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Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

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[X] Disavowal. Vashti is not a prophet, for the age of prophecy has ended, and the time of personalism must be put to the side in favour of the order of ordinary souls [Available due to Light and Darkness doctrine + Pugilist alignment].
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].
 
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Cassiemouse said:
Disavowal is not likely to be well received by Vashti. She believes she is a prophet and the reason she wrote us in the first place is because she did not like Qanam telling her to take the Patriarch's offer. And, to be honest, she is right. The Patriarch's offer is not good enough, not nearly. Our sages said so.
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Some of her people and her followers are telling her to get her head out of the clouds and just be a woman who want to help others and is doing great work.

If that's too much for her, then she needs to get her head out of her ass, and she definitely shouldnt be elevated, Incarnated or a Prophet. You are literally making the argument that this woman should not be told Elevation and that Disavowal is the only way to get her to keep her feet on the ground.
 
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I feel like Ravhood has been overlooked in the scrimmage here. She neatly fits in the model of Pasan Ghasi as a Rav coming from the people, while receiving instruction from one of the Angels. It would cement her status as a leader of the rural Mouflons without carrying the same theopolitical complications as proclaiming her a Prophet or opening the door to others to proclaim themselves as prophets. It still insures legitimacy can remain invested in the Grand Sanhedron and derived from the community of believers rather than a direct commission from God (even one ratified after the fact by success).
 
IamtooSleepy said:
You know, I feel like there is something to be say about how we receive a latter from a distressful women who ask us how to grasp with her new founded roles and we immediately menage to debate everything except what would the best for the women in question.

Like, which option would she actually want or how she would feel when we tell her her vision did not come from God or what advice can we give to prevent her from being too paranoid or stubborn and so on.
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Alright I will start.

Prophethood is what she wants, but many of her friends and close friends are telling her its a bad idea. So she feels stiffled. But if we tell her to go for it, she'll feel vindicated and go all Jeanne Arc. Which can be good or bad you know. But at the very least she will feel fulfilled and that's not nothing.

Incarnation is the answer her best friend offers her. If she goes with Incarnation, she will have the support of a lifelong friend. I'd say this is a decently mentally healthy place to be at.

Elevation, well. The Good. It integrates her into her people and community, even more, the nascent alienation she is feeling will be gone. But again the dangers of the feedback loop exist and I cant write that off.

Disavowal also helps her integrate into her community. It might disappoint her best friend who want her to be special. If hurts her beliefs that she is some sort of sage. Which can cause some emotional distress from both of them, how it will go I cannot say.

Ravhood, ravhood will probably be fairly healthy. She will still feel chained in some ways, but there should be enough support to keep her grounded. Mentally this is the least clear path, but if her friends and supporters can help her through it, it should be fine.
 
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Regency said:
Reminder that Mashyana & Yuhwa both did not vie for rulership the way Amalgast & Rip Tang Goo equates rulership alongside prophethood. Also, there's a reason Transmigrant is part of the doctrine of Elevation while also keeping in mind the nature of Khoffer "trinity".

In Elevation, Prophets are prophets in so far as they are acknowledged by the popular followers. Pempelune explained it far better than I in preceding posts, but it is essentially the idea of communal prophecy transmigrating its prophetic holy ghost into their chosen creature. The predestined retroactive nature alluded to by the QM & the in so far as condition also means Elevation provides a method for impeaching prophetic candidates in a way that justifies them retroactively as "they were false messengers", which is a step further than the implicit capability to impeach the Patriarchs in the Khoffer trinity idea
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Prophethood does not mean rulership, but Elevation does grant every popular leader the ability to declare themselves a prophet and thus rightfully claim that their decisions and vision and leadership are divinely inspired, and thus beyond the human doubts. Yes, technically, they are prophets only insofar as they are elevated by their followers, but this is hardly a method for impeaching them - their followers follow by definition, and it is always harder to decide you were wrong in the past to follow someone and cease supporting them than it is to continue to follow. And as I said, Elevation can easily exacerbate this tendency, because the leader you follow now theoretically has greater access to the Spiral of Truth.
 
Deadly Snark said:
It will lead to popular support being linked to prophethood. This means that so long as a large group of people supports someone, that person automatically becomes holy and all his actions becomes divine.
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Unironically what has already happened throughout the history edit: the world of the Kingdom of God. In retrospect, Elevation's contribution is, as Cetashwayo explained, the way it utilizes the idea of predestination to illustrate its position and the way prophets only hold that status as long as they keep support. An actual "Mandate is Lost"-esque scenario as "impeachment" and even rebellion against retroactively false prophets due to tyranny is thus made possible in a way no other prophethood doctrine offers.

IamtooSleepy said:
You know, I feel like there is something to be say about how we receive a latter from a distressful women who ask us how to grasp with her new founded roles and we immediately menage to debate everything except what would the best for the women in question.

Like, which option would she actually want or how she would feel when we tell her her vision did not come from God and so on.
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That's fair. On that matter, I think she could accept any response well except disavowal.

Deadly Snark said:
Reform is good, but going to the point of the High Confessionists and the French Revolution (ORDER OF REASON AND CHURCH OF THE SUPREME BEING) is where it's no longer reform.
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I didn't get to say this before, but High Confessors are, as much as their clock shenanigans in the Nachivan Uprising are endearing to me, not really a system-smashing sect. They explicitly utilizes existing levers of power & creates new one in the scope of the old system in the service of the Infallible Patriarchs and High Confessor interpretation of what a "World of Standard Time" means. True Confessors are ones who, akin to Political Iconoclasts, Militant Pugilism, & Mystic Amalism; approach it from a more bottom-up overthrow of rulers dynamic.
 
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It really isn't a question of Vashti's own ego. Vashti has little to no ego as an individual to the point where she has married herself to a symbolic entity, emphasizing her disconnection from normal human experience. She is not a person but an emblem. And she is troubled because she believes in God and she believes God or some entity is speaking to her directly. That is not something that can be easily overriden by appeal to political arguments. Disavowal would attempt to root itself in sacral Pugilist arguments around the people and the majority and debate and consensus, not tell her she should shove it.
 
Regency said:
I didn't get to say this before, but High Confessors are, as much as their clock shenanigans in the Nachivan Uprising are endearing to me, not really a system-smashing sect. They explicitly utilizes existing levers of power & creates new one in the scope of the old system in the service of the Infallible Patriarchs and High Confessor interpretation of what a "World of Standard Time" means. True Confessors are ones who, akin to Political Iconoclasts, Militant Pugilism, & Mystic Amalism; approach it from a more bottom-up overthrow of rulers dynamic.
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Reformers from high up smashing the system are functionally the same as reformers from down below smashing the system. Same end result the distinction is meaningless in this specific context.
 
Cetashwayo said:
It really isn't a question of Vashti's own ego. Vashti has little to no ego as an individual to the point where she has married herself to a symbolic entity, emphasizing her disconnection from normal human experience. She is not a person but an emblem. And she is troubled because she believes in God and she believes God or some entity is speaking to her directly. That is not something that can be easily overriden by appeal to political arguments. Disavowal would attempt to root itself in sacral Pugilist arguments around the people and the majority and debate and consensus, not tell her she should shove it.
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Hm. HMMM.

On that note:
[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to transcend her local origins.
[X] Disavowal. Vashti is not a prophet, for the age of prophecy has ended, and the time of personalism must be put to the side in favour of the order of ordinary souls [Available due to Light and Darkness doctrine + Pugilist alignment].
[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].

I'm riding with Etranger's vote, approval voting for Disavowal.

Deadly Snark said:
Reformers from high up smashing the system are functionally the same as reformers from down below smashing the system. Same end result the distinction is meaningless in this specific context.
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I don't think I agree. High Confessors if anything expands the capability of the 2nd Patriarchal system in the service of their Infallible Patriarchs. It's not really comparable to, say, True Confessors' aim to overthrow the demiurgic class, Militant Pugilists' fist against the jaw of evil (up to frequent armed resistance against Patriarchal institutions), Oshana-aligned Political Iconoclasts' aim towards ending Patriarch rule in the KoG, and...actually I haven't a clue what Mystic Amalists' radicalism differ from mainstream Amalists. Guess we'll see come Mekubalic Conclave!
 
Shard of Victory said:
What? No.
First, this is not what "reform" means. Second, philosopher-kings bestowing rights on people is fundamently different from mass movements.
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No elite Philosophers smashing the social fabric because of their ideal reforms is not different from the leaders of mass movements smashing up social fabric for their ideal reforms. The end result, the successes and failures look the same. The High and the Below are not split when it comes to that, but instead have ideas and influence flow in between.

A King can bring a golden age of reforms, or total failure and destruction, just as a Mass Movement can bring a golden age of reforms, or total failure or destruction. We know this from history.

The real distinction is not the origins of the reforms, but whether they succeed or are destroyed. Humans and human organizations function on a fundamentally similar basis because that's just how we function.
 
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Zeb voting to send Qanam away back in Kestvan and threatening to write about him said:
Working thus, I shall get the last laugh before this Second Vashti triggers the Second Flood and washes all away.
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To see so many of you recognize young Vashti's prophetic nature after all these months - truly a blessing, oh God! My blood is warmed, my skin is on fire. I cannot stay to debate this at length, Hadar says I'm "feverish" and should go rest, but I have two comments to make.

One: Vashti has come again as an agent of the Lord's vengeance - Vengeance belongs to the Lord, but we are his agents!

Two: I told you so! Didn't I?

[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].
 
[x] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[x] The Incharity of Man and the Woe of Woman. On the inequalities in wage and respect that pull women to the darkness.
[x] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[x] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].
 
The Patriarch is trying to contain Vashti's peasant revolt to a single palatine so that the freedoms Ischak mouflons have won do not become the rally cry throughout the kingdom. We know they would seek to erode what she has built over the course of time. We know that many cannot abide mouflon freedom and would seek to place them under the yoke of evil once more. We see the limitation of the Patriarch's wisdom in the trying to contain Ischak's legend and deny the truth of Vashti's prophethood. To prevent Vashti's rebellion from being stillborn we must ignite the souls of the peasantry. The truth she was revealed and the truth that we can only now grasp is the Doctrine of Elevation. Only this can tear the veil that prevents us from seeing the World to Come.
 
[X] The Rose That is all Thorns. On the cruelty that husbands believe is their right, and the vile darkness of abuse.
[X] The Incharity of Man and the Woe of Woman. On the inequalities in wage and respect that pull women to the darkness.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[X] Prophecy. Vashti is a prophet, and must conceal herself! [Available because of your Fundament Amalgast the Accelerant].
 
Cassiemouse said:
The Patriarch is trying to contain Vashti's peasant revolt to a single palatine so that the freedoms Ischak mouflons have won do not become the rally cry throughout the kingdom. We know they would seek to erode what she has built over the course of time. We know that many cannot abide mouflon freedom and would seek to place them under the yoke of evil once more. We see the limitation of the Patriarch's wisdom in the trying to contain Ischak's legend and deny the truth of Vashti's prophethood. To prevent Vashti's rebellion from being stillborn we must ignite the souls of the peasantry. The truth she was revealed and the truth that we can only now grasp is the Doctrine of Elevation. Only this can tear the veil that prevents us from seeing the World to Come.
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You've still not answered me as to how then we would deal with the Elevation of Prophet Burs as the Revelation of Military Glory and the Wealth of Young Bucks. Nor how we would deal with the Elevation of Prophet Slave Owning Prince and the Revelation of the inherent servitude of man and the moral good of Slavery.

She is the Incarnation of the Prophet Vashti to bring forth the Second Deluge of Freedom, to bring forth the Revelation of the Rites of Women, of Witches and the beginning of a new age of in the Spiral of the Truth, and the return of the other Prophets and Ravs. None of which would be amendable to slavery-serfdom or the military greed of Burs and his bucks.
 
Yeah, Elevation seems like a bad idea that'll give cover to pretty much anyone with a decent following who wants to their declare their cause holy.

I'm not sure Incarnation is better then Ravhood or Disavowal but I'll certainly take it over Elevation.
 
Deadly Snark said:
You've still not answered me as to how then we would deal with the Elevation of Prophet Burs as the Revelation of Military Glory and the Wealth of Young Bucks. Nor how we would deal with the Elevation of Prophet Slave Owning Prince and the Revelation of the inherent servitude of man and the moral good of Slavery.
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We would deal with them with steel and shot. They have wealthy and they have power. They do not need a new theological doctrine to declare themselves special and above others. On the other hand the mouflons of the kingdom need a philosophy that ignites their souls and gives them the resolve to see the World to Come. Vashti needs the anchor to her people because she has lost herself to become a symbol rather than a person. And we know that this does not mean anyone can declare themselves a prophet because their prophethood is revealed by the devotion of their followers and the victory of their cause.
 
Fundamentally Vasp society and cultures have many many fucking issues. The barriers they put over who gets recognized as a Prophet is a good thing.

Prophets are those who have accomplished the deeds that demonstrate to all without a doubt that they are a Prophet Ordained by God. This ensures that you dont get bumfuck warlords like Burs declaring themselves Prophet Warlords of the Continent because they have the Revelation of the Sword and are Ordained by the Gun. And then they are followed by a fanatic crowd of literal worshippers, this is how the Dictatorship of the Proletariat collapses and just becomes a Dictatorship nightmare.

Again we know this.

Either you have Prophets and there are strict qualifications that they must met. Or you don't have Prophets at all and discard the whole thing and go for Turbo Democracy.

Don't play this game of trying to have the cake and eat it too. I don't like Disavowal because I think it's destructive, but at least in its destruction, we can invest in the Sanhedron and its democratic principles as the new legacy. Elevation's destruction merely leaves behind a dozen Elected God-Emperors running around.
 
We are also giving this advice in confidence. Vashti will be well established before our doctrine will be examined by potential bad actors and by then they would look like poor imitators trying to capture her glory. To think that our doctrine will spread such that they will be ahead of her is odd.
 
Cassiemouse said:
We would deal with them with steel and shot. They have wealthy and they have power. They do not need a new theological doctrine to declare themselves special and above others. On the other hand the mouflons of the kingdom need a philosophy that ignites their souls and gives them the resolve to see the World to Come. Vashti needs the anchor to her people because she has lost herself to become a symbol rather than a person. And we know that this does not mean anyone can declare themselves a prophet because their prophethood is revealed by the devotion of their followers and the victory of their cause.
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It is one thing to declare yourself above others because you have wealth and power.

It is quite another to declare yourself a Holy Prophet Ordained by God, and therefore that your followers are the Chosen of God. Because your followers believe you are a Prophet and we believe that is the right path.

The Sword-Altar and the Originators had Wealth and Power. Yet it did not win them the war. The Pale Horse and the White-Gold were not won over to the side of Freedom because of the wealth and power of the Patriarch. They were won over because of the Divinity and Holy Legitimacy of the Patriarch as the Vessel and Creature of the Holy Ghost of Amalgast, the Prophet of God.

Burs with guns being a warlord can be dealt with by the faithful. Prophet Burs as a Holy Prophet of God on the same level as Amalgast and Vashti, which we know he is a Prophet because of Elevation. This means that we would have to acknowledge that so long as he has Steedeater and his Banners following him, his deeds are ordained by God, and going against him means going against the desires of the Manifold God.

Elevation does not demand that a majority designate the new Prophet, only that the Elevated Prophet has followers that will Elevate them. Meaning so long as any Elevated Prophet has any support, they are an Ordained Messenger of God, whose actions and words are transmitted to us from God.

There is a world of difference. Legitimacy and Soft power backed by God backing their Guns would make them unassailable lest we go against God. And at that point, we should have just gone with Disavowal, to begin with. Because that's what Elevation would have to end up with, only with more meaningless deaths.
 
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Yeah, Elevation seems to me a false democracy, likely to raise up autocrats with cults of personality. It's not the path towards actual democratic institutions.

It won't be secret forever and even if so, why give Vashti bad advice? It's not the most helpful path for her.
 
Cassiemouse said:
We are also giving this advice in confidence. Vashti will be well established before our doctrine will be examined by potential bad actors and by then they would look like poor imitators trying to capture her glory. To think that our doctrine will spread such that they will be ahead of her is odd.
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Bullshit, everything option will eventually spread. And be known to others. Because we are advising her to keep the fight going and keep the fire lit. Every option has risk and will put us against the Old and New Order, dont try to wave off the consequences by saying that they will not happen. That is denying reality because reality is not convenient to ideals.

Again if you want full Democracy, Populism and Pugilism, Disavowal is right there. I would even be willing to vote for that as a compromise. Your only complaint about Disavowal was that it would hurt Vashti's ego, which 1) a bad argument and 2) not something that will happen per Cetash.
 
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I think it is possible to overstate the case against elevation on the basis of demagoguery. Mere election by itself would not be sufficient basis to justify prophethood without some kind of mechanisms of control and law. Further if everyone started declaring themselves prophets the concept itself would be devalued and have less force. Prophethood has a deep sacral component to it. The concerns are there but they are neither inevitable or impossible to combat. Vaspukaran is a reasonably educated country with an emerging mass politics, so its going to be harder to just cynically claim the position like that.
 
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