool would fail to see the obvious and I'm not inclined to be gaslighted over it.

Pretending like a militant emphasis on "confronting Evil" in other countries won't predispose toward violent interventions is also utter nonsense.
 
Oh bullshit, at least half of everyone voting for the Iconoclast-Confessor option is doing so because they want to play a Marxist sect. No one has produced any argument in favor of it besides "workers of the world unite" or "we're militant and radical so we have to choose the most radical position." There has been a consistent cadre of voters in this quest who have consistently voted for options that most resemble Marxism or have a Confessionalism tag because they clearly think Confessionalism is closest to Marxism. Only a fool would fail to see the obvious and I'm not inclined to be gaslighted over it.
Sure like three-four of involved Marxists do, & others opt for Amalism or Iconoclasm, but what does this have to do with what I'm saying about the way both options get misinterpreted? Nothing.

Who's even trying gaslighting you, this is quite the out-of-nowhere escalation.

Pretending like a militant emphasis on "confronting Evil" in other countries won't predispose toward violent interventions is also utter nonsense
No I'm not saying that? It's conflating it into wars of expansion & opening-up that gets me confused, since casting that move as almost exclusively what a hypothetical HaKhofshim-steered Vaspukaran would interpret such a stance is not considering the myriad subtle ways this hypothetical edit2: state can "fight injustice everywhere"?

Edit: It's a one-line stance with pretty wide breadth of application, unless you're being obtuse (intentionally or not) of that to the point of accusing someone of gaslighting I don't see how that's too complex to conclude
 
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"Choosing this option extolling the use of violence to spread our ideals to other countries doesn't make wars more likely" is quite an assertion.

In practice of course we'd either get a vote on a war or have no influence on events. But pretending the option that justifies using violence abroad for ideological reasons isn't about using violence abroad for ideological reasons and won't predispose the Sect toward favoring the use of violence abroad for ideological reasons sure is something. If you want to spread the revolution to other countries by force at least own up to it.
 
[X] We must spread the word of God to the world with vigor but with peace, so that the world will hear our message clearly! [Amalist Position].

For clarity, I'm voting for this because evangelism is cheaper than armed intervention.
 
[X] We must be a beacon unto the nations, set an exemplar for all to follow, and not be entangled in outside schemes! [Traditional Pugilist Position]

brothers and sisters, we must defeat the Five Evils within us before we can consider defeating the Five Evils outside us!

- wait, what's this? r*ytheon and l*ckmart have the highest corporate diversity scores based on a council that both of them explicitly sponsor?

well.

convince me that vasp's homegrown aerospace industry will produce 3000 black F-15EX fighter jets of God and then we can talk about getting my vote to change
 
[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position]."

I've been turned to Confessionalism by the recent argumentation smh. Lazar would be so dissapointed smh
 
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"Choosing this option extolling the use of violence to spread our ideals to other countries doesn't make wars more likely" is quite an assertion.

In practice of course we'd either get a vote on a war or have no influence on events. But pretending the option that justifies using violence abroad for ideological reasons isn't about using violence abroad for ideological reasons and won't predispose the Sect toward favoring the use of violence abroad for ideological reasons sure is something. If you want to spread the revolution to other countries by force at least own up to it.
Now this is more on topic, even if I am once again puzzled how this matter even approached accusations of gaslighting & Confessor-Marxist "cabal"...

But anyways to address this: No, when voting for this I never shied away from the fact that violence against others may be made necessary by conditions befalling the sect or this hypothetical HaKhofshim-controlled Vaspukaran. Pugilism, since its founding as A Fist to the Jaw of Evil by Pasan Ghadi, was never shy against the use of force in, well, fighting against evil. I also didn't say this make wars less likely, I said there are ways to achieve fighting against evil everywhere without plunging Vaspukaran into open warfare.

I think you're trying to get me to admit hypocrisy for something I'm never claiming to be? Again I repeat the conflation of the Iconoclast-Confessor option almost exclusively with American-style opening of Japan or British/Mare-style wars of conquests & subjugation is what I protest against.

Also, by wanting to spread revolution by force you mean as the liberal/proto-liberal Girondins in the French Revolution did? No, that's dumb & even before the liberals & socialists learned the lessons from their ill-fated attempts at "spreading revolution", wars of conquests or subjugation by way of those "sister republics" are already found to be very much different than say, supporting a national liberation revolt against imperialists (of which you can see there are many such imperialized places, and could definitely argue to include areas of Vaspukaran too. Why we need to apply decol^tm).
 
Oh bullshit, at least half of everyone voting for the Iconoclast-Confessor option is doing so because they want to play a Marxist sect. No one has produced any argument in favor of it besides "workers of the world unite" or "we're militant and radical so we have to choose the most radical position." There has been a consistent cadre of voters in this quest who have consistently voted for options that most resemble Marxism or have a Confessionalism tag because they clearly think Confessionalism is closest to Marxism. Only a fool would fail to see the obvious and I'm not inclined to be gaslighted over it.

Pretending like a militant emphasis on "confronting Evil" in other countries won't predispose toward violent interventions is also utter nonsense.

Look, while there are absolutely users who want to be confessors and focus on confessor options, I think it is a natural reality and outgrowth of the attraction of it for people. I cannot ultimately control preferences, though I can perhaps reduce votes which are unduly inferenced by the schismatic tag attached.

But this constant tension and underlying unpleasantness about Marxists imposing their will on the quest has to stop. I value all of my quest audience and I don't want people attacking each other on the basis of ooc affiliations. Ultimately if they do it is probably more a failure of vote design than anything else, as many of the posters you declaim have absolutely voted down ultraradical options they felt were not wise to go for or strategic.

This is a radical quest and it will attract radicals. That is the reality of it. What I do not want is for people to be bringing ooc anger about each other into it. Whatever your frustrations this is not acceptable.

If I offer options related to confession I do so in the expectation some people who like confession will go for it. That is not gaslighting or disengenous but quest design. If you do not like confession or want to focus on some other aspect of the vote, fine. But please stop attacking posters on this basis. It is undermining the atmosphere of the quest. Yes, they vote for those options partly based on their real-life beliefs.

But I am the QM, I am the one who chooses what happens. It is ultimately MY interpretation which is final. And I have made clear that while confession takes inspiration from Marxism, it is not. It is its own unique thing, and no one ideology purely dominates Marxism, because I do not really want it to. If people choose Confession on this basis anyways, they are free to be disappointed. That is a quest.
 
The idea that the I-C option mandates overseas imperialism is not supported by the text of the option itself. It's a broad statement of principles, one that's open for interpretation and likely to be further developed by later decisions. Claims to the contrary simply are not backed by the evidence or by how these decisions have played out in the past.
 
Now this is more on topic, even if I am once again puzzled how this matter even approached accusations of gaslighting & Confessor-Marxist "cabal"...
Wanting to get closer to confessors is also a perfectly legitimate choice? Like people were always perfectly open about liking confession.

The idea that the I-C option mandates overseas imperialism is not supported by the text of the option itself. It's a broad statement of principles, one that's open for interpretation and likely to be further developed by later decisions. Claims to the contrary simply are not backed by the evidence or by how these decisions have played out in the past.
I want our sect to be internationalist, that's how I read the option. This fearmongering about the internationalism is the latest "confessor scare" from a part of the quest electorate that wants a moderate-reformist course. Its fine to want that but it would be nice to advocate for positions instead of strawmanning what other people want.
 
The idea that the I-C option mandates overseas imperialism is not supported by the text of the option itself. It's a broad statement of principles, one that's open for interpretation and likely to be further developed by later decisions. Claims to the contrary simply are not backed by the evidence or by how these decisions have played out in the past.

It absolutely can be imperialistic, it is just isn't inevitable. Vaspukaran has constructed a polity the size of Africa mostly by religiously motivated expansion. It is a core tenet of the creed to build a universal empire of God's grace. It is not hard to see where liberation misapplied can become Vaspukarani chauvinism and hegemonic great-statism, just as 'spreading the message abroad with peace' can turn into soft infilitration and economic control of trade and beacon unto the nations can become hard-headed xenophobia and isolationism.

But I will say that yes, you can define it more later, but this is an important statement of principles. Everything you do is important. If you choose a more aggressive option HaKhofshim will angle towards more aggressive options. These options are not just aesthetic but help shape and define you. Even if you drop them later they will affect how people see you and who is attracted to your message.
 
[X] We must spread the word of God to the world with vigor but with peace, so that the world will hear our message clearly! [Amalist Position].

I personally support this for two reasons:
1) I really do like Amalist syncretism and find the general syncretism of the Amalgastene in general and the Amalists specifically a really interesting worldbuilding element.
2) As it stands, I fear Vaspukaran is looking into aggressive foreign policy is Vaspukaran looking to get its ass kicked by powers with militaries and societies that aren't some nightmarish tapestry of conflicting mutually exclusive chains of command, measurements, and calendars. It's entirely possible that I am misreading the military situation (also—Vaspukaran has an enormous coastline to defend, but the Collegium has a bigger navy; any conflict that draws in the Mare will need to address the tiny Vasp fleet), but I feel that the Amalist option lets us get a foot in the door with regards to exporting of our ideals and theology for a more aggressive export of the holy revolution later on while also building connections to and understanding of the spiritual conditions of other nations.
 
Marxism?
Hrrrm.
Well, for me personally…
As I said previously, I would remind you guys that a major reason behind how I voted was influenced by the Mate kicking the crap out of the Kingdom of God. We're not glorious enough to do the beacon thing, nor is our military strength recovered from that incident.

And frankly, after the way the Originating Principle basically tried to iron gauntlet strangle the country into following their views and got couped for it I think Vaspukaran can be said to have lost it's way, so that also weighs against the beacon.

So what do?

Well, I figure now is a good time to have moderated discussion over what constitutes good kingship. It holds the foreign influencers where we can see them versus having a Lady of the Mare suddenly show up to help us kick Sword-Alter in the face and surprise us all, but also opens up foreign ideas by which we can ideally strengthen our own philosophies and overturn Evils reliant on their exalted position to ward away the good and honest competition that would expose them for the Sins they are.

Beacon DOES sound tempting for the internal focus, and there are good reasons it's the traditional Pugilism stance, but right now Vaspukaran is operating from a position of weakness, and the vultures are circling- to try and shut them out risks them calling our bluff in a way that could shatter us, versus an invitation that gives them a juicy meal but no more then that, and doesn't leave the kitchens smashed and ruined for good measure!

Interventions CAN be done well, just look at the Iron wall in Germany, but there's reasons why it's not a common thing, and again, position of weakness, Mare kicked our Juries upside the head, potential for Evils to establish themselves via blind spots of Vaspukaran or by well-meaning citizens seeing us as an Evil instead of the saviors we intend to be…
 
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