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Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

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Like guys, the system of the Patriarch already has some democratic elements. You dont need to break the whole system to get what we want. Election breaks them. You need to simply expand and build upon what is already there.

Patriarchs by tradition used to be elected via the High Priesthood. Which is a copy of the election system of the Popes. Now that the High Priesthood is on the decline and disgraced, it will be extremely easy and necessary to change some stuff. A tweak that should serve everyone fine will be simply for the duty of electing-choosing a new Patriarch be given to the Sanhedron, probably a super majority. The body will thus elect in the future, both the Nasi and the Patriarch.

We can then force them to make the system even more accountable. By making is so that an Elder to the Grand Sanhedron also has to be voted in by the people. Or through the regional-local Sanhedron.

It's a logical progression of a system that already exists and fits neatly into Vasp's cultural and political systems. Which is the best way to implement Democratic reforms, because it doesn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Elevation of Prophethood basically sidesteps the authorities of the Sanhedron as well, which will royally fuck with a lot of things. Since that is the Democratic institution we want to build upon. Because you are basically neutering the foundation of a lot of its legitimacy.

Disavowal would actually work better because at least that doesnt give the Slave Princes and other factions the perfect tool to directly challenge the authority and legitimacy of the Sanhedron moving forward.
 
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We are in a revolution. If now isn't the time to take a sledge hammer to the existing institutions then that time doesn't exist. To some degree we have to provide novel and useful radicalism to stay relevant to the people we are talking to. There are tons of sects springing up everywhere. If we just play it middle of the road then no one is going to remember our name when the history is written. We have to decide when to take our shot and when it bide our time. And I think giving advice to Vashti is one of the best times to take our shot.
 
Incarnation should also be kept in mind in terms of the implications both positive and negative of an autonomous Yuhwan-influenced territory emerging on the border with Gushanaram, the place where Yuhwan witches are subject to pogroms.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Prophethood through popular support literally takes a hammer to the knees of that entire system. You are basically doing the equivalent of arguing of "the votes are fake" and "the voting system is broken" and "so the people should simply proclaim their leaders through populism", which ends with guns and a sword.
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We know the first bolded correct because the High Priests, actor of many of Vasp's problems & theo-capitalists extraordinaire, are the ones who monopolize the selection of Patriarchs after the revolution which installed the 2nd Patriarchate. The second bolded part is literally a factor in the Pugilist into relevance; that's what Pasan Ghadi's Ravhood was, seized by Pugilist war wagons against the Patriarchal oppressors.

Deadly Snark said:
If you wanna implement more democratic reforms, Incarnation is the path to go. Because it does not simply go through the motions of popular support, in that it looks like democracy. But actually introduces more democratic elements into Vasp's institutions neatly in a way that fits into their beliefs and traditions. That is how you do reforms, not breaking shit with the sledgehammer. We should know this by now.
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The 2nd Patriarchate stole the principle of Transmigration from Yuhwaism as part of their radical transformation from the previously hereditary aristocratic 1st Patriarchate's system which they definitely smashed. The Sanhedron, which is really just a compromise forum, has now supplanted the Grand Synod & led to the end of the Originators as a serious faction after de facto revolution in Nachivan. This kind of slow reformist mindset is asking for us to be outflanked by sects more poised to realize & exploit the ongoing Deluge of radicalization.

In addition, Elevation also, edit: like Incarnation, introduces democratization of Prophethood in a manner familiar to Vasp; the nature of predestination as retroactive justification for successful liberatory movements are what de facto has already occured each time a prophet leaves a mark. That included Yuhwa's movement further bolstered by martyrdom, & also could be utilized to explain why the original Vashti was the Prophet Who Was Not to Be.
 
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Cassiemouse said:
We are in a revolution. If now isn't the time to take a sledge hammer to the existing institutions then that time doesn't exist. To some degree we have to provide novel and useful radicalism to stay relevant to the people we are talking to. There are tons of sects springing up everywhere. If we just play it middle of the road then no one is going to remember our name when the history is written. We have to decide when to take our shot and when it bide our time. And I think giving advice to Vashti is one of the best times to take our shot.
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Again, you are not comprehending that Elevation of Prophethood specifically also attacks the Sanhedron. Which at this point has proven itself to be an entirely new institution that is reliably on the side of the Revolution and indeed given our history, connections and doctrine will be our tool to promote and guide the revolution.

Elevation would make our job harder. Because the Sanherdon is the one institution of power we can most easily enter and gain influence over. It will be really hard for a Sect-controlled Sanhedron to do anything if the Prophet of the South says Slavery is Good and Prophet Burs tell us to submit or get smashed by his force of loyal banners and some Angelic Banners.

Attack institutions yes, but dont nuke the ones that work for the revolution and can be used by us as well. Incarnation and Prophethood and even Disavowal are attacks on the institutions and force them to adapt and respond, which we can influence. There is a path that they can take that we can chart with some confidence in the end result. Elevation drops a bomb onto everything and cannot be controlled by anyone. Its not a good thing because ultimately a Revolution is a war and a war requires strategy and not fighting everyone at once.

Regency said:
We know the first bolded correct because the High Priests, actor of many of Vasp's problems & theo-capitalists extraordinaire, are the ones who monopolize the selection of Patriarchs after the revolution which installed the 2nd Patriarchate. The second bolded part is literally a factor in the Pugilist into relevance; that's what Pasan Ghadi's Ravhood was, seized by Pugilist war wagons against the Patriarchal oppressors.
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Yes again, this is why I'm suggesting we break the High priesthood's monopoly on that and divert that duty to the Sanhedron whose members will be elected. That's an easy reform that gives more power to an institution we will hopefully have control over or at least influence, and break the monopoly, and give more accountability.

There are ways to do reforms with the existing tools without destroying the entire political and cultural fabric of society and expecting that then things will work out because its DemocracyTM.
 
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Attaman Burs approves of the doctrine of Elevation, promptly retires to his chambers and comes out five minutes later saying that after long and hard soul-searching he has discovered that the loyalty of the steedeater standard reveals him to be the Turbo-Prophet, which is like a Prophet, but even moreso
 
The idea that "A revolution must take a Sledgehammer to all Institutions" sounds fine on paper until you remember that's the exact insanity the French Revolutionaries and the High Confessionists and the Infallibles fell into. Causing such widespread and deep distress to cultural and societal fabrics and even the people reject things and people need to step back to avoid the worse. Or else the reactionary forces will themselves surge back on popular support and put the reformers to the blade.

We know this is what happens.

Again Revolutions are Wars, you do not win a war by fighting everyone at the same time, you win a war and thus a revolution via strategy.
 
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I do think that 'don't distress the societal and cultural fabric' has basically sailed after the Midnight Bull as a position. You can argue not to do too much of course and you are already seeing consequences good and bad everywhere but the genie is out of the bottle and it will be a hell of a thing to even restabilize it.
 
Cetashwayo said:
I do think that 'don't distress the societal and cultural fabric' has basically sailed after the Midnight Bull as a position. You can argue not to do too much of course and you are already seeing consequences good and bad everywhere but the genie is out of the bottle and it will be a hell of a thing to even restabilize it.
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Well, I'm saying don't destroy the societal and cultural fabric.

Distressing it is fine. Stress causes systems, societies and cultures to adapt. That's fine.

Its destruction that fucks over everything.
 
Deadly Snark said:
The idea that "A revolution must take a Sledgehammer to all Institutions" sounds fine on paper until you remember that's the exact insanity the French Revolutionaries and the High Confessionist and the Infallible fell into. Causing such widepsread and deep distress to cultural and societal fabrics and even the people reject things and people need to step back to avoid the worse.

Again Revolutions are Wars, you do not win a war by fighting everyone at the same time, you win a war and thus a revolution via strategy.
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Indeed. As I said we need to know when to take our shot and when to bide our time. Now it is time to take our shot. In the past we took fairly moderate positions but in our support of Vashti we should dip into a truly controversial position that could win her the support of the poor and oppressed that she is going to reach out to. This position will eventually put us at odds with the Patriarch and because his half measures are not enough to properly resolve the situation we must help Vashti prepare to win this conflict.
 
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Cassiemouse said:
Indeed. As I said we need to know when to take our shot and when to bide our time. Now it is time to take our shot. In the past we took a fairly moderate positions but in our support of Vashti we should dip into a truly controversial position that could win her the support of the poor and oppressed that she is going to reach out to. This position will eventually put us at odds with the Patriarch and because his half measures are not enough to properly resolve the situation we most help Vashti prepare to win this conflict.
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There's nothing moderate about Incarnation. It's not a compromise position.

People dont seem to understand that Incarnation is also a fairly radical position. Its just one that could potentially fit into the existing structures. Though only theoretically. Incarnation is still controversial, the option literally says as much and it puts us and Vashti at odds with the Patriarch.

It also has the benefit of making it so that we dont have the deal with General Prophet Burs, and just has to deal with General Burs.

Also on what planet is the Midnight Bull a bunch of "half measures"? They were extremely radical even by the standards of people in this thread who didnt expect him to pass even a third of that.

Shard of Victory said:
With pugilist mass action. With popular war. With bullet and byonet. With punching Evil into the face!
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How will we do so in the case of Elevation turning the Sanhedron and the Mass Jury into our enemies because we decided to attack all the institutions?

Vashti and Metamoa are not a Maoist Guerilla, they dont have the movement and agility of such a group, and are in fact concentrated on Ischak. Which is a deadly thing for a potential Maoist Guerilla, to have a position that they cannot move away form less it cores their hearts out.
 
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I hear voices speaking loud and clear of prophets and elevation. I see bodies colliding in righteous debate and smell the sweat as they wrestle with universal truths and each other. I touch the spiral as my hands clutch around the midsection of a brother in the sect. I can taste Revelation as a fist collides with my teeth. It is the way to surge into action, to create with fists and voice! This is the HaKhofshim!

I don't have a strong and well based theological opinion in the prophet debate, but I assume there are at least a few less educated, more brawler type people in the sect, and they may take enjoyment in such debates.
 
[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].
[X] Disavowal. Vashti is not a prophet, for the age of prophecy has ended, and the time of personalism must be put to the side in favour of the order of ordinary souls [Available due to Light and Darkness doctrine + Pugilist alignment].
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].

Yeah, I think equating public approval with spiritual elevation is the kind of thing that can enter a dangerous self-sustaining loop. There are benefits to democracy and there are benefits to a belief in the God-guided leaders, but combining them may, in my eyes, easily lead to runaway reaction where the more you believe in and support the righteousness of your leader, the more inherently righteous they become, no matter their actual actions, and any doubt in them is squashed, because not only no one wants to think they were wrong, you literally can't be wrong as long as you just keep believing.
 
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agumentic said:
[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].
[X] Disavowal. Vashti is not a prophet, for the age of prophecy has ended, and the time of personalism must be put to the side in favour of the order of ordinary souls [Available due to Light and Darkness doctrine + Pugilist alignment].

Yeah, I think equating public approval with spiritual elevation is the kind of thing that can enter a dangerous self-sustaining loop. There are benefits to democracy and there are benefits to a belief in the God-guided leaders, but combining them may, in my eyes, easily lead to runaway reaction where the more you believe in and support the righteousness of your leader, the more inherently righteous they become, no matter their actual actions, and any doubt in them is squashed, because not only no one wants to think they were wrong, you literally can't be wrong as long as you just keep believing.
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Yeah I agree, Elevation is the shitty compromise because it combines the worst aspects of Populist leaders and God-guided leaders. Its tries to have its cake and eat it too, and will just end in something worse than the Infallibles.

If people want SUPER DEMOCRACYtm. Then just go for the broke for Disavowal. Dont compromise for Elevation which will cause more problems than it solves.
 
The truest form of both orthodoxy and populism is Disavowal. We should take Amalgast at his word: he was the final prophet and the age of prophecy is over. No inheritance of prophetic authority, no reincarnation, no new prophets. All authority arising from the will of the people and thus directed in accordance with their needs. All revelations and their interpretations to be judged in accordance with their utility to God's people. It's all very straightforward.
 
Populism is the soul of our Pugilist tradition. Our doctrine should follow suit. A distrust of populism is a distrust of democracy. The audience for Vashti's message are going to be peasantry who have no one to speak for them. They matter and we should make sure they know that they matter because their voice is our lodestone to true prophecy.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Yes again, this is why I'm suggesting we break the High priesthood's monopoly on that and divert that duty to the Sanhedron whose members will be elected. That's an easy reform that gives more power to an institution we will hopefully have control over or at least influence, and break the monopoly, and give more accountability.
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Until the separation of flock & priest are eliminated once and for all, the Sanhedron will always represent those foes we seek to overthrow. And I'm speaking as someone supportive of that Patriarchal electoral reform. Eventually the 2nd Patriarchate will be an outmoded system, & we need to prepare sufficient parallel structures outside of formal government. Such as a Metamoa, whether energized by the idea of Incarnation or Elevation.

Deadly Snark said:
Distressing it is fine. Stress causes systems, societies and cultures to adapt. That's fine.

Its destruction that fucks over everything.
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Sometimes we don't want particular governing systems to adapt, since starting anew would actually solve the underlying issue instead of further kicking the can down the road until the Real Cool Zone happens. Societies and cultures can and have outlived outmoded systems.

Deadly Snark said:
Are a Theocratic Slave State and a Theocratic Military Junta somehow more just systems?
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Nowhere does Shard argues that they are better where are you getting this jump in logic.

agumentic said:
Yeah, I think equating public approval with spiritual elevation is the kind of thing that can enter a dangerous self-sustaining loop. There are benefits to democracy and there are benefits to a belief in the God-guided leaders, but combining them may, in my eyes, easily lead to runaway reaction where the more you believe in and support the righteousness of your leader, the more inherently righteous they become, no matter their actual actions, and any doubt in them is squashed, because not only no one wants to think they were wrong, you literally can't be wrong as long as you just keep believing.
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Reminder that Mashyana & Yuhwa both did not vie for rulership the way Amalgast & Rip Tang Goo equates rulership alongside prophethood. Also, there's a reason Transmigrant is part of the doctrine of Elevation while also keeping in mind the nature of Khoffer "trinity".

In Elevation, Prophets are prophets in so far as they are acknowledged by the popular followers. Pempelune explained it far better than I in preceding posts, but it is essentially the idea of communal prophecy transmigrating its prophetic holy ghost into their chosen creature. The predestined retroactive nature alluded to by the QM & the in so far as condition also means Elevation provides a method for impeaching prophetic candidates in a way that justifies them retroactively as "they were false messengers", which is a step further than the implicit capability to impeach the Patriarchs in the Khoffer trinity idea

As an aside find it very interesting the creature doctrine continues to persist after Cetashwayo revealed that the HaKhofshim has considered the idea no longer useful. I assume it's because Vashti's expanding it outside its inital scope; which only applied to Santsarran.
 
Oh! Also keep in mind whichever option you vote for, Vashti is gonna interpret it however she wants. IMO the most explosive potential interpretations by the Reaper include; displacing the Patriarchate with a new form of the Kingdom of God (Prophethood & Elevation), the same thing but as the reincarnation of Yuhwa (Incarnation), a popular armed opposition against Santsarran the creature (Ravhood), and however the fuck she interprets Disavowal.
 
@Cassiemouse

Incarnation is not a distrust of Populism. Nor is Disavowal. Incarnation creates another pole of Prophethood and is literally a populist appeal to Witches, an extremely oppressed underclass. Disavowal is well, Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

Literally, all our choices are Populist in some fashion.

Again, if you want maximum Populism go for Disavowal.

I'm not arguing against Populism, look at my arguments for Incarnation. They are inherently populist and democratic. I'm arguing that going for a specific brand of Populism that has the most chances of ending in insanity is not a good idea. Reform is good, but going to the point of the High Confessionists and the French Revolution (ORDER OF REASON AND CHURCH OF THE SUPREME BEING) is where it's no longer reform.

All the arguments in the world cannot change the fact that Elevation is a terrible compromise option that will make things worse. It will lead to popular support being linked to prophethood. This means that so long as a large group of people supports someone, that person automatically becomes holy and all his actions becomes divine. This means stuff like Slavery and Genocide also become divines when done or ordered by these people.

Just because its "popular support" doesnt mean that wont happen. That people will leave just because those horrors are done. That's not how human mass psychology works. When people choose a leader, they stick by them and the rally effect and mob mentality mean they dont fall apart.

That assumption that "if they do X their support will leave them" has never borned out in reality. Because that's now how the human mind works.

This is not even to mention the selection effect, where as the people who choose such a leader will both feel invested to keep going and are the type of people who would be okay with those horrors anyways hence they choose a leader, who is now divine, who would be more willing to do it.

I'm begging people. If you want Ultraradical Democracy Populism, switch or multiple vote for Disavowal. I dont like Disavowal, and it still causes issues. But the ones it creates are fairly easy to deal with compared to the can of worms from Elevation.
 
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You know, I feel like there is something to be say about how we receive a latter from a distressful women who ask us how to grasp with her new founded roles and immediately menage to debate everything except what would the best for the women in question.

Like, which option would she actually want or how she would feel when we tell her her vision did not come from God or what advice can we give to prevent her from being too paranoid or stubborn and so on.
 
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Disavowal is not likely to be well received by Vashti. She believes she is a prophet and the reason she wrote us in the first place is because she did not like Qanam telling her to take the Patriarch's offer. And, to be honest, she is right. The Patriarch's offer is not good enough, not nearly. Our sages said so.
 
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