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Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

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Adhoc vote count started by Deadly Snark on May 7, 2022 at 3:12 PM, finished with 120 posts and 75 votes.
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If there's anyone left who hasn't voted. Preferably focus on the Heavenly Mount or the Karogen Academy. If I had to choose I would say the Heavenly Mount. Because I think the Amalist Radicals will probably help the Pale Horse and if we lose the Patriarch in these opening moves, we could wind up with our allies turning into enemies in the political chaos.

But both are things that only we can really do with a lot of manpower and both are important to not die.
 
I think we need more manpower at the actual Sanhedron. Supporting the push is important but there needs to be a Sanhedron left that Sarbadgar can relieve.

Using the Elders of the Sanhedron would be far worse than losing the Patriarch. If it comes the worst the Patriarch is going to be a martyr but losing the Sanhedron would cripple the whole fledgling revolutionary wave.
 
Anchises said:
I think we need more manpower at the actual Sanhedron. Supporting the push is important but there needs to be a Sanhedron left that Sarbadgar can relieve.

Using the Elders of the Sanhedron would be far worse than losing the Patriarch. If it comes the worst the Patriarch is going to be a martyr but losing the Sanhedron would cripple the whole fledgling revolutionary wave.
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We have 11 votes for the Sanhedron and Cetash reminded us multiple times that there are other Sects fighting to defend them as well. Its not nearly as denuded of defenses as the Heavenly Mount or as critical to the war effort as the Academy.

And no losing the Patriarch would be far worse. Because he has to be elected and there are people with guns, shedding blood and killing for power. Burs, Morsi, and Sarbadgar could immediately turn into our enemies even in a victory if he dies.
 
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Anchises said:
I think we need more manpower at the actual Sanhedron. Supporting the push is important but there needs to be a Sanhedron left that Sarbadgar can relieve.

Using the Elders of the Sanhedron would be far worse than losing the Patriarch. If it comes the worst the Patriarch is going to be a martyr but losing the Sanhedron would cripple the whole fledgling revolutionary wave.
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You misunderstand what the Sword-Altar Standard is pulling here. They want to seize the Patriarch into their physical custody, so he can be coerced to order the Sanhedron disbanded and for the Faithful to stop their resistance. That might not be enough to sway the Radical factions but it will make the moderates and less committed citizens of the city who have been swept up in events put their arms down. That is their "win condition" for this, a second Temple Coup, and so they must be prevented from realizing it.

The Sanhedron is also very important but every armed Sect and crowd nearby will be running toward it, and the more numerous moderate forces will rally there first. We aren't alone, it's important to remember, but we might very well be the nearest armed force that can do anything to delay the Jurors from storming the Temple Mount. That's why intervening there is so important. The Sanhedron is conversely not under quite as immediate a threat and will only be a secondary focus for the Sword-Altar Standard.
 
If nothing else, these next few turns are going to be very hectic and beautiful with all the sects nominally putting aside their differences to pulverize the Sword-Alter and put their Standard to torch, at least I hope. And this will be the perfect point to radicalize all the nonpolitical workers, all we have to do is point at the dirtbags that shot their friend and family and tried to kidnap the Patriarch.
 
It should also be noted that if the Patriarch dies or is taken by the Sword Altar. That is it for Vaspukuran unity, harmony, and stability. So much so that we have a good chance to immediately enter into a warring states-warlords period. Which nobody wants and we can ill afford now because we would be crushed when the titans smash into each other.

A Martyr is a good excuse for armies and far-off provinces to rebel and makes their own warlord states. Especially if the ones who took him are universally hated members of the core.
 
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Deadly Snark said:
We have 11 votes for the Sanhedron and Cetash reminded us multiple times that there are other Sects fighting to defend them as well. Its not nearly as denuded of defenses as the Heavenly Mount or as critical to the war effort as the Academy.

And no losing the Patriarch would be far worse. Because he has to be elected and there are people with guns, shedding blood and killing for power. Burs, Morsi, and Sarbadgar could immediately turn into our enemies even in a victory if he dies.
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The Jury made it pretty clear the Sanhedron is the main goal of their operation. Pale Horse is leaving the academy and pushing towards the Sanhedron precisely because its the central point of this whole affair, both militarily and symbolically.

The Sword-Altar is going to be hesitant to kill the patriarch. It would be a giant L for them as defenders of the status quo. The whole spiel about him being misslead etc. makes that clear.

Also @Cetashwayo you mentioned that Sword-Altar kinda has troops keeping the patriarch hostage. Do we know if hostile jurors are already inside of the Holy Mount.

@Cavalier Blatantly taking the Patriarch hostage and extracting a faux dissolution of the Sanhedron is not going to work if the Sanhedron survives. The Sanhedron itself is a symbol of liberation by now.

If the Sword-Altar destroys the Sanhedron the Patriarch is left without a powerbase. If the Sanhedron survives and Sword-Altar takes the Patriarch hostage people will rally behind the Sanhedron to free the Patriarch.
 
Sword-Altar killing the Patriarch wouldn't just make them look bad - it'd be a complete death sentence for them. They'd have murdered God's vicar on Earth. You can't just replace a Patriarch with a snap of your fingers and have the new guy tell people to go home and live peacefully; they'd have to call a convocation, get a bunch of high priests into war-torn Nachivan, and survive for the days or weeks of deliberation while the entire city's baying for their blood.
 
Anchises said:
The Jury made it pretty clear the Sanhedron is the main goal of their operation. Pale Horse is leaving the academy and pushing towards the Sanhedron precisely because its the central point of this whole affair, both militarily and symbolically.

The Sword-Altar is going to be hesitant to kill the patriarch. It would be a giant L for them as defenders of the status quo. The whole spiel about him being misslead etc. makes that clear.

Also @Cetashwayo you mentioned that Sword-Altar kinda has troops keeping the patriarch hostage. Do we know if hostile jurors are already inside of the Holy Mount.

@Cavalier Blatantly taking the Patriarch hostage and extracting a faux dissolution of the Sanhedron is not going to work if the Sanhedron survives. The Sanhedron itself is a symbol of liberation by now.

If the Sword-Altar destroys the Sanhedron the Patriarch is left without a powerbase. If the Sanhedron survives and Sword-Altar takes the Patriarch hostage people will rally behind the Sanhedron to free the Patriarch.
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Blaming the Sanhedron is their smokes-screen excuse for taking the Patriarch. What, you think they are gonna be so dim so as to say directly "heyo guys, we are gonna coup the Patriarch and make him our bitch"?

This is a classic language for when a military faction wants to take the head of state and the Unifying figure under their control, and gain political control via that control. "This person who claims to defend the Emperor is a traitor and abuser. But do not worry good people, we the righteous defenders will take the Emperor under our protection and ensure that his true Will and Justice is enforced."

As for "taking the Patriarch Hostage is not gonna work". Yes it will. Or at the very least the Sword-Altar believes it will, because that's how they seized power 70 years ago in the first place. Through an armed Palace Coup, and then using their control over the Patriarch to enforce political victory.

You are right that its likely to not end that way, its going to be far more chaotic like a warlord era, but the Sword-Altar and Grand Synod do not know that. So they are not going to fix something that isnt broken.
 
natruska said:
Sword-Altar killing the Patriarch wouldn't just make them look bad - it'd be a complete death sentence for them. They'd have murdered God's vicar on Earth. You can't just replace a Patriarch with a snap of your fingers and have the new guy tell people to go home and live peacefully; they'd have to call a convocation, get a bunch of high priests into war-torn Nachivan, and survive for the days or weeks of deliberation while the entire city's baying for their blood.
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"The Patriarch was killed by the servants of the False Sanhedron. We did everything we could and moved as fast as we could to save him. But alas, we were weak and unworthy, may God curse us. At least we got revenge and executed his enslavers and killers, but that does little to change our failure. But now we must move forward to insure the Patriarch's last will is put into motion through the Holy Grand Synod"

Yes, its blatant. Yes it probably won't work.

They'll still try it.

You misunderstand the situation. They opened fire on a Holy Day. They are all in. No matter how blatant and no matter how shameless, so long as they have a chance to win, they'll take it and not let it bother them.

This is a potential warring states scenario. Warlords don't have shame. They either win or they die.
 
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@Deadly Snark

Kapp-Putsch or the Soviet hardliners are the actual historical example to look at. Like if we beat the Sword-Altar at the Sanhedron they are going to look impotent and weak. Remember that orthodoxy doesn't really have any effective fighting formation besides Sword-Altar. If they come full force at the Sanhedron and fail taking the Patriarch as a hostage is going to be meaningless. Sword-Altar would be an increasingly isolated and weak group of hardliners that failed to destroy the actual center of political power.

Sword-Altar being beaten in a straight fight by the Sanhedron is going to shatter the illusion of power their whole plan relies on. Killing the Elders would reinforce it.
 
Anchises said:
@Deadly Snark

Kapp-Putsch or the Soviet hardliners are the actual historical example to look at. Like if we beat the Sword-Altar at the Sanhedron they are going to look impotent and weak. Remember that orthodoxy doesn't really have any effective fighting formation besides Sword-Altar. If they come full force at the Sanhedron and fail taking the Patriarch as a hostage is going to be meaningless. Sword-Altar would be an increasingly isolated and weak group of hardliners that failed to destroy the actual center of political power.

Sword-Altar being beaten in a straight fight by the Sanhedron is going to shatter the illusion of power their whole plan relies on. Killing the Elders would reinforce it.
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If we have the power to beat them as the Sanhedron. Then we should beat them at the Heavenly Mount to prevent them from shattering the legitimacy of the Patriarchs and the Unity of the State.

The end result you are so proud of is actually very bad for us. Because there are two possibilities.

1) The Patriarch is taken, and they use him to force a dissolution. Then they lose at the Sanhedron. Okay, but now the Patriach's legitimacy is fundamentally undermined. and the Sanhedral elders like Morsi, Burs and Sarbadgar will fight it out to see who's really got the power and legitimacy to rule. And the provinces start to get into it and we are running towards a general civil war.

2) The Patriarch is dead, and now the Conformers, the Reformers and the Reapers duke it out alongside their military supporters, Morsi, Burs and Sarbadgar to elect their preferred Patriarch. And now whoever wins, the other factions might be tempted to recycle the Sword-Altar's tactics. Legitimacy and unity take a hit to the knee and we might get a big messy civil war.

Exactly like what happened to the Soviets.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tztm4N4rYL0&ab_channel=MasterofRoflness

And of course, that's not mentioning the possibility of the Sword-Altar's plan working because we allowed them to get the Patriarch, and all our allies in the city get massacred. While the conformers stand down because nobody actually wants to bleed and die if they can avoid it. That's also possible. They cannot be allowed to have the Patriarch.

The Sanhedron is defended by many many sects. Only we can prevent them from taking the Patriarch. Focus on what only we can do.
 
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@Deadly Snark

Your approach is fundamentally flawed because of two factors:

1) The unity of state is already shattered. We already have kinda-sorta regional warlords like Metamoa. Steedeater is assembling and the news from various other provinces are grim indeed. Your reasoning has strong "closing the barn door after the horse ran out" vibes. A vibrant, triumphant Sanhedron that is the symbol of a new more democratic and diverse Varuspakan might be the only thing able to slooowly guide the horse back in the barn.

2) Since when are we suddenly in the business of trusting the Patriarch? Orthodoxy going full gamer kind of tied him to the cause of reformism but his behavior doesn't fill me with confidence. The crackdown by Sword-Altar and Nachivan's reaction to it is going to be important in determining who is the top dog in the Sanhedron-Patriarch relation and I know which party I want to be stronger. The Sanhedron rallying most of the radical, combat-ready sects and streets of Nachivan to its defense is going to be a strong symbol we kind of require if we want reformism to work. We chose to back the Sanhedron and trust in it as an institution capable of delivering the change Varuspakan needs so our top priority now should be defending it.
 
Anchises said:
@Deadly Snark

Your approach is fundamentally flawed because of two factors:

1) The unity of state is already shattered. We already have kinda-sorta regional warlords like Metamoa. Steedeater is assembling and the news from various other provinces are grim indeed. Your reasoning has strong "closing the barn door after the horse ran out" vibes. A vibrant, triumphant Sanhedron that is the symbol of a new more democratic and diverse Varuspakan might be the only thing able to slooowly guide the horse back in the barn.

2) Since when are we suddenly in the business of trusting the Patriarch? Orthodoxy going full gamer kind of tied him to the cause of reformism but his behavior doesn't fill me with confidence. The crackdown by Sword-Altar and Nachivan's reaction to it is going to be important in determining who is the top dog in the Sanhedron-Patriarch relation and I know which party I want to be stronger. The Sanhedron rallying most of the radical, combat-ready sects and streets of Nachivan to its defense is going to be a strong symbol we kind of require if we want reformism to work. We chose to back the Sanhedron and trust in it as an institution capable of delivering the change Varuspakan needs so our top priority now should be defending it.
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I'm well aware the unity is already shattered.

That's why control of the Patriarch is so important, because even though the unity is shatter the position still holds power in the hearts of many. its something to look up to even if the reality is different.

Lmao you think I want to trust him? Do you think I want to rely on him to reform?

I'm playing this by Warring States-Warlords Rules. The Patriarch is useful. Therefore we have a better chance of winning, if we save him and we have control over him.

If you throw an asset like that away at the start of the civil war, you are deliberately crippling yourself. There is a lot of prestige and legitimacy to be gained in the periods after the fighting in the city to have a reputation as the Saviors and Defenders of the Patriarch. More than enough to get us seats in either this Sanhedron or a new one (but again the Sanhedron is defended by many other sects). More than enough to allow us to expand the Sect's reach, popularity, connections and resources exponentially.

That history, that reputation, and control of the Patriarch would also serve us well in making alliances, compromises, and political settlements with the rest of the country, and give our attempts to put things back together with a shitton of legitimacy among many of the old guard. Because we sure as hell dont have the military power to kill them all. And it gives us a shield against Sarbadgar.

And if we are his Protectors, we have levers on him to direct things, not too blatantly, to our cause.

But we can only do that if he's alive and if he's not already discredited as a puppet of the Sword-Altar, and only if we are seen as heroes.

This is a golden fucking opportunity, and you want to just throw it away.
 
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Anchises said:
@Deadly Snark

Your approach is fundamentally flawed because of two factors:

1) The unity of state is already shattered. We already have kinda-sorta regional warlords like Metamoa. Steedeater is assembling and the news from various other provinces are grim indeed. Your reasoning has strong "closing the barn door after the horse ran out" vibes. A vibrant, triumphant Sanhedron that is the symbol of a new more democratic and diverse Varuspakan might be the only thing able to slooowly guide the horse back in the barn.

2) Since when are we suddenly in the business of trusting the Patriarch? Orthodoxy going full gamer kind of tied him to the cause of reformism but his behavior doesn't fill me with confidence. The crackdown by Sword-Altar and Nachivan's reaction to it is going to be important in determining who is the top dog in the Sanhedron-Patriarch relation and I know which party I want to be stronger. The Sanhedron rallying most of the radical, combat-ready sects and streets of Nachivan to its defense is going to be a strong symbol we kind of require if we want reformism to work. We chose to back the Sanhedron and trust in it as an institution capable of delivering the change Varuspakan needs so our top priority now should be defending it.
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Metamoa is not remotely indicative of larger centrifugal tendencies or warlordism. @Cetashwayo made it very clear in the update that the Ischak situation was unique to the geography and history of the Ischak. It is the country's first successful revolt in ages and its success was an enormous shock to Vaspukaran. That is why it was so important. The Patriarch also has people close to him, such as Kenturah, whom the Jury of Nachivan can seize and use to threaten him. Remember that Patriarchs are supposed to not have any family themselves, and that Santsarran is an exception to this. No one is saying the Sanhedron isn't important, but the Sanhedron's legitimacy without the Patriarch is very questionable, whereas the legitimacy of the Patriarchate is backed by hundreds of years of tradition and scripture going back to Amalgast himself.

Deadly Snark said:
Snip.
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Let's please calm down a little to avoid risking poor @Cetashwayo's thread getting Staff attention. Just saying this as a user to another, not as an Administrator, that is.
 
FWIW I don't think it's that intense, don't really have an issue with discussion tenor right now.
 
[X] Fortify the streets around the Heavenly Mount.

Here's hoping vote's not closed. Also. Attacking on a holy day. Like, really?
 
Frankly we're caught in a position where if the Sword-Altar manages to either capture the Patriarch or arrest the Sanhedron, we lose. If they capture San and put a gun to his head, he'll tell the crowd we're relying on for leverage to go home, and they'll probably do it, if belatedly. If they arrest the Sanhedron, it will be a political defeat we are not ready to recover from.

We have to think big and hope we can do both, or we don't have a path forward in this crisis.
 
Chehrazad said:
It is the country's first successful revolt in ages and its success was an enormous shock to Vaspukaran.
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Yeah and that's what worries me? Like I think we can agree such a shocking event is going to send shockwaves through the country and might inspire other secessionists or radicals. With Steedeater assembling there is already a very real threat of warfare the political center doesn't control and doesn't have the means to control.

DocMatoi said:
in-context, this is like a catholic saying "Since when do we think the pope knows anything"
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I'm with the Iconoclasts on that one. Personalism and worhsip of the Patriarch is cringe idolatry. I'm one of these folks the kids call ultra-radical.
 
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